Indonesia: 'green water navy'

[swerve]

Type 31 - Babcock International
The Babcock site has the Type 31 as 138.7x19.8x5.0m. you are going to get people who will round that down to 138x19x5m, some will give the exact figures, some will round it up to 139x20x5m and some will say nearly 140m long and nearly 20m wide all using the same figures and it all makes it sound like 2 different designs. There is, also 2 different lengths used for ships, length between perpendiculars, from the Rudder to where the ship cuts the water and overall length.

Babcock says 138.7m LENGTH OVERALL - Type 31

The Danish navy says 138.7 - Fregatter but doesn't specify which length

Comparing those pictures with photos & drawings of the Iver Huitfeldt class (shipbucket, IVER HUITFELDT (2012- ), frigate, etc.) I don't see where they've added 5 metres.

 

[FOAC]

When you compare it with the parent design, looks as if it has been lengthened midships to accommodate additional VLS modules. Find a drawing of the Iver Huitfeldt. Radar suite looks to be Thales, which makes sense

 

[Ananda]

Yes, if the graphics that I put (from local enthusiast sources) really the final design, they are do lengthening the mid section. The area for VLS bit larger then the area on VLS in type 31.

Anyway it should supposedly to be answer soon, if PAL CEO claim in Jane's on first steel cut this month, really happening. They're already delay it several times already (according to local snippets). By that time they will shown real official specs.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Interesting....

|"Park was optimistic about the future of the program, suggesting that progress had been made in negotiations. Park said that he was not worried about the delayed L/C."|

We all know that he also knows that the contract is in a hopeless situation, its just trying to be positive in the press. I think the chance is very small that the acquisition of the three additional Type 209/1400 submarines will continue, and that besides DCNS even HDW has a bigger chance than DSME.

DSME Reveals More Details About Stalled Indonesian Submarine Program - Naval News

DSME CEO revealed new details about the delayed submarine contract between the company and Indonesia during the Jakarta International Expo.

www.navalnews.com

 

[Ananda]

think the chance is very small that the acquisition of the three additional Type 209/1400 submarines will continue, and that besides DCNS even

How about DSME got deal to build the second batch in their yard, while PAL work with NG on Scorpene in Surabaya. However to sealed the deal DSME agree to rectified electrical and battery problem on the first batch as one package.

PAL got their next learning curve with NG, while TNI-AL still got bargain quantity Subs from DSME (well DSME price is a bargain relative from German yards for 209-1400).

All this shown any scenario can potentially happen, after all this is Indonesia defense procurement. I put NG against German yard as it stand now, Frenchie have better possition then German on current MinDef. Beside they agree to work with Indonesia on Lithium Ion Battery manufacturing. Present administration like OEM that willing to provide battery tech.

 

[Ananda]

ELT group

ELT Group. Ready to take EMS forward. Again. We evolved our expertise in leading EMS through proprietary technologies, reaching new domains and answering worldwide protection needs.

www.elettronicagroup.com

This is already few days circulating on Indonesian enthusiats sites. On one side I commended MinDef progress on continues building and equiping TNI-AL new assets with comparable up dated equiment. One the other side still bit smack on my faces on continues this 'practise' of different equipment on each new projects.

This new indegenous OPV 90, previously reported will used Turkiye CMS and sensors. Also Turkiye SSM (Atmaca). Now seems also integrating new OEM from Italia, which previously never been choose. Different yards = different equipment = different "project".

Anyway specs wise this OPV 90 will be OPV in name only, but more corvette in configuration.

 

[Meriv90]

I think going Turk what you are losing is not so much "proven" missiles or offensive weapons, but you would be loosing on the EM suite. An aspect that a lot overlook on the ships equipment.
If not wrong we (Italians) and the French we learned our lesson trough the Marine conflict between Israel and Egypt where in the 60s the ECMs played a central role.

Called it (proud moment finally something i write became reality, lol)

 

[Ananda]

Called it

Congrats.., honestly I don't know what to expect before on this class of Indonesian OPV 90. Even now the make up for the rest of electronics and armaments seems being rumours going to Turkiye. Thus this news on Italian electronics got foot hold on the project, raise questions on what else going to be flipped.

Just another day of procurement process in Indonesian Government projects.

 

[Meriv90]

I'm more scared of the interaction of the two systems since, bluntily for us Italians and same for Turks, now that Russia showed their efficiency, we are each other main competitor in the region.

 

[SolarisKenzo]

Elettronica Is a state controlled Company, being part of Leonardo.
Leonardo's president Is a former General, Luciano Carta.
All the Sales of electronic or sensitive materials to non-NATO members goes thru a certain procedure of approval.
The systems sold to Egypt, Qatar, UAE, Indonesia...are export versions and do not contain sensible or top-secret material.
For example, Egypt had to pay several million euros to remove the systems onboard the FREMMs and replace them with less capable export versions.
The same procedure will be applied to these systems.
Indonesia Is buying an export version, still a capable system of course, but not even close to the ones operated by NATO.
Add this to the latest words from CSMD Admiral Cavo Dragone about tech superiority...

 

[Ananda]

Kementerian Pertahanan Republik Indonesia

Mewakili Kabaranahan Kemhan, Kapus Alpalhan Baranahan Kemhan Marsma TNI Yusran Lubis, memimpin Upacara Keel Laying Kapal Offshore Patrol Vessel (OPV) 90 m dan OPV , sebagai bagian dari pengadaan...

www.facebook.com

From Indonesian MinDef FB, on OPV 90 keel laying ceremony. Before Iast year the ceremony for commencing the work. This month also PAL should begin first steel cut of Arrow 140 derivative Frigates (if not delay anymore).

If the design work well I do see this (OPV 90) as potential back bone of Indonesian Navy patrolling force as ex DDR Parchim done now.

 

[swerve]

Elettronica Is a state controlled Company, being part of Leonardo......

The Italian state owns 30.7% of Leonardo's shares. Foreign institutional investors own more than 40%.

 

[SolarisKenzo]

The Italian state owns 30.7% of Leonardo's shares. Foreign institutional investors own more than 40%.

Its irrelevant.
The vast majority of the dispersed 40% Is composed of shares without the right to vote.
The CDA Is nominated by the Italian government after a political vote and the CEO and President are then appointed by a joint assembly between the politically-nominated administrators and the Italian Republic Treasury ( CdP ).

The same thing for Fincantieri.

You can read more in their websites:

Consiglio di Amministrazione

www.leonardo.com

Fincantieri | Consiglio di amministrazione

Il Consiglio di Amministrazione della Società è l’organo centrale del sistema di corporate governance della Società.

www.fincantieri.com

I will also link you the website of the Italian Government where you can find all the state-controlled societies in the world.

Elenco delle partecipazioni dirette del Ministero dell'Economia e delle Finanze - MEF Dipartimento del Tesoro

www.dt.mef.gov.it

Società partecipate

Ministero delle Imprese e del Made in Italy

www.mise.gov.it

Also, I'm Sorry I was forgetting that 30,7% Is only the share owned by CdP.
Other State-institutions own another 7,2%

 

[swerve]

The official English version of Leonardo's Articles of Association, dated 2019, says
"Art. 6 6.1 The shares are registered and each share shall carry one voting right"

The only exception to that I've found is that nobody except the Italian state shareholders & other approved institutions can vote more than 3% of the company's shares. That shouldn't matter, though, because as far as I can see no shareholder except the Italian state has more than 3%, so they can vote all their shares. I've found a mention of a change to governance being voted for by 57% of share capital, & against by 43%, which implies that votes are proportional to shares.

Where on the sites you link to does it say there are voting & non-voting shares? I've not found it.

 

[SolarisKenzo]

The official English version of Leonardo's Articles of Association, dated 2019, says
"Art. 6 6.1 The shares are registered and each share shall carry one voting right"

The only exception to that I've found is that nobody except the Italian state shareholders & other approved institutions can vote more than 3% of the company's shares. That shouldn't matter, though, because as far as I can see no shareholder except the Italian state has more than 3%, so they can vote all their shares. I've found a mention of a change to governance being voted for by 57% of share capital, & against by 43%, which implies that votes are proportional to shares.

Where on the sites you link to does it say there are voting & non-voting shares? I've not found it.

If I'm not wrong, you can find everything here

La disciplina del golden power: quadro normativo

temi.camera.it

DICA Att GoldenPower

Al fine di salvaguardare gli assetti delle imprese operanti in ambiti ritenuti strategici e di interesse nazionale, con il decreto-legge 15 marzo 2012 n. 21 (convertito con modificazioni dalla legge n.

www.governo.it

There should be written all the special powers hold by CdP... Such as the right to exclude other shareholders from voting, the right to stop selling shares to certain buyers, the power to exercise total control in defence, infrastructures, strategical, Energy and other companies...

I havent been into this for some years so please tell me if you Need more info.

Regarding the " right to vote" I made a mistake in traslating from Italian, by the book every share has a vote, but in reality only the government ones ( and you should find that in the links I sent in this message) are effective in many votings...

 

[swerve]

A golden share - that exists in quite a few countries in cases where an asset is considered of vital national interest, such as electricity grids or national defence. It's not what you originally claimed, but I see that you agree that you were mistaken on non-voting shares.

Golden shares are rarely used, in general, & as well as legal limits there are customary limits, for the very good reason that overuse, or capricious use, puts off private investors. The fact that over 40% of Leonardo's shares are foreign-owned, mainly by investment funds that are keen on making profits (one shareholder I noticed runs one of my pension funds), suggests that they're content that in normal circumstances the Italian state doesn't exercise its golden share.

 

[SolarisKenzo]

As you say, the vast majority of the foreign owned 40% ( that is still a relatively low percentage compared to most companies) is made of actors that arent interested in the political and strategic plan of the company.
That means that 37% ( the total owned by italian institutions, 30,7+7 more or less ) is more than enough to have total control of the company.
I apologise if I reported wrong things about the right to vote, I havent much time to check and I rely on what I learned during the years. I have no problems admitting I'm wrong.
But I'd also like to point out that I never said it is a state-owned company.
My words were " State controlled". Which is exactly what it is.

However, going back into topic, I'd like to ask If anyone from Indonesia can explain me what happened to the FREMM procurement...Was it canceled?
I've never had the time to look exactly at what happened and the lack of infos made me curious...
Thanks

 

[Ananda]

I'd like to ask If anyone from Indonesia can explain me what happened to the FREMM procurement...Was it canceled?

Technically it is still going, question now on negotiation on final packages and payment financing schedulles. There's no official information on result of final negotiation yet. So I just put some rumours:

1. Financing scheddule being set in 2023 or 2024. Thus means work commencing in Fincantieri yard by next year as the soonest.

2. Final packages being rumoures either still 6 or become 4. The later come from Rumours that the 2 FREMM that plan to be build by PAL going to be switch to 2nd batch of 2 Arrowhead 140 based frigates. This as PAL going to commence work with 1st batch of 2 Arrowhead 140, thus it will be more difficult for them to work on two types of Frigattes.

3. Final propulsion design still being discussed. As Indonesian Navy want to explore changes on FREMM propulsions from CODAG to CODAD or CODADe. Indonesian Navy so far still not keen much on operating Gas Turbine due to operational costs concern.

So, It is not cancelled (yet), and there's enough rumours there's enough support from Indonesian MinDef and Finance Peoples to sort out financing payment packages with Fincantieri. The questions remain is the # still 6 or become 4.

There's also rumours that I heard from SOE ministry colleagues that PAL will used Babcock as partner on their Frigate program, and Fincantieri for Corvettes program. Actually Fincantieri and PAL already work in previous administrations on Indonesian Nasional Corvette program (call Kornas in Indonesian).

Thus this make potential for either 4 or 6 FREMM being build all in Italia, while Fincantieri will help tech transfer to PAL for corvettes design and manufacturing process in PAL yard.

Still this is Indonesia, and as I have point out several times Indonesian threads, anything can change until payment effectives and work being done. Even then, it is still can change. One thing for sure for Indonesian Bureaucracies, they like 'projects' and keep changing/adjusts them.

 

[Ananda]

Kembangkan Ranjau Laut, DAHANA Jalin Kerjasama dengan Perusahaan Spanyol

PT DAHANA menandatangani perjanjian penelitian, pengembangan dan produksi ranjau laut bersama SOCIEDAD ANÓNIMA DE ELECTRÓNICA SUBMARINA (SAES) Spanyol dan ...

m.antaranews.com

Bit old news as this part of signing in early this month on Indo Defence. However put it in here, just to shown what mostly the trend on Local Defense Industry (especially the SOE) at this moment is working on others mature design. Taking with local subcontractor then basically (at least in begining) assemble in Indonesia with some local parts.

 

[Ananda]

Thales, PT Len to upgrade Indonesian corvettes

The Indonesian Navy's (Tentara Nasional Indonesia Angkatan Laut: TNI-AL's) four Diponegoro-class corvettes will be equipped with the Thales' TACTICOS Baseline 2 combat...

www.janes.com

Jane's article coming from Thales source, claim Thales already secure Radars and CMS on building and upgrades for all present TNI-AL first line surface fleet. This means 2 PKR Sigma 10514 Light Frigates, 3 Bung Tomo Corvettes and 4 Diponegoro Sigma 9213 Corvettes.

So despite Terma in some of FAC's (KCR) and Fatahilla Corvettes upgrade, Havelsan in newly build FAC/KCR and OPV 90, Therma do manage to still clintch First line surface fleets. Indicating they do have solid program with LEN as leads Contractor on TNI electronics integration.

Despite PAL CEO claim with Jane's previously, on doing First Steel cut this month for Arrowhead Based Frigate, no news confirming on this yet. This is already closing in to end of month, lets see if this means another delay. Will be interesting to see not only final dimensions specs of this Frigate, but also electronics specs.