Australian Army Discussions and Updates

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Many military experts will be carefully analyzing all the drone/armoured vehicle interactions along with various counter measures resulting from this war along with all the new non military comm stuff that is now available that can effect the battle space. It is too early to make judgements. The next peer to peer naval engagement, on the other hand, may see some fairly quick judgements.
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Just looking at todays battles, would you want be sitting in a mbt, ifv, crv, pmv against swarms of drones?
The Russians have lost 1,000s of veichles to cheap drones you can buy at Kmart, 1 at a time, not swarms, they are not autonomous, not long range or have the highest military spec. crewed armour is on its way out…
Russia's poor use of armour and terrible tactics are more the problem.
They are very poorly trained. They move close together, in broad daylight, hatches open and display predictable routines. That's just a part of it. Any defender would look for ways to exploit this. I would love to see how many Russian armoured vehicles have been taken out by just the use of mines, which would show their habit of using the same routes etc. Sure drones are doing damage, but not way more than they should.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Devil's advocate again.

The UK entered WWII with, although they had been leaders in mechanisation, close air support and carrier aviation, arguably well behind in these areas because in an over investment in bombing. That is city attacking heavy (Wellingtons and Whitneys) and medium bomders, and conventional light bombers, for interdiction, i.e. attacking rail hubs etc.

This was based on the best understanding of the day, i.e. the doctrines developed by the RAF and sold to the political classes. Tactical airpower, modern armour, and maritime strike were very much lower priorities.

Anyway, long story short, near useless capabilities were over invested in and critical capabilities hadn't even received minimal R&D.

In times of uncertainty it is best to invest in general capabilities and industrial capability, so you are best able to adapt, once you know what you need.

Every useless Fairey Battle light bomber, was a Merlin engine and materials that could have literally been used to build additional Spitfires, Hurricanes or even the original attack version of the Hawker Henley tactical bomber.
 
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Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Devil's advocate again.

The UK entered WWII with, although they had been leaders in mechanisation, close air support and carrier aviation, arguably well behind in these areas because in an over investment in bombing. That is city attacking heavy (Wellingtons and Whitneys) and medium bomders, and conventional light bombers, for interdiction, i.e. attacking rail hubs etc.

This was based on the best understanding of the day, i.e. the doctrines developed by the RAF and sold to the political classes. Tactical airpower, modern armour, and maritime strike were very much lower priorities.

Anyway, long story short, near useless capabilities were over invested in and critical capabilities hadn't even received minimal R&D.

In times of uncertainty it is best to invest in general capabilities and industrial capability, so you are best able to adapt, once you know what you need.

Every useless Fairey Battle light bomber, was a Merlin engine and materials that could have literally been used to build additional Spitfires, Hurricanes or even the original attack version of the Hawker Henley tactical bomber.
In the above it also missed the fateful impact that the Dunkirk evacuation had upon British forces with much of the BEF's heavy equipment having to be abandoned. This in turn caused British industrial output to be focused in many cases on replacing vehicles, armour and artillery that was lost or abandoned. Having a sudden shortfall of tens of thousands of vehicles and ~2,500 artillery pieces that were needed to equip forces in being, before new production could be done to expand forces and/or new development of kit to improve or replace many existing designs.

The QF 3.7" AA gun is but one example of where both British forces and production were essentially distorted early in the war which caused potential opportunity losses. So many of these AA guns had to be left behind so that new production was kept in Britain to provide AA for use against the Luftwaffe. It was not until towards the end of the war that production had run ahead sufficiently to free up some units and production capacity to develop things like the 32-pdr AT gun. It had been known earlier that the 3.7" gun could be used in a secondary AT role, much like the German 8.8 cm flak gun (not quite as effectively due to the greater weight of the 3.7" gun and mounting) but due at least in part to scarcity British forces would have to rely upon the 2-pdr AT guns with some usage of the 25-pdr howitzer in direct fire/AT roles for much of the post-Dunkirk early and mid-war periods including by the British 8th Army in North Africa. Another unfortunate outcome is that whilst many 2-pdr guns were also left behind during the evacuation, new replacement 2-pdr guns were produced even though they would soon prove to be fairly ineffective vs. newer German armour.

I suppose were I am going with this, and what a significant part of my concern is, is that it seems the decision-makers (or at least certain ones, anyway...) in seem to have been 'talking up' sovereign defence production capabilities, but then also significantly cutting back planned production for whole areas of defence kit production. This seems to be getting done in favour of focused production on certain types of ordnance (which would still not be entirely sovereign since domestic production would still require certain components to be imported) which IMO at least would cover only a limited number of contingencies.

Australia ordered 211 Boxer CRV's with the first 18 produced in Germany IIRC. If there does end up being a significant cut to the numbers ordered, how long would it take for Australian product to be completed for a reduced ADF order? In turn (and especially if sustaining production orders for Germany and/or others do not actually materialize) how long would the Rheinmetal facility in Redbank QLD remain operational? If memory serves, at least 25 Boxers have already been delivered.

The all leads me back to my continuing impression that the DSR is nothing more than a newer, DoA 2.0 strategy or as I tend to refer to it, a DDoA strategy.
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Devil's advocate again.

The UK entered WWII with, although they had been leaders in mechanisation, close air support and carrier aviation, arguably well behind in these areas because in an over investment in bombing. That is city attacking heavy (Wellingtons and Whitneys) and medium bomders, and conventional light bombers, for interdiction, i.e. attacking rail hubs etc.

This was based on the best understanding of the day, i.e. the doctrines developed by the RAF and sold to the political classes. Tactical airpower, modern armour, and maritime strike were very much lower priorities.

Anyway, long story short, near useless capabilities were over invested in and critical capabilities hadn't even received minimal R&D.

In times of uncertainty it is best to invest in general capabilities and industrial capability, so you are best able to adapt, once you know what you need.

Every useless Fairey Battle light bomber, was a Merlin engine and materials that could have literally been used to build additional Spitfires, Hurricanes or even the original attack version of the Hawker Henley tactical bomber.
Thats a very good and valid point. Industry must be supported and developed, even if production is at a low rate.
 

Lolcake

Active Member
Just looking at todays battles, would you want be sitting in a mbt, ifv, crv, pmv against swarms of drones?
The Russians have lost 1,000s of veichles to cheap drones you can buy at Kmart, 1 at a time, not swarms, they are not autonomous, not long range or have the highest military spec. crewed armour is on its way out…
This is a distortion of the truth, the reality is the modern warfighter will have to contend with an increasing amount of AI assisted or controlled drones and defence needs to act smartly and efficiently with regards to its counters. I would not go so far as to say the numbers of armored vehicles need to be cut, quite the opposite, but there needs to be an effective counter and its implementation needs to be expedited. Whether or not that actually involves boots on the ground and not troops in a remote weapon station/control centre is another argument entirely.
 
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ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
They should be at a keyboard in front of a display far from combat…
This is not just my opinion, it is the path defence is taking.
Is it? Why do I see all these airforces buying jets, armies buying armoured vehicles and navies buying navy ships?

I do see an awful lot getting rather overly enamoured of drones though…
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
At the end of the day drones aren't a replacement, they are merely a new tool for which those on the ground have greater reach in ISR and attack/defence. If we where to send our men and woman into battle with asset's that aren't at risk of any counter asset then they would literally be armed with sticks and stones... That same argument would make warships obsolete because they are at risk of submarines, submarines would be obsolete because they are at risk of ASW aircraft, ASW aircraft are obsolete because they are at risk of fighter jets, Fighter jets are obsolete because they are at risk of ground based air defence, GBAD is obsolete because it is at risk of drones, Drones are obsolete because they are at risk of jamming..... Literally you end up with a military with nothing by the time you finish applying that argument across everything....
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I think we are in the cusp of a revolution in military affairs.

I don't think we will see the end of armour, infantry, artillery, aviation, warships, submarines etc. but things are changing and those systems will need to evolve.

Rather than the tank is dead, look at a 1939 tank versus a 1945 one, and then what appeared in the late 70s versus the mainstream in the late 60s.
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
I realise this subject is getting a bit old and Kym Bergman is looked down upon in this thread but in the article in this months APDR he made a point that resonated with me re the Taipans. What if we gave them to the Ukraine and they got good service out of them? …. https://asiapacificdefencereporter....24/02/APDR-Feb-2024-WHOLE-MAG-interactive.pdf
Yes, trying to mention, or discuss, the Taipan fiasco has turned into that famous Faulty Towers episode with that equally famous quote:


“Don’t mention the war!”


Hmmm....
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I realise this subject is getting a bit old and Kym Bergman is looked down upon in this thread but in the article in this months APDR he made a point that resonated with me re the Taipans. What if we gave them to the Ukraine and they got good service out of them? …. https://asiapacificdefencereporter....24/02/APDR-Feb-2024-WHOLE-MAG-interactive.pdf
Had they kept them maintained, after it was obvious if was not economical to return them to service, had they returned them to flyable condition to supply to Ukraine, instead of converting them to components, many if the very same people who are losing their minds over not doing do, would be losing their minds over them doing so.

Some on the edges would be happy, some who are currently happy would be angry, and most of the usual suspects would be wanting in conflated anger because what ever the government does is wring, simply because they are ths government.
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Had they kept them maintained, after it was obvious if was not economical to return them to service, had they returned them to flyable condition to supply to Ukraine, instead of converting them to components, many if the very same people who are losing their minds over not doing do, would be losing their minds over them doing so.

Some on the edges would be happy, some who are currently happy would be angry, and most of the usual suspects would be wanting in conflated anger because what ever the government does is wring, simply because they are ths government.
As far I....Dave the tax payer is concerned, I am happy to re coup any $ we can from them. If that means Ukraine misses out, bad luck. I think I read they rejected the F/A 18s.....any money back in the coffers has to be good.
 

MickB

Well-Known Member
I realise this subject is getting a bit old and Kym Bergman is looked down upon in this thread but in the article in this months APDR he made a point that resonated with me re the Taipans. What if we gave them to the Ukraine and they got good service out of them? …. https://asiapacificdefencereporter....24/02/APDR-Feb-2024-WHOLE-MAG-interactive.pdf
Tired of all this "what if".
Ukraine rather late in the day requested the MH 90.
I did not see the statement of "as is where is" or similar in this request. Thus the implication is they wanted them in flyable condition.

If I understand it right the rejection of the F18s was at least in part the cost of bringing them to combat worthy condition.
"flying Junk" was the term used in the papers.

If a country so desperate for modern fighters (if the F18s can be called that) turned down fairly good condition F18s as too costly do you realy think they woud take the Taipans as they are now even as a gift.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I realise this subject is getting a bit old and Kym Bergman is looked down upon in this thread but in the article in this months APDR he made a point that resonated with me re the Taipans. What if we gave them to the Ukraine and they got good service out of them? …. https://asiapacificdefencereporter....24/02/APDR-Feb-2024-WHOLE-MAG-interactive.pdf
Word is getting around that Sweden and Norway are also stripping down their retired NH-90’s and selling the parts for as much as NHI will pay for them…

No-one wanted their second-hand airframes either…
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The professional rotary wing forums seem to be taking the “good idea, poorly executed” view wrt NH90. Posts from employees of a number of operators seem to suggest that average availability, what ever might be meant by that in each case, is around 40%. Much of the blame for the type’s problems, it seems to be suggested, was the (in what seems a majority view) the crazy workshare arrangements in Europe.

And yes, also suggestions Sweden (which is going the Blackhawk route), at least, is stripping their aircraft.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
The professional rotary wing forums seem to be taking the “good idea, poorly executed” view wrt NH90. Posts from employees of a number of operators seem to suggest that average availability, what ever might be meant by that in each case, is around 40%. Much of the blame for the type’s problems, it seems to be suggested, was the (in what seems a majority view) the crazy workshare arrangements in Europe.

And yes, also suggestions Sweden (which is going the Blackhawk route), at least, is stripping their aircraft.
The A400 and Typhoon also suffered due to workshare amongst Euro partners.
 

MARKMILES77

Active Member
Looks like the Apache buy will go ahead but wouldn't surprise me if that changed and the buy was scrapped.
Instead put $5.5 Billion into say the BAE Strix ( or something similiar) to provide rotary ISR and ground attack. Likely get ten Strix for every one Apache.
So 290 Strix or 29 Apache. Which would provide most capability if the budget is fixed and you can spend the money on one or the other?

The Age.
The Morrison government announced in 2022 that it would spend $5.5 billion to acquire 29 new Boeing Apache attack helicopters to replace the Tiger armed reconnaissance helicopter, with delivery expected in 2025.

Marcus Hellyer, a former senior public servant in the Defence Department, said the Apache helicopter fleet should be at the top of Australia’s list to scrap as it looked to free up funding for other priorities.“If the US doesn’t think that this capacity is relevant, why do we?” he asked. “What real role is there for them? They are overkill against an unsophisticated adversary, and not survivable against sophisticated adversaries.”
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Looks like the Apache buy will go ahead but wouldn't surprise me if that changed and the buy was scrapped.
Instead put $5.5 Billion into say the BAE Strix ( or something similiar) to provide rotary ISR and ground attack. Likely get ten Strix for every one Apache.
So 290 Strix or 29 Apache. Which would provide most capability if the budget is fixed and you can spend the money on one or the other?



If I was a grunt on the ground, I would 100% want a human, flying overwatch in a capable platform, who I can talk and direct in person to save my arse. There is a place for a platform like Strix of course, to complement the manned platforms, but not to replace it. There is no such thing as overkill where soldiers lives are at stake, keeping in mind, it is the politicians who sent the soldiers into harms way, not the soldiers.
 

Wombat000

Well-Known Member
I’m unsure of the Apache network capability, but perhaps there’s good practical and tactical doctrine rationale for having a forward manned command ‘node’ for any upcoming UAVs?
I can imagine perhaps an Apache parenting an accompanying flight of UAVs, as I imagine a manned aircraft might team with Ghost Bat.

Hence the motivation for continuing of the Apache.

…..just as i believe generally that the tank, helicopter and infantryman require adaptation to evolving issues, I’m also skeptical of the notion of Apache obsolescence,
 
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