Australian Army Discussions and Updates

OldTex

Well-Known Member
1 approx every 2 months doesn’t seem that bad.
2023-3(3)
2024-9(12)
2025-6?(18)
2026-6?(24)
2027-6?(30)
2028-6?(36)
2029-4?(40)

+14 Chinooks
+5 H135 (5 year lease)
From memory the first 3 went straight to SF (6 AAvn?) so it is likely that more than half of the 9 expected to be delivered this year will also go there (to ensure SF have the capabilities they desire) with the rest going to AAVN TC at Oakey. If that turns out to be the allocation then it will be end of 2027 before Army has a full squadron in 5 AAvn to support 1, 3 and 7 Bde.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
It seems to me, that this government's priority is definitely not the ADF. Everything is being delayed as long as possible. I'm surprised they didn't do a review on the rotary force. If Canberra asked the US for Blackhawks asap, we would get them asap. They are in no rush. The AUKUS subs are costing us, and the G.O.D is avoiding spending money today, more interested in getting the tax cuts through, so average Joe stops hating on them.
It depends what lens you look through. It could be argued that those who promise, but don't fund defence are worse.

Can't go into too much detail but if defence were a company the previous management would be guilty of operating while insolvent.

The books have been cooked with a multitude of projects deliberately under budgeted. If you recall, this is the exact situation that led to the failures that resulted in the Rizzo review. There were simply not the resources budgeted to do the work required, hence too much of the work did not get done.

I'm trying very hard not to get political, but this sort of underestimating cost, and over commuting without factoring in required resouses, occur more under one side than the other.

Just as layingvup or retiring, capability that is muddling along is the characteristic of the other side.

It's the different mind sets of the two sides, one believe in having, even a flawed capability sort of alegedly available, that can be upgraded, reconditioned or repaired when needed. The other side is more of the view if it's not actually working properly it should not be used and the money saved used for fixing higher priorities.
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
It depends what lens you look through. It could be argued that those who promise, but don't fund defence are worse.

Can't go into too much detail but if defence were a company the previous management would be guilty of operating while insolvent.

The books have been cooked with a multitude of projects deliberately under budgeted. If you recall, this is the exact situation that led to the failures that resulted in the Rizzo review. There were simply not the resources budgeted to do the work required, hence too much of the work did not get done.

I'm trying very hard not to get political, but this sort of underestimating cost, and over commuting without factoring in required resouses, occur more under one side than the other.

Just as layingvup or retiring, capability that is muddling along is the characteristic of the other side.

It's the different mind sets of the two sides, one believe in having, even a flawed capability sort of alegedly available, that can be upgraded, reconditioned or repaired when needed. The other side is more of the view if it's not actually working properly it should not be used and the money saved used for fixing higher priorities.
Stop making excuses for them. It's Hawke and Keating All over again. Remember the $22.1 bn budget surplus that Labor claim?
This government is just buying one thing.....time. Review review review.
At the start of the election, Albo promised to act on defence now! Well, he has kept one promise....he acted on defence.
Anyone still optimistic about the surface warship review? Honestly?
 
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Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Stop making excuses for them. It's Hawke and Keating All over again. Remember the $22.1 bn budget surplus that Labor claim?
This government is just buying one thing.....time. Review review review.
At the start of the election, Albo promised to act on defence now! Well, he has kept one promise....he acted on defence.
Anyone still optimistic about the surface warship review? Honestly?
Not excuses, just laying out the established patterns. There have been exceptions on both sides, but what I have outlined is the established pattern.
 

Armchair

Well-Known Member
It seems to me, that this government's priority is definitely not the ADF. Everything is being delayed as long as possible. I'm surprised they didn't do a review on the rotary force. If Canberra asked the US for Blackhawks asap, we would get them asap. They are in no rush. The AUKUS subs are costing us, and the G.O.D is avoiding spending money today, more interested in getting the tax cuts through, so average Joe stops hating on them.
The current gov has an order from a supplier placed by previous government for new build aircraft that have certain specifications. It has maintained that order. That is, on this matter, the new government is following what the previous government decided (there are separate debates about Taipan grounding).

The implied alternative in vonnoobie’s question of cancelling (part of ?) the new build order and acquiring surplus US Army helicopters raises the questions of 1. Availability of suitable aircraft that meet Australian requirements and the timeframe they can be delivered (yes they may come “asap” but is that quicker?) 2. The cost of cancellation or changing the order.

An alternative might have been leasing older Blackhawks rather than H135 for maintaining crew qualifications. I don’t know if that is possible or practicable,
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
Stop making excuses for them. It's Hawke and Keating All over again. Remember the $22.1 bn budget surplus that Labor claim?
This government is just buying one thing.....time. Review review review.
At the start of the election, Albo promised to act on defence now! Well, he has kept one promise....he acted on defence.
Anyone still optimistic about the surface warship review? Honestly?
Schools out on the Naval review pending a public announcement.

It will be the defining statement re government's commitment to defence.
I've made allowances that Army has come second to Navy as a priority pending the Naval review.
Well soon know what that looks like.


Chews S
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
The current gov has an order from a supplier placed by previous government for new build aircraft that have certain specifications. It has maintained that order. That is, on this matter, the new government is following what the previous government decided (there are separate debates about Taipan grounding).

The implied alternative in vonnoobie’s question of cancelling (part of ?) the new build order and acquiring surplus US Army helicopters raises the questions of 1. Availability of suitable aircraft that meet Australian requirements and the timeframe they can be delivered (yes they may come “asap” but is that quicker?) 2. The cost of cancellation or changing the order.

An alternative might have been leasing older Blackhawks rather than H135 for maintaining crew qualifications. I don’t know if that is possible or practicable,
Actually I wasn't thinking cancelling new orders at all. Still maintain that order, but baring a speed up of delivery then currently set get surplus aircraft as interim assets that can not only provide lift capability but also something for the personnel to use and maintain skills on because the fleet getting thrown away and slowly rebuilt will not be good for keeping personal in service.
 

Reptilia

Well-Known Member
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Reptilia

Well-Known Member
-5.7 billion boxer program, if new funding not found, 186 boxer order could be cut threatening jobs.

-Battle between Defence and Luerssen, department trying to shift contract variation costs on to the company to lift the specifications of the first six Arafura ships as it threatens to cancel a further six.

-Hunter slashed to 3 or 6, remaining hulls, destroyer.
 
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Stampede

Well-Known Member
-if new funding not found, boxer order could be cut threatening jobs.

-Battle between Defence and Luerssen, department trying to shift contract variation costs on to the company to lift the specifications of the first six ships as it threatens to cancel a further six.

-Hunter slashed to 3 or 6, remaining hulls AAW.
Thanks for the response.

Will watch with interest to see what transpires.

I personally doubt Boxer numbers will be reduced.
I think the original requirement was for 225 Vehicles now down to 211.
Certainly less numbers than the ASLAVs.
With all the talk of "drones" seemingly doing everything thing, I still see a place for humans and they will be transported in protected vehicles!!!
The Boxer is such a vehicle.
A good choice.


Regards S.
 

OldTex

Well-Known Member
With the Redback order already slashed and now the Boxer order facing a reduction the M113s and ASLAVs might just have to soldier on!
Both of those platforms have either reached or passed their end-of-life. Keeping them in service would become a further drain on the sustainment funding as well as complicating the training and manning plots for Army. If the Boxer CRV order is reduced then it is more likely to be as part of "Defence of Australia version 2.1". It is the highly flawed belief that a few planes and ships with missiles can defend continental Australia which seems to be embedded in the DNA of the current government. Sadly the alternative has the beancounter and spin doctror DNA embedded, which is as bad but for different reasons.
 

Reptilia

Well-Known Member
Both of those platforms have either reached or passed their end-of-life. Keeping them in service would become a further drain on the sustainment funding as well as complicating the training and manning plots for Army. If the Boxer CRV order is reduced then it is more likely to be as part of "Defence of Australia version 2.1". It is the highly flawed belief that a few planes and ships with missiles can defend continental Australia which seems to be embedded in the DNA of the current government. Sadly the alternative has the beancounter and spin doctror DNA embedded, which is as bad but for different reasons.
Just looking at todays battles, would you want be sitting in a mbt, ifv, crv, pmv against swarms of drones?
The Russians have lost 1,000s of veichles to cheap drones you can buy at Kmart, 1 at a time, not swarms, they are not autonomous, not long range or have the highest military spec. crewed armour is on its way out…
 
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ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Just looking at todays battles, would you want be sitting in a mbt, ifv, crv, pmv against swarms of drones?
The Russians have lost 1,000s of veichles to cheap drones you can buy at Kmart, 1 at a time, not swarms, they are not autonomous, not long range or have the highest military spec. crewed armour is on its way out…
You’re absolutely right. Troops should sit in unprotected vehicles and face such a threat…
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
With the Redback order already slashed and now the Boxer order facing a reduction the M113s and ASLAVs might just have to soldier on!
Growler upgrades are next on the chopping block as is the lay-up of more RAN vessels…

Lucky we’ll have all of these MISSILES to save us.

Because we won't have much else to do so…
 

Reptilia

Well-Known Member
You’re absolutely right. Troops should sit in unprotected vehicles and face such a threat…
They should be at a keyboard in front of a display far from combat…
This is not just my opinion, it is the path defence is taking.

@Reptilia

Do you have a source that future battles will be undertaken remotely. The claims seems at odds with the current and future structure of the army. I also note the defence professionals appear to disagree with you.

Please provide the source or I will delete this post ... again a warning. Your posting style needs to improve.

Alexsa
 
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OldTex

Well-Known Member
Just looking at todays battles, would you want be sitting in a mbt, ifv, crv, pmv against swarms of drones?
The Russians have lost 1,000s of veichles to cheap drones you can buy at Kmart, 1 at a time, not swarms, they are not autonomous, not long range or have the highest military spec. crewed armour is on its way out…
The loss of 1000s of vehicles has more to do with the use of poor tactics and an overblown sense of superiority against an innovative and determined opponent using the full range of their capabilities than to swarms of cheap drones. Yes the cheap drones do help by providing ISR, but it is the tanks, artillery and infantry with anti-tank weapons that are doing the majority of the destruction.

They should be at a keyboard in front of a display far from combat…
This is not just my opinion, it is the path defence is taking.
The keyboard warriors can contribute by helping to shape the battlefield. But again it is the infantry, armour, artillery and cavalry that actually seize and hold the ground, fix and destroy the enemy.

It is combat not 'Call of Duty'.
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
Just looking at todays battles, would you want be sitting in a mbt, ifv, crv, pmv against swarms of drones?
The Russians have lost 1,000s of veichles to cheap drones you can buy at Kmart, 1 at a time, not swarms, they are not autonomous, not long range or have the highest military spec. crewed armour is on its way out…
Actually the 1,000's of vehicles lost if you actually break it down most of them, like 99%+ of them are Soviet era/early-mid NATO era assets. M113's, MT-TB's, T-72's etc etc either all poorly armoured or the munitions are located in spot easy to set off. Now compare drone hots to late cold war era NATO vehicles such as Leopard 2 and the Bradley and in most cases crew's have survived with limited to no injuries when their vehicles got hit.

You are literally lumping every vehicle into one group of vehicles vs drones to come to an argument rather then taking the smart approach and breaking it down to each seat of vehicle types to see which vehicles do or don't work.
 
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