Indonesia: 'green water navy'

[Meriv90]

A FREMM for 600mln that is the price we paid for them ten years before, delivered instantly is a gift in order to get more orders down the road.

They say when shipbuilding you got:

Time,Cost,Quality.

Choose two.

They got the 3 of them, it is a gift

And the verb "to gift" exist. I'm not understanding where is the problem

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/conjugation/english/gift

 

[swerve]

A FREMM for 600mln that is the price we paid for them ten years before, delivered instantly is a gift in order to get more orders down the road.

They say when shipbuilding you got:

Time,Cost,Quality.

Choose two.

They got the 3 of them, it is a gift

And the verb "to gift" exist. I'm not understanding where is the problem

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/conjugation/english/gift

It's a pointless neologism. It adds nothing to the language.

The ships were not gifts. They were not free. They could be called bargains, or cheap, but not gifts. If I give you a car worth €20,000, for nothing, it's a gift. If I sell it to you for €18,000, it's a bargain. It's cheap. It is not a gift. You have paid for it, & paid most of the full price.

And I doubt very much that Italy paid Fincantieri the full price at the time the orders were placed, let alone years before the funding was approved, which is what would have had to have happened if it was "the price we paid for them ten years before". The usual procedure is for there to be a series of payments over the time the ships are building. Spartaco Schergat was laid down in 2015, & Emilio Bianchi in 2018, & they were sold to Egypt in 2020. They were sold to Egypt in 2020. You're saying that Italy paid in full in 2010. Those two weren't even formally ordered until early 2015, & the order was for €764 million. I'm sure that there was a lot not covered by that order, but it was only five years earlier, not ten.

 

[Meriv90]

At 2020 we paid for the FREMM program: 5,992bln€ for 10 ships

Thats where the 600mln figure comes from.

Egypt bought the ships at 990mln.

We sold them 210mln cheaper. Without counting the 140mln that were required to strip the ships from Nato Equipment.

Why we undersold them?

Because it was part of a 12bln deal.

Italy-Egypt to sign mega defence deal soon

www.egyptdefenceexpo.com

-6 Frigates including 2x confirmed FREMM Bergamini
-24 M-346 trainer jets
-24 Eurofighter Typhoon jets
-20 Falaj II OPV
-1 Military Satellite

Egypt grows its modern family | Times Aerospace

The latest stage in the modernisation programme now seems likely to include the acquisition of 24 Eurofighter EF-2000 Typhoon aircraft, as part of a wider $10-12 billion arms package from Italy. This will also reportedly include 24 Leonardo M346 Master training aircraft, 20-24 more AW-149...

www.timesaerospace.aero

(latest news on the topic)

Nothing became reality. So for that reason I'm using the word gifted, because on the table they were part of a way bigger order, that made their price logical.

P.S. I normally fight on our forum because I defend the move by Fincantieri, 95% of the Italian users are way more harsh than me in words.

We shouldn't have trusted, we should have applied the common law principle of 4 corners.

 

[Ananda]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1722516911706284451

NG CEO conduct meeting with Indonesian Dpt Defense Minister. This specifically talk on Scorpene Evolved program with Indonesian PAL Shipyard. The talk also include financing package.

Seems NG got heads up possition with their incountry manufacturing. Same model they are already done in India and Brazil. Will see how TKMS going to counter.

 

[SolarisKenzo]

Its not the proper 3d so I will only write this message and eventually reply in the Italian Navy 3d, but the FREMM-Egypt deal was everything but a gift/cheap.
The ships were sold in export version, so many of the more advanced systems were removed and replaced with export ones ( and eventually used for other ships ).
The italian supermajor ENI also secured several exploration contracts in Egypt following the contract.
Leonardo also sold 24+8 helicopters to Egypt just some months before the FREMM deal ( and dont tell they had no idea...).

Italy made profit from that sale, otherwise they wouldnt have sold the ships.

 

[Ananda]

Fincantieri delegates seems also talking on how to finalise PPA deals. Something that now Italian officially admitted they are in serious talk for PPA with Indonesia.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1723109469591368082

Seems the talk for 2 PPA getting more traction and serious. Knowing how Indonesian bureaucracy work (including MinDef), when they are already shown that in the official channels, it is mean they are quite in serious talk.

However back also to how Indonesian MoF work on large overseas procurement since decades ago, this is also back to Financing package. That's why the process with Frenchie NG can be fasten, as they are already include the finacing packages on overall deal.

It is been rumours thar MoF already agree on set financing budget to procure Italian Frigate from Fincantieri. This is suppose for FREMM which now seems (at least 2 of them) being switch to PPA. Thus even Fincantieri already agree with MinDef on princing package, but not on financing line package with MoF, the deal won't be effective.

One thing tough, seems ITS Morosini tour in Asia Pac, at least with Indonesian MinDef and Navy give possitive impressions. They are now call PPA as ITS Morosini class (type).

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1723109469591368082

Seems the talk for 2 PPA getting more traction and serious. Knowing how Indonesian bureaucracy work (including MinDef), when they are already shown that in the official channels, it is mean they are quite in serious talk.

However back also to how Indonesian MoF work on large overseas procurement since decades ago, this is also back to Financing package. That's why the process with Frenchie NG can be fasten, as they are already include the finacing packages on overall deal.

It is been rumours thar MoF already agree on set financing budget to procure Italian Frigate from Fincantieri. This is suppose for FREMM which now seems (at least 2 of them) being switch to PPA. Thus even Fincantieri already agree with MinDef on princing package, but not on financing line package with MoF, the deal won't be effective.

One thing tough, seems ITS Morosini tour in Asia Pac, at least with Indonesian MinDef and Navy give possitive impressions. They are now call PPA as ITS Morosini class (type).

I expect Indonesia will order the two PPA Thaon di Revel class ships instead of the FREMMs. Less expensive and smaller, so i think we will not get the FREMM heavy frigates.

I also have the feeling that they will simply replace the 6 Van Speijk/Ahmad Yani frigates with 2 SIGMA 10514 frigates, 2 Iver Huitfeldts and 2 PPAs. Why simple, effective and efficiently if you can do it more complicated?

 

[Ananda]

also have the feeling that they will simply replace the 6 Van Speijk/Ahmad Yani frigates with 2 SIGMA 10514 frigates, 2 Iver Huitfeldts and 2 PPAs.

I quite pretty sure it is the intention. That's why this urge to get 2 already build PPA from Italian Navy line. Those 6 Van Speijk supposedly replace by 6 SIGMA 10514 by end of present administration. They mess it up on first term, now they need to find 4 frigate program soon.

For next one as 'capacity expansion' that's problem for next administration. It can be more Arrowhead Babcock design or combine with Fincantieri ones. Next administration can even revert back to SIGMA design for all the purpose. However if they (present administration) can at least secure replacement for all Van Speijk, they can say at least they keep pace on modernization drive.

Add:
All this back to which supplier that can provide MoF acceptable financing line package. No financing line that's satisfied MoF and the deal is off. One thing that make Frenchie salesman gleefully at this moment (as his X and YouTube shown), is potential Turkiye being ousted as supplier, due inability from Turkiye supplier got financing package.

However this is also why those Turkiye supplier take Euro partner in this deal with Indonesia. This is why Czech company like Excalibur team up with Roketsan, as they hope their Euro partner can help secure financing package. Again all this back to financing package that MoF agree on. This is why many Indonesian defense enthusiasts perplexed why MoF has the final call.

 

[Ananda]

Pattugliatori all’Indonesia, le commesse al Muggiano

È vicina alla conclusione la trattativa per la vendita di due supernavi da guerra: dovrebbero essere il “Giovanni della Bande Nere” e il “Marcantonio Colonna”

www.ilsecoloxix.it

The noise on 2 PPA especially those 2 that are still in construction will be diverting to Indonesia, seems also getting louder from Italian sources. Sigma 10514, Arrowhead 140 derivative and now PPA. Well hopefully this stop here. No FREMM please, this just too many variations already.

 

[spoz]

Personally I always thought that Indonesia should have gone with series production of the Sigmas; they always seemed like quite reasonable ships to me. If that had happened there would be something around 6 in the water by now; and the overall price (and certainly the through life costs) would likely have been significantly less than a 2+2+2 situation.

 

[Redlands18]

Personally I always thought that Indonesia should have gone with series production of the Sigmas; they always seemed like quite reasonable ships to me. If that had happened there would be something around 6 in the water by now; and the overall price (and certainly the through life costs) would likely have been significantly less than a 2+2+2 situation.

SIGMA Multi Mission Frigate 12516 - Damen
Throw in that Damen is still working on improving the Sigma design and are now out to 125mx16m and 4600t, that is a substantial family of ships giving you very good options in Corvettes, Light Frigates and a GP Frigate all to the same baseline.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Personally I always thought that Indonesia should have gone with series production of the Sigmas; they always seemed like quite reasonable ships to me. If that had happened there would be something around 6 in the water by now; and the overall price (and certainly the through life costs) would likely have been significantly less than a 2+2+2 situation.

It's all about politics. The current administration put many defence procurement programs on hold simply because these programs (like SIGMA 10514, second batch of Type 209/1400 submarines, KF-X) were regarded as "projects from SBY/their political rivals".
In general until recently the current administration didn't like to spend much on defence.

And yes, a single class of frigates is much more cost efficient and practical, or if the government and navy required some larger warships, then a mixture of 3 SIGMA 10514 + 3 Iver Huitfeldts was also acceptable.

It is actually remarkable that if they wanted some larger frigates than the 105 meter long SIGMAs, but FREMMS are too large and expensive, they didn't go for the 122 m FTI, as a package with the Dassault Rafale and DCNS Scorpène.

There is a chance that because of wrong planning and mismanagement, the Iver Huitfeldts and the other class of frigates become useless FFBNW warships, or sailing in times of crisis with empty launch tubes.

 

[Ananda]

Sigma 10514 and Iver Huitfeldt combination initially aim for GP Frigate/Light Frigate replacement on Van Speijk as patrol frigate. Iver base for larger Frigate that have more capabilities on AAW and area defense. Base on what the Danes configuration.

Now, with the changes, as sandhi put it is politically driven more then defense driven. Ego that my 'project/initiative' is matter on Indonesian politicians psyche. So with Damen Light Frigate drop, Iver process stretch and now work as Arrowhead 140 derivative call Red-White Frigate. However now instead develop more on Iver config, seems now it is config that's not really clear. Not clear which supplier on electronics and armament. This it will be build as FFBNW but not quite sure when full config going to be fulfill.

FFBNW also going to be pattern for OPV/Corvette 90. The design as I have put before is 'suspiciously' similar with Damen 9814 Corvette that being offer before to Vietnam:


This project now also clouded in secrecy, as some in media talk about problem with construction stage due to shipyard project financial management. Although some enthusiasts X shown the construction still progressing.

Still this is also shown problem between domestication policy ambition, and reality of local shipyard capabilities. This OPV project is part of MinDef diversification productions. Instead focusing with PAL only. Time will tell if other shipyard capabilities can catch up.

This matter because it will see if domestic can provide the political ambitions for 'made in Indonesia' drive, or reality on defense need must let some or more construction and procurement need to be source from overseas yard.

That's what PPA situation coming. As the productivity on local shipyard not meet the speed needed as TNI-AL fleet face obsolescence issues. This create domestic modifications on some existing assets:

Indonesia kerja sama Jerman modernisasi 41 KRI dan alih teknologi

Industri pertahanan Indonesia bekerja sama dengan penyedia teknologi navigasi asal Jerman, Anschütz untuk peremajaan dan modernisasi 41 kapal perang ...

www.antaranews.com

41 vessels need to be done modifications. This from Corvette, Frigate, Patrol Ships and Submarine. This is also ambitious program considering the time line target. However this is less ambitious ones then domestic buildings.

So in paper TNI-AL and MinDef planners actually quite understand and drive on commonality. However as usual in Indonesia, and I believe also in other 'democracies', politics will mess up the technical planners. So I do see commonality will still be aim, but from time to time will be 'distrub' by some political procurement that being taken for one or more 'chaotics' reasoning.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Sigma 10514 and Iver Huitfeldt combination initially aim for GP Frigate/Light Frigate replacement on Van Speijk as patrol frigate. Iver base for larger Frigate that have more capabilities on AAW and area defense. Base on what the Danes configuration.

Now, with the changes, as sandhi put it is politically driven more then defense driven. Ego that my 'project/initiative' is matter on Indonesian politicians psyche. So with Damen Light Frigate drop, Iver process stretch and now work as Arrowhead 140 derivative call Red-White Frigate. However now instead develop more on Iver config, seems now it is config that's not really clear. Not clear which supplier on electronics and armament. This it will be build as FFBNW but not quite sure when full config going to be fulfill.

FFBNW also going to be pattern for OPV/Corvette 90. The design as I have put before is 'suspiciously' similar with Damen 9814 Corvette that being offer before to Vietnam:
View attachment 50954View attachment 50955

This project now also clouded in secrecy, as some in media talk about problem with construction stage due to shipyard project financial management. Although some enthusiasts X shown the construction still progressing.

Still this is also shown problem between domestication policy ambition, and reality of local shipyard capabilities. This OPV project is part of MinDef diversification productions. Instead focusing with PAL only. Time will tell if other shipyard capabilities can catch up.

This matter because it will see if domestic can provide the political ambitions for 'made in Indonesia' drive, or reality on defense need must let some or more construction and procurement need to be source from overseas yard.

That's what PPA situation coming. As the productivity on local shipyard not meet the speed needed as TNI-AL fleet face obsolescence issues. This create domestic modifications on some existing assets:

Indonesia kerja sama Jerman modernisasi 41 KRI dan alih teknologi

Industri pertahanan Indonesia bekerja sama dengan penyedia teknologi navigasi asal Jerman, Anschütz untuk peremajaan dan modernisasi 41 kapal perang ...

www.antaranews.com

41 vessels need to be done modifications. This from Corvette, Frigate, Patrol Ships and Submarine. This is also ambitious program considering the time line target. However this is less ambitious ones then domestic buildings.

So in paper TNI-AL and MinDef planners actually quite understand and drive on commonality. However as usual in Indonesia, and I believe also in other 'democracies', politics will mess up the technical planners. So I do see commonality will still be aim, but from time to time will be 'distrub' by some political procurement that being taken for one or more 'chaotics' reasoning.

Thank you for sharing.
I wonder how upgradable the Project 89,2 minesweepers and Project 1331 ASW-corvettes are, both classes built by Wolgast Peenewerft in the DDR. Just some new navigation systems would not be enough to stay effective and fully operational more than 40 years after their construction.

 

[Ananda]

wonder how upgradable the Project 89,2 minesweepers and Project 1331 ASW-corvettes are, both classes built by Wolgast Peenewerft in the DDR.

I believe they're only want to upgrade Parchim Corvettes and not Kondor minesweeper. Then again I believe this upgrade is part of buying time. Parchim suppose to be replace already by OPV/Corvettes build by local shipyard.

Back again to matter of budget and local shipyard capabilities. Policies that supposedly to source domestically as part of Made in Indonesia, is begin to bite back toward replacement availability on schedule. Results to prolong usage of obsolescence assets, just like Van Speijks that's been prolong more than a decade from previous plan.

Just like Indian BJP with Made in India drives, Indonesian politicians see that Made in Indonesia drives are fast way for domestic industries revival, thus can be big votes gathers. However even India with larger Industrial base, face difficulties on this.

 

[ngatimozart]

Sigma 10514 and Iver Huitfeldt combination initially aim for GP Frigate/Light Frigate replacement on Van Speijk as patrol frigate. Iver base for larger Frigate that have more capabilities on AAW and area defense. Base on what the Danes configuration.

Now, with the changes, as sandhi put it is politically driven more then defense driven. Ego that my 'project/initiative' is matter on Indonesian politicians psyche. So with Damen Light Frigate drop, Iver process stretch and now work as Arrowhead 140 derivative call Red-White Frigate. However now instead develop more on Iver config, seems now it is config that's not really clear. Not clear which supplier on electronics and armament. This it will be build as FFBNW but not quite sure when full config going to be fulfill.

FFBNW also going to be pattern for OPV/Corvette 90. The design as I have put before is 'suspiciously' similar with Damen 9814 Corvette that being offer before to Vietnam:
View attachment 50954View attachment 50955

This project now also clouded in secrecy, as some in media talk about problem with construction stage due to shipyard project financial management. Although some enthusiasts X shown the construction still progressing.

Still this is also shown problem between domestication policy ambition, and reality of local shipyard capabilities. This OPV project is part of MinDef diversification productions. Instead focusing with PAL only. Time will tell if other shipyard capabilities can catch up.

This matter because it will see if domestic can provide the political ambitions for 'made in Indonesia' drive, or reality on defense need must let some or more construction and procurement need to be source from overseas yard.

That's what PPA situation coming. As the productivity on local shipyard not meet the speed needed as TNI-AL fleet face obsolescence issues. This create domestic modifications on some existing assets:

Indonesia kerja sama Jerman modernisasi 41 KRI dan alih teknologi

Industri pertahanan Indonesia bekerja sama dengan penyedia teknologi navigasi asal Jerman, Anschütz untuk peremajaan dan modernisasi 41 kapal perang ...

www.antaranews.com

41 vessels need to be done modifications. This from Corvette, Frigate, Patrol Ships and Submarine. This is also ambitious program considering the time line target. However this is less ambitious ones then domestic buildings.

So in paper TNI-AL and MinDef planners actually quite understand and drive on commonality. However as usual in Indonesia, and I believe also in other 'democracies', politics will mess up the technical planners. So I do see commonality will still be aim, but from time to time will be 'distrub' by some political procurement that being taken for one or more 'chaotics' reasoning.

Since you are building the AH140, you should seriously look at the AH120. It would give a good degree of commonality. Although I understand that would be too logical for the pollies and vested individuals.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Since you are building the AH140, you should seriously look at the AH120. It would give a good degree of commonality. Although I understand that would be too logical for the pollies and vested individuals.

Smaller, lighter, cheaper, similar to the Iver Huitfeldt/Arrowhead 140 design, yet still capable and flexible. Maybe we can even order more than two of them. But yes....this is too logic and practical.




Here an article about the construction of two PC-60 Dorang Class patrolboats. This class is actually a downgraded version of thw KCR-60.

Construction of 2 new Indonesian Dorang class patrol boats is progress

According to information published by the Indonesian MoD on November 17, 2023, construction of two new Dorang class patrol boats is underway for the I

www.navyrecognition.com

 

[Ananda]

This article was two weeks old. Come from KKIP (Defence Industry Policy Committee), which basically supervise implementation on Defense Industry development. This is come after their visit to SOE Shipyard PT. PAL.

PEMBANGUNAN FRIGAT MERAH PUTIH, KAPAL SELAM U-214, DAN REVERSE ENGINEERING TORPEDO | KKIP Komite Kebijakan Industri Pertahanan

www.kkip.go.id

Now asside inspect progress on Red-White Frigates construction development (which PAL reiterate all will be operational by early 2027), they also talk with PAL on Type 214 construction preparation. TKMS 214 and NG Scorpene has been known to be the lead two contenders for next batch of TNI-AL submarines. Questions will be which one that going to bag the deal.

Now Frenchie Tweeter Guy Salesman already go offensive on social media channels, printed media, and youtube saying that NG is the only one that will provide domestication work on submarines construction. Something that's politically very important in Indonesia. He then put TKMS doesn't want to do domestication. Now this talk on domestication of 214, if it's true shown signs unlike Frenchie Salesman talk, TKMS seems wiling to offer that domestication works share too.

This again shown how political choices is more and more important in Indonesia defense procurement, on which partner then assets that's going to win.

 

[Meriv90]

Considering you already have the Korean subs that are a derivative of the Germans I see no point in going french.

Or outside politics I'm missing something?

 

[Redlands18]

Considering you already have the Korean subs that are a derivative of the Germans I see no point in going french.

Or outside politics I'm missing something?

Well it is the same Navy that currently has 2 Sigma 10514, is building 2 AH-140s and are apparently in negotiations for 2 already built PPAs. So yea buying Type 214 derivatives from Korea and Scorpene's from France is quite reasonable.