Royal Canadian Navy Discussions and updates

[StingrayOZ]

Canada has a lot more experience with nuclear power than Australia and that includes constructing nuclear reactors.

Canada certainly has a much better nuclear base to build from.

But Candu reactors were all designed and built basically over a generation of people ago who are now all buried. Also the design and operation Candu is pretty much the opposite of nuclear submarine reactor design, CANDU is all big and low enrichment, while SSN tend to be fed from weapons grade lines to make very small, dense and powerful reactors. A nuclear weapons program may be more beneficial to SSN reactor design than experience with power plant reactors.

I tend to think Argentina and Brazil obsession with building SSN is more about keeping their nuclear scientists busy than it is delivering useful needed capability.

But there is load of experience there in Canada, and attracting talent from its south would be fairly easy too.

If there was political unity and the will, nuclear subs could be developed in Canada. Neither exist and it is questionable if Canada will exist in its current form twenty years from now.

I don't think Canada has the clear need yet. The US is definitely in their region and the northern territories are sparsely habituated. TBH, I think SSN are too far for Canada politically, socially, alliance wise, etc. Conventional submarines aren't terrible, and depending on what you want to do (like sit in choke points), they make more economic sense than SSN.

For Australia, if we just wanted to protect bass strait, conventional submarines would be fine. Better than SSN. More bang for the buck. But Australia wants to control multiple choke points and chase things in different oceans and seas, that are all very far away. If Canada got 6 really good conventional with AIP, that would address a significant amount of their concerns. Some subs are better than no subs.

 

[John Fedup]

Some subs are indeed better than no subs. Twelve SSKs is probably a reasonable number given our coastal requirements along with possible Pacific deployments from allied bases. There are pollies here that think some is a number between zero and four which is close to none IMO.

 

[kato]

I think they should have just ordered basically the same build as Germany, and spun the additional requirements into another platform.

"Bonn" is actually a pretty good comparison there, since from the German perspective that singular ship only shares the "basic design" (the steel dimensions, sorta) with the original class. The internals (accomodation, ship operations etc) are all specced differently, the propulsion layout was updated but designed to fit within the same spaces, the aviation facilities accomodate different helicopters, the deckspace forward was modified since Bonn doesn't carry a containerized hospital (but instead has more regular cargo container space) etc.

Building AOR ships similarly to the specs of another country, but within the same "general requirements set" would/should have resulted in a project cost and timeline likely identical to Bonn.

 

[John Fedup]

Building AOR ships similarly to the specs of another country, but within the same "general requirements set" would/should have resulted in a project cost and timeline likely identical to Bonn.

Likely true except in Canada, even with no modifications the build would still be over budget and late.

 

[shadow99]

My greatest concern for the Canadian Navy is the age of the Halifax class frigates.

Commissioned from 92-96 will put HMCS Halifax at 40 years of service when the first of the River class arrive. Assuming they start to arrive in 2032.

Is it even realistic to keep the Halifax class running that long? With the amount of heavy maintenance required, along with equipment becoming obsolete at what point does the cost becomes so high for it make sense to replace them with a tier 2 light frigate? The savings on manpower alone from 240 ish down to 90 crew is significant.

Considering the length of time to build the River class... and a quickly deteriorating world a Korean or Japanese build of light frigates would see us 3 ships by 2030 bringing our fleet back to 15 ships in a time of need.

Being able to retire HMCS Halifax is a bonus, being used for parts for the remaining ships in class.

 

[John Fedup]

My greatest concern for the Canadian Navy is the age of the Halifax class frigates.

Commissioned from 92-96 will put HMCS Halifax at 40 years of service when the first of the River class arrive. Assuming they start to arrive in 2032.

Is it even realistic to keep the Halifax class running that long? With the amount of heavy maintenance required, along with equipment becoming obsolete at what point does the cost becomes so high for it make sense to replace them with a tier 2 light frigate? The savings on manpower alone from 240 ish down to 90 crew is significant.

Considering the length of time to build the River class... and a quickly deteriorating world a Korean or Japanese build of light frigates would see us 3 ships by 2030 bringing our fleet back to 15 ships in a time of need.i

Being able to retire HMCS Halifax is a bonus, being used for parts for the remaining ships in class.

This is the same situation that Australia faces with Anzac frigates albeit their strategic environment is more pressing. Depending on which selection Australia makes, (Japanese option likely), Canada could consider 3 Korean options to ease the disappointment of losing the Australian requirement. Better still, buy three of their large destroyers and await the River class. Probably get an awesome deal on them if we buy submarines as well. Bottom line, there should be a minimum of 15 “war ships”.

 

[shadow99]

Interesting article on South Korea to build testing facility for nuclear submarine reactor using low enriched uranium.
This would probably a good time for Canada to join forces in this project of high importance.

South Korea to build testing facility for nuclear submarine reactors by next year

South Korea to build testing facility for nuclear submarine reactors by next year.

armyrecognition.com

 

[ACpilot]

First indication that the upcoming River Class Destroyers will be equipped with the Mk.49 launcher for the RIM-116 RAMs.

 

[Underway]

So the inflation adjusted cost for German build is half as much as what Canada is paying.

Germany doesn't include life cycle costs, or ammo, or initial trial costs or numerous other things. With whole project accounting over the life cycle of the ships, and accrual accounting, Canadian defence procurements are apples to celery comparisons with other countries.
Given the fact we don't have a shipbuilding industry and we're adding a bunch of costs to the contract (because our Gov't does accounting different then anyone else in the world) half as much isn't really that surprising. Not to mention defence inflation is about 5-10% higher then the base inflation rates.

We are building off the Bohn design. The Berlin and the Bohn are quite different ships that were built about 10 years apart. The Germans also provided a helpful list of improvements that they recommeded for the Bohn, like the ability to store ship from both sides (aka installing clamshell doors not just on the port side).

First indication that the upcoming River Class Destroyers will be equipped with the Mk.49 launcher for the RIM-116 RAMs.

Link? I would love to see where this came from.

 

[John Fedup]

Apparently Russia has taken notice of Canada's intention to buy 12 SSKs. Doubt our next government will make the decision in its first term and 12 is never going to happen albeit that is the number to aim for. Don't think Russia has much to fear....from Canada at least.

Russia takes notice of Canada's plan to buy 12 submarines that could lie silent under Arctic ice (msn.com)

 

[shadow99]

Apparently Russia has taken notice of Canada's intention to buy 12 SSKs. Doubt our next government will make the decision in its first term and 12 is never going to happen albeit that is the number to aim for. Don't think Russia has much to fear....from Canada at least.

Russia takes notice of Canada's plan to buy 12 submarines that could lie silent under Arctic ice (msn.com)

Being deadbeat Canadians the chance of new subs is very low.

I think Junior is hoping to buy Australia's Collins class subs when they retire.

 

[76mmGuns]

Apparently Russia has taken notice of Canada's intention to buy 12 SSKs. Doubt our next government will make the decision in its first term and 12 is never going to happen albeit that is the number to aim for. Don't think Russia has much to fear....from Canada at least.

Russia takes notice of Canada's plan to buy 12 submarines that could lie silent under Arctic ice (msn.com)

Russia has no urgency to take action. Canada will bend over backwards to delay and delay. Honestly my bet is not a single new sub before 2055. Any takers?

 

[John Fedup]

Russia has no urgency to take action. Canada will bend over backwards to delay and delay. Honestly my bet is not a single new sub before 2055. Any takers?

Probably won’t be a Canada in its current form by 2055.

 

[John Fedup]

Being deadbeat Canadians the chance of new subs is very low.

I think Junior is hoping to buy Australia's Collins class subs when they retire.

Junior will be long gone before Collins’ retirement. After the Upholder and used Hornet acquisitions, doubtful any future government will buy used kit. Politically easier to do SFA.

 

[Sender]

Russia has no urgency to take action. Canada will bend over backwards to delay and delay. Honestly my bet is not a single new sub before 2055. Any takers?

Not from me. This is a program of record, and there is a project office. Canada is getting new subs. The only question is how many, but it appears that the goal is a minimum of 8 (Stealth, lethality, persistence: Commander RCN talks submarines in Halifax | Trident Newspaper.)

Canada launching process to acquire up to 12 conventionally-powered submarines - Canada.ca

Canada is the country with the largest coastline in the world – an underwater surveillance capability is crucial to our security and sovereignty.

www.canada.ca

 

[John Fedup]

Not from me. This is a program of record, and there is a project office. Canada is getting new subs. The only question is how many, but it appears that the goal is a minimum of 8 (Stealth, lethality, persistence: Commander RCN talks submarines in Halifax | Trident Newspaper.)

Canada launching process to acquire up to 12 conventionally-powered submarines - Canada.ca

Canada is the country with the largest coastline in the world – an underwater surveillance capability is crucial to our security and sovereignty.

www.canada.ca

I agree subs should be a priority acquisition. However for this to happen, other programs will likely be cut due to the financial mess junior has created. No future government will have the spine to keep all the promises for new defence kit, short of direct involvement in a pending war or the electorate waking up to the rapidly deteriorating geopolitical environment and demanding action, something that seems remote to say the least.