Indonesia: 'green water navy'

[Ananda]

The required budget will be huge, and our government isn't even willing to spend enough for less sophisticated programs like N219, N245 and Elang Hitam UAV. And the Klewang Class trimaran program is ended with a single almost unarmed vessel.

Yes, that's why this talk on Midget Submarine or UUV is something that I see being push by some faction with 'business' interest backing up. Not entirely what TNI planner have in priority. Things like this as you have put, at most end up as one kind prototype or niche classes.

However this litoral (tactical) and ocean going (attack) Submarine consideration seems the one that getting momentum. Off course with election years looking, it will be back to politics of whose going to win. Mind you one of candidate from 'bull' party now has recuit 'shadow' defense 'pundits' that more or less want to pursue Russian or Non Western origin assets or partners for domestic industry. Not surprisingly as those are the factions that back by lobbyists/salesman from opposite side of Twitter guy master.

 

[Redlands18]

Base on rumours, attack sub is for longer range operations while tactical sub more on litoral range operations.

However I do suspect they put in two categories more to give political room for building in overseas yard. They already sell to public that submarine must be build in domestic yard (as part of their campaign to justifies investment on PAL Submarine facilities yard). However when they face realities that building all in Domestic will not going to meet the time line of 12 sub by 2030+, they divide this to justifies building some in overseas yard.

Well that's just my guess, perhaps the rumours on long range and litoral subs are more possible. DSME being rumours offer KSS3 that equip with 6-10VLS to counter NG offer for the attack sub. TKMS seems have momentum more on tactical Sub. Rumours that on tactical sub Fincantieri also offering their version of 212.

Note:
Officially they (MinDef) has not elaborate more on what's Tactical and what's Attack sub means. The slide in Prabowo presentation also shown both of them have similar weapon loads. Thus I believe they don't want to give detail to public yet. This is why I suspect it is just political room for them to seperate program that going to be build in domestic yard and those which either build overseas or mix ones.

I could see the point of Indonesia having two different size SSKs, one for operations away from Indonesia and one for operations within the Peninsula. Decent numbers of small AIP Subs would make moving shipping through the straights extremely dangerous. And something larger with better range and endurance for ISR missions would also be needed.

 

[Ananda]

Kunjungi Galangan Kapal Selam di Jerman, KSAL: Kami Ajukan ke Kemenhan Mana yang Cocok

KSAL sebut setidaknya Indonesia punya 12 kapal selam. Ia usulkan soal pengadaan kapal selam ke Kemenhan usai kunjungi galangan kapal selam di Jerman

nasional.kompas.com

TNI-AL chief acknowledged to media that his visit to TKMS is part of assesment on whose going to be supplier or partner to PAL on Submarine. He acknowledge that he is given assessment on both 212 and 214 class by TKMS.

This confirm the rumours that both TKMS and NG got lead on the contention, and rumours also talk DSME and Fincantieri also still include in the frayed. Fincantieri also offering (as rumours say) their version of 212. Before it is also talk TKMS will work with Turkiye Golcuk Shipyard for 214. However seems base on latest visit, seems now TKMS want to take over the work by themselves.

Potential two partner being selected for this Attack and Tactical Submarine also still there. MinDef still open for both submarine classification.

 

[Ananda]

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https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1711696900284666275

Twitter guy as Frenchie salesman talk about latest and seems definite proposal from NG on Scorpene version. Previous video he's thrashing AIP as good tech but not suitable for Indonesia. As comparison he shown how additional infrastructure that TNI AL need to build to support AIP on every Naval base that supporting submarine operation. Clear sales campaign against TKMS offer.

This is actually confirmation from previous information in media and forums on NG offering, which basically going to be base on Brazilian version, with Lithium Ion battery and with similar industrial deal. This is also indicating that what NG offering like Brazilian ones, is capable for more than green water operation. Something that current TNI-AL 209 base SSK has.

 

[ChestnutTree]

Excuse the Anime thumbnails, but a few slides of the Naval Group presentation of the "Scorpene Evolved" to the TNI-AL.

Interesting to see their claim of similar endurance to an SSN. Hopefully this isn't just the usual fluff that's associated with French bids.

 

[Ananda]

Frenchie salesman also quite direct on comparing their product with the direct competition. Anyway if the rumours is correct on the MinDef definition of Attack Submarine as more ocean going then more litoral Tactical Submarine, this NG presentation answer MinDef requirements for Attack Submarine.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

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Excuse the Anime thumbnails, but a few slides of the Naval Group presentation of the "Scorpene Evolved" to the TNI-AL.

Interesting to see their claim of similar endurance to an SSN. Hopefully this isn't just the usual fluff that's associated with French bids.

It is remarkable that DCNS uses Guwra and Umaru-chan as mascots to promote their submarines...

So is the Indonesian version of the Scorpène a Brazilian one with the only difference the new Li-Ion battaries, or is it a smaller version only based on the Brazilian version?

 

[Ananda]

NG has not release the dimensions of this Scorpene Evolved. Frenchie salesman has not tweet or talk more in his VLOG. So seems they still keep it close in.

However as they are comparing with Brazilian version, and shown it has longer range and somewhat larger capacities, I sense this is at least as big as Brazilian ones with full Lithium battery.

 

[koxinga]

It seems to be a competitor to the Korean KSS-III, which is competing with them for the same customers (India, Canada, Philippines, maybe Poland) in recent years.

 

[ChestnutTree]

Another slide from the same presentation. From what I understand NG claims that it has increased submerged endurance and range compared to the Riachuelo class.

 

[Ananda]

France Offers New 'Scorpene Evolved' Li-Ion Submarine to Indonesia - Naval News

In its latest proposal to the Indonesian Navy, France's Naval Group is offering the new Scorpene Evolved submarine with Lithium-Ion battery

www.navalnews.com

The article from Naval News, seems from their Indonesian contributors. Basically similar but bit detail then Frenchie Salesman VLOG and Tweet. Plus some slides as @ChestnutTree already post before.

This according to Naval News as part of new offering that Naval Group going to offer to export market. As previous reported before, the production for two subs will be full in PAL facilities and NG also offering development for local production of Lithium Ion batteries. This clearly shown NG hope with all the production cooperation they offer, the two submarine will be part of first batch.

Add:
On VLOG related to him, the Frenchie salesman seems sure that French will got overall USD 12 bio contract. Most from Rafale, but if we see the rumours budget of Submarine, he seems sure also NG will get Submarine deal. Seems he's bullish on that.

 

[ChestnutTree]

I don't particularly trust them at their word. Ever since the Attack class fiasco with Australia, I'm pretty skeptical that the French would stick to their word when it comes to their bids. Looking through pass bids such as Romania, the Canadian CSC, and India; France's national champions industrial policy makes it that they tend to significantly underbid their competitors, while simultaneously promising products created on a very best case scenario, all the while simultaneously dinging the client for every unforeseen mishap using a combination of different interpretations of the language, or slowly leveraging to get certain requirements thrown out. .

The Attack class program for example started off with 80% offset with local Australian firms, only for then be gradually decreased to 50% as it went on and costs ballooned.

France isn't the only one guilty of this obviously, but their slides gives me the impression that they're looking to sell something on an idealized version of the contract, that may not actually correspond with reality.

 

[Ananda]

What NG seems backing on during their sales campaign (at least looking on their rep talk in media), shown their industrial relationship agreement with India and Brazil on Scorpene. Both India and Brazil basically have similar requirements that Indonesia looking on. All three have big coastal, big waters and similar waters conditions.

This is something that NG can claim their competitors (whether TKMS or DMSE) lack. Proven record being used by Tropical-Sub Tropical Navies (with large sea lines) for green-blue waters requirements. At least that's what seems their sales pitch strategy.

Other things in their sales arsenal:

Additionally, LIBs configuration is more consistent with the plan for Naval Group and the Indonesian state-owned shipbuilder, PT PAL, to, as part of the Scorpene deal, establish an Energy Research Lab in Indonesia with a focus on developing future submarine energy technology.

ToT for battery technology, are not something (at least officially) that the German and ROK are offering. Indonesian administration has big appetite for enlarging Indonesian batteries tech base. This is can also game changer card on tipping the balance during sales competition.

Yes, Frenchie assets is also not the cheapest to procure and maintain. Thus overall packages including Industrial, Tech and Financing will always be factors on decision making. Don't forget, Frenchie consider as more less political demanding suplier on Armament deals in the West. Relative compare to UK, German, Swedes and especially US. This is why I say several times before, Frenchie and Turkiye for Indonesia can also be consider as "compromise" toward political demands on balance sources for defense article procurements.

 

[koxinga]

ToT for battery technology, are not something (at least officially) that the German and ROK are offering. Indonesian administration has big appetite for enlarging Indonesian batteries tech base. This is can also game changer card on tipping the balance during sales competition.

Skeptical that they can offer significant ToT on the batteries. If they do, I doubt it will be the cutting edge LiB since these are still very new, probably other areas, nothing to do with the submarine batteries. Second reason is French battery tech if I am not mistaken comes from SAFT and IP should retain with them. They would have to work with and convince SAFT on this.

 

[Ananda]

Second reason is French battery tech if I am not mistaken comes from SAFT and IP should retain with them. They would have to work with and convince SAFT on this.

The deal actually part of agreement arrange by French MinDef with its Indonesian counterpart. Also this is part of NG Lithium Ion batteries tech that they're working with SAFT. I do believe NG will not put this in the table without SAFT participation.

https://gbp.com.sg/stories/naval-group-presents-a-new-gen-of-lithium-ion-batteries-for-submarines/

Off course NG will not going to offer the whole package tech deal. Nobody ever does that. Still even only part of that, what NG offering is to build facilities in Indonesia as part of their new lithium ion submarine batteries ecosystem. Like I say before, that's not something (Submarine energy solution tech) that either the German or ROK officially put in the table. For that, it is can be a tipping point on the overall deals.

NG so far also offer and build tech agreement with India and Brazil, and create them as part of NG ecosystem. For nations that have ambition to build their own submarine in the future, that kind of agreement is attractive for either Indonesia, India and Brazil. Also I do sense all three of them also see Frenchie as politically less demanding as armament suppliers. Those three nations have more or less similar political affinity.

 

[swerve]

What NG seems backing on during their sales campaign (at least looking on their rep talk in media), shown their industrial relationship agreement with India and Brazil on Scorpene. Both India and Brazil basically have similar requirements that Indonesia looking on. All three have big coastal, big waters and similar waters conditions.

This is something that NG can claim their competitors (whether TKMS or DMSE) lack. Proven record being used by Tropical-Sub Tropical Navies (with large sea lines) for green-blue waters requirements. At least that's what seems their sales pitch strategy.

Type 209 submarines were sold to tropical & sub-tropical navies - Brazil, Peru, Colombia, Ecuador, India, Indonesia, & Egypt (in the Red Sea). That's a lot of experience over many years.

 

[Ananda]

209 submarines were sold to tropical & sub-tropical navies - Brazil, Peru, Colombia, Ecuador, India, Indonesia, & Egypt (in the Red Sea). That's a lot of experience over many years.

Yes, but 209 is basically for litoral submarine capabilities. What NG offering now (as TNI-AL and MinDef specification for this attack submarine) is for more long range ocean going SSK. This is also what India and Brazil looking when NG sold them their Scorpene version.

Similar specs that Philippines also try to get, as why DSME now switch offer from 209-1400 to KSS3. Philippines asside NG and DSME, also attract Navantia with S-80. Philippines also more or less having waters and range requirements, that have similarities with India, Indonesia and Brazil.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

It is in my opinion quite remarkable that a country like the Philippines with such a limited defence budget and with no submarines at all in its fleet, plans to acquire large ocean going submarines.

Actually the Type 209/Chang Bogo class should be good enough having a range of over 8000 nm / 15.000 km.

 

[Ananda]

Recent move from Marcos administration, shown they have intentions to increase the budget. They are also looking for more MRCA for the AF. Perhaps there will be enough budget for Submarine. Still yes, must be seen if they will allocate more then 209 for Submarine.

Even with Indonesia, the classification for more Ocean going Attack Sub, and more litoral Tactical Sub (if the rumours is true on the classification description), potentially the 2nd batch 209-1400 with DSME-PAL can still happen. PAL seems officially still not ruling out the 2nd batch 209-1400 yet.



TNI-AL lately shown more exposure on their 209-1400, as seems try to shown public those Submarine are operational ready. The talk for Li-Ion collaboration with NG also being rumours to later on can be reffited to those 209.

In sense the future of 209 in either Indonesian or Philippines Navy, potentially still there. Despite all the talk, it is back to budget availability. Even Prabowo admitted that this Attack Submarine classification only number in 2 or potentially 4. The rest will mostly the more affordable tactical Submarine.

209 is prove so far reliable and affordable design. Especially for mostly littoral and insular operations in archipelago waters. It can be they will goes newer design for littoral subs. However if they're going to choose Scorpene for more capable attack submarines classification, I personally doubt they can afford more expensive ones for this tactical ones. Especially MinDef envisaged the Tactical Submarine will make majority portion of that 12 Submarines planning.

 

[T.C.P]

It is in my opinion quite remarkable that a country like the Philippines with such a limited defence budget and with no submarines at all in its fleet, plans to acquire large ocean going submarines.

Actually the Type 209/Chang Bogo class should be good enough having a range of over 8000 nm / 15.000 km.

I wonder how they are going about it. We got our first subs in 2016-2017 and they are the old Chinese Typr-035Gs. They are meant to teach our navy how to use subs. We spent more money on the newer submarine infrastructure then we did on our first submarines themselves. Two bases were built that can host the subs and the second one cost over a billion dollars.

With an economy similar to Philppines and with similar budgetary constraints, our military approaches to acquiring neweer capabilities have been slow and methodical. Granted Philipppines threat environment is much more different, it will be interesting to see how they manage to acquire ocean going submarine infrastructure, training and expertise quickly.