Indonesia: 'green water navy'

[Ananda]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1616518926715740160

For last few days, tweeter guy as Euro OEM sales agent, already tweet few times on matter of FREMM. Seems lobbies between some OEM sales intensified, as tendencies some of the projects fot risk to be dropped.

From all big items projects F-15EX and FREMM seems having risk to be drop either one ot both of them. Also rumours on TNI-AL insistence on Ships with affordable propulsion. TNI-AL for sometimes already hinted in media, that having more affordable propulsion is important. They at this moments still struggle with fuel costs budget. This is one of reasons being talk why they are not keen much on any vessels with Gas Propulsions. Also seems Naval Gas Propulsions support infrastructure in Indonesia is not big, and TNI-AL seems reluctant to invest on that.

Now being rumours Indonesia want to drop ROK offer for excess Pohang Corvettes, and begin to entertain China offer for excess Type 56 Corvettes. All this still rumours circulating, but I put it since so far indication it is rumours with enough bases. They are talk on politics to not sidelines PRC, but also because Pohang is CODAG and Type 56 is CODAD.

This is one of Rumours that I heard from Finance guys, that PAL try to lobby for more order of their version of Arrowhead 140 (call Red-White Frigate). If that's true, then it can happen more likely by sacrificing FREMM. Either way one advantage of Arrowhead 140 base design asside PAL got full license from Babcock for domestic production, is CODAD. The preference propulsion by TNI-AL.

Let's see how this turn out.

 

[Ananda]

Follow on Twitter Guy 'doomsday' ranting tweet due to his FREMM project has not got budget allocation yet.

Turkish Indigenous VLS 'MIDLAS' Performs First Ever Launch - Naval News

Turkish missile manufacturer Roketsan conducted the first test launch of the indigenous vertical launch system (VLS) called MIDLAS.

www.navalnews.com

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1617250749276213248

Now his take up a notch on Aster future in Indonesian Navy will not going to happen, because FREMM still in limbo. Off course those are salesman ranting try to up public opinions. So I just add Turkiye MIDLAS Naval VLS with HISAR area SAM. Similar Mid-Long Range SAM system that Indonesian MinDef already sign in last Indodefence. Can't help but to poke his self important tweets.

I just like to imagine his tweet if Indonesian Navy also goes with Turkiye HISAR instead ASTER. I also like to imagine how the reaction of some defense enthusiasts communities if HISAR instead ASTER that got the deal for TNI-AL area SAM.

Off course this is all just speculation, but will be interesting to see those defense 'analysts' aka salesmen reactions in media (on line or printed ones), if their Euro Stuff got cut by not US, or Russian assets, but with another Turkish assets.

On the other hand there is logistical logics if Naval area SAM goes with HISAR rather then ASTER, with land based area SAM (called Trisula system in Indonesian term) will be build around HISAR based systems.

 

[Ananda]

Facebook

www.facebook.com

From Keris FB. This is seems further development on Submarine Rescue Vehicle procurement for TNI-AL. Seems they already aiming on UK producers for that system.

 

[Ananda]

Pujian Diplomat AS untuk Bakamla, Coast Guard Kelas Dunia!

Lisa menyebutkan, dia dan tim US Coast Guard telah berkunjung ke Batam untuk memberikan pelatihan pada personel Bakamla.

www.medcom.id

Bakamla-AS tingkatkan kerja sama keamanan maritim

Badan Keamanan Laut (Bakamla) RI dan Amerika Serikat meningkatkan kerja sama untuk mendukung keamanan wilayah perairan dan wilayah yurisdiksi Indonesia dari ...

www.antaranews.com

This related toward USCG co-op with Bakamla (Indonesian Coast Guard). Don't read much on US Assistant State Secretary praise on Bakamla. Bakamla still has long way to go to be real viable Maritime Cobstabularies forces. However more on underlying tone on US cooperation for maritime securities.

This actually in my opinion better US diplomacies then on Naval cooperation. Disputes in SCS better handle through maritime Cobstabularies engagement rather then Naval stand off.

 

[Ananda]

Noahtu Shipyard

noahtushipyard.com

Noahtu Shipyard (DRU Shipyard before) in Batam shown official rendering in their website of OPV 90. The first OPV now under construction in their Batam yard.



This picture from that site. Thus it's shown what they call OPV is actually clearly a Corvette/Light Frigates catagory. By this rendering it shown armament and facilities that differ to what's traditionally known as OPV.

Previous information from Indofence shown those OPV will use Turkiye CMS, but not official yet is whether also using Turkish sensors or amament. It is rumours negotiation still on going for combo Havelsan CMS and Thales Sensors. However not secret that Turkiye lobby on Combo of Havelsan-Aselsan total electronics and sensors package.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1616518926715740160

For last few days, tweeter guy as Euro OEM sales agent, already tweet few times on matter of FREMM. Seems lobbies between some OEM sales intensified, as tendencies some of the projects fot risk to be dropped.

From all big items projects F-15EX and FREMM seems having risk to be drop either one ot both of them. Also rumours on TNI-AL insistence on Ships with affordable propulsion. TNI-AL for sometimes already hinted in media, that having more affordable propulsion is important. They at this moments still struggle with fuel costs budget. This is one of reasons being talk why they are not keen much on any vessels with Gas Propulsions. Also seems Naval Gas Propulsions support infrastructure in Indonesia is not big, and TNI-AL seems reluctant to invest on that.

Now being rumours Indonesia want to drop ROK offer for excess Pohang Corvettes, and begin to entertain China offer for excess Type 56 Corvettes. All this still rumours circulating, but I put it since so far indication it is rumours with enough bases. They are talk on politics to not sidelines PRC, but also because Pohang is CODAG and Type 56 is CODAD.

This is one of Rumours that I heard from Finance guys, that PAL try to lobby for more order of their version of Arrowhead 140 (call Red-White Frigate). If that's true, then it can happen more likely by sacrificing FREMM. Either way one advantage of Arrowhead 140 base design asside PAL got full license from Babcock for domestic production, is CODAD. The preference propulsion by TNI-AL.

Let's see how this turn out.

Whatever happen, i really hope that our government will not try to get those chinese trash.

Noahtu Shipyard

noahtushipyard.com

Noahtu Shipyard (DRU Shipyard before) in Batam shown official rendering in their website of OPV 90. The first OPV now under construction in their Batam yard.

View attachment 50039

This picture from that site. Thus it's shown what they call OPV is actually clearly a Corvette/Light Frigates catagory. By this rendering it shown armament and facilities that differ to what's traditionally known as OPV.

Previous information from Indofence shown those OPV will use Turkiye CMS, but not official yet is whether also using Turkish sensors or amament. It is rumours negotiation still on going for combo Havelsan CMS and Thales Sensors. However not secret that Turkiye lobby on Combo of Havelsan-Aselsan total electronics and sensors package.

How more HSA/Thales Nederland content, how more efficiently and easier it will be for the navy. But i understand if the OPV90 will get Turkish equipment to suppress the costs.
So this image above is now officially DRU's final design for the OPV90? "98-mtr OPV" sounds like a new and larger design.

 

[koxinga]

Noahtu Shipyard (DRU Shipyard before) in Batam shown official rendering in their website of OPV 90. The first OPV now under construction in their Batam yard.
This picture from that site. Thus it's shown what they call OPV is actually clearly a Corvette/Light Frigates catagory. By this rendering it shown armament and facilities that differ to what's traditionally known as OPV.

The design is a near like-for-like copy of the Sigma/Diponegoro class corvettes. No real surprise and a good choice. Did they get any design support or IP from Damen?

 

[Ananda]

really hope that our government will not try to get those chinese trash.

Question if the rumours is right, is TNI-AL preference for operating only CODAD vessels. If interim corvettes still being pursue, then question is where to find used CODAD corvettes.

PAL already have converted Fatahila Corvettes during MLU from CODOG to CODAD. Perhaps they (or other yards) can do the same with Pohang (as example). Question will remain if doing conversion jobs for interim corvettes will be worthwhile.

this image above is now officially DRU's final design for the OPV90? "98-mtr OPV" sounds like a new and larger design.

Yes, they are enlarging the design. This one seems like Diponegoro (SIGMA 9113) giving extension which includes bit longer heli pad and hangar.

Did they get any design support or IP from Damen?

Officially Noahtu say this is their designs. However considering this is first "corvettes" that they're doing, it won't be surprising if they got "consultant" when doing the design. However who are they it's not open information to the public.

Anyway:


Just add SIGMA 9814 that once being offered to Vietnamese. We can take our own conclusions on the designs of Noahtu OPV 98 with this

 

[Ananda]

Indonesia approves proposal to procure ex-South Korean corvettes

In an apparent about-turn, the Indonesian Ministry of Finance (MoF) has approved a previously rejected proposal for the country to purchase ex-Republic of Korea Navy...

www.janes.com

Who says K-Drama is the only play in town. I-Drama is also has twists that can be predictable in one hand, but also some surprises. Now just wondering if they're going to invest with the kind of modifications that Fatahila Corvettes class got, conversion from CODAG to CODAD.

If yes, then next question also if the works done in Indonesian yards or Korean ones. Anyway this's really twists of K-Drama meet I-Drama.

Talking about Fatahila Corvettes, it's been official they are move to New 3rd Fleet which handle Eastern Indonesia water. Right now only two corvettes that already done MLU refitting going to move, Fatahila and Malahayati. However the last boat (Nala) in the class also being talk to move toward 3rd fleet, after conducting MLU refitting.

Those ships now more appropriate as OPV then corvettes. Puting them in 3rd fleet in my opinion shown TNI Brass see on more nature of patrolling in Eastern Indonesia waters, then potential show down on potential conflicts (as in 1st and 2nd fleet).

Then again it is also potential because that's the available refitting ships that available. Will be interesting if they go ahead with Pohang, doing similar modifications job as in Fatahila (make them more as OPV then corvettes), will they as going to be send to 3rd fleet also.

Perkuat Pengamanan Armada III Akan Ditambah Alutsista Baru

Dua Kapal Perang Republik Indonesia yakni KRI Fatahillah 361 dan KRI Malahayati 362. Akan ditambahkan guna meningkatkan pengamanan kemaritiman pada wilayah huku

www.kompas.tv

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Indonesia approves proposal to procure ex-South Korean corvettes

In an apparent about-turn, the Indonesian Ministry of Finance (MoF) has approved a previously rejected proposal for the country to purchase ex-Republic of Korea Navy...

www.janes.com

Who says K-Drama is the only play in town. I-Drama is also has twists that can be predictable in one hand, but also some surprises. Now just wondering if they're going to invest with the kind of modifications that Fatahila Corvettes class got, conversion from CODAG to CODAD.

If yes, then next question also if the works done in Indonesian yards or Korean ones. Anyway this's really twists of K-Drama meet I-Drama.

Talking about Fatahila Corvettes, it's been official they are move to New 3rd Fleet which handle Eastern Indonesia water. Right now only two corvettes that already done MLU refitting going to move, Fatahila and Malahayati. However the last boat (Nala) in the class also being talk to move toward 3rd fleet, after conducting MLU refitting.

Those ships now more appropriate as OPV then corvettes. Puting them in 3rd fleet in my opinion shown TNI Brass see on more nature of patrolling in Eastern Indonesia waters, then potential show down on potential conflicts (as in 1st and 2nd fleet).

Then again it is also potential because that's the available refitting ships that available. Will be interesting if they go ahead with Pohang, doing similar modifications job as in Fatahila (make them more as OPV then corvettes), will they as going to be send to 3rd fleet also.

Perkuat Pengamanan Armada III Akan Ditambah Alutsista Baru

Dua Kapal Perang Republik Indonesia yakni KRI Fatahillah 361 dan KRI Malahayati 362. Akan ditambahkan guna meningkatkan pengamanan kemaritiman pada wilayah huku

www.kompas.tv

|"Janes first reported in October 2022 that the MoD had requested to procure at least one ex-RoKN Pohang-class corvette as a stopgap measure for the Indonesian Navy. "|
I don't see the logic that they need urgently one single second hand corvette which also needs overhaul and modifications.

 

[Ananda]

Details provided in the 7 December notice indicate that this proposal was re-submitted by the MoD on 28 October, in addition to a list of other proposed procurements, such as shipborne munitions. The MoD has now cleared the MoF to take on up to USD21 million in foreign loans to fund the proposed acquisition of up to three Pohang-class corvettes.

Jane's actually also put the acquisition is for up to three vessels. Just like the Air Force, interim assets being source as it is means the initial procurement number for new assets either being drop or resize.

In other word, the schedules for new assets is being push back. So interim assets come as stop gap. My suspect at least a stop gap for at least a decade or more.

 

[deadlast]

Looking to the picture it looks like the MHV60 design will be armed with the Mauser BK 27 after all, that's bad news, adding another new never used by TNI-AL caliber while they also can install a 30 or 40 mm gun is not the smartest thing they can do.

Good news, it's not BK-27/MLG 27 RCWS.

Bad news, it is new 20mm caliber, 20x128mm Oerlikon KAE autocannon on Oerlikon Searanger 20 RCWS from Rheinmetall.
So actually double bad news lol, new RCWS with new 20mm caliber to boot.

 

[Ananda]

Is the problem for various ammo standard happen mostly in 20mm and 30mm ? I thought 12.7 mm already used NATO standard, while 40mm use bofors, 57mm either bofors or Russian ones, and 76mm using oto melara.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

If im not wrong the Denel GA-1 uses 20×82, Denel GI-2 20 × 139 like the Rheinmetall Rh202, and the Yugoimport M71/08 uses the 20×110.
Was it really not possible to choose one of these three? Or maybe something like the GIAT Narwhal 20B which uses the 20×139.


Well, lets think positive. It is suitable for its role to destroy sea mines at a distance up to 2 km, and it is also able to mess up the day of pirates, smugglers and terrorists.

And yes, these minehunters are large enough to get the Oto Melara Marlin 30 mm installed.

 

[deadlast]

Is the problem for various ammo standard happen mostly in 20mm and 30mm ? I thought 12.7 mm already used NATO standard, while 40mm use bofors, 57mm either bofors or Russian ones, and 76mm using oto melara.

All across the range pretty much. Navy and Marine corps (they are technically still part of the navy) used bunch of mixed caliber.

On the smaller caliber (Rifle/MG) they use:

• .30-06 (Garand, FN Model D, M1919)
• 5,56x45mm NATO (AR, HK, FN, etc)
• 7,62x51mm NATO (AR, HK, FN, etc)
• 7,62x54mmR (Mosin, Goryunov, PKT)
• 7,62x39mm (AKs, vz 58, SKS, RPD)
• 12,7x99mm (M2, M85, SPR-2, M93)
• 12,7x108mm (DShK, NSV)

On the medium caliber, they have:

• 4 type of 20mm:
  • 20x82mm (Denel GA-1, NTW-20)
  • 20x110mm Hispano (Yugoimport M71)
  • 20x110mmRB (Old WW2 Oerlikon L70)
  • 20x139mm (Rheinmetall Rh202, Denel GI-2, AMX-10P)
• 1 type of 25mm
  • 25x218mm (Soviet 2M-3 twin gun)
• 4 type of 30mm:
  • 30x165mm (NG-18/AK-630 CIWS, BTR-80A, BTR-4, BMP-3, BVP-2)
  • 30x170mm (Oerlikon GCM, MSI DS-30B)
  • 30x173mm (MSI LW30M A1, MSI DS30M A1, OTO Marlin WS, Type 730 CIWS)
  • 30x210mmB (AK-230)
• 1 type of 35mm:
  • 35x228mm (Oerlikon Millennium CIWS, Type 90)
• 1 type of 37mm:
  • 37x252mmSR (Soviet M1939)
• 2 type of 40mm:
  • 40x311mmR (Bofors L/60: QF Mark III, QF Mark VII)
  • 40x364mmR (Bofors L/70, Bofors SAK-40/L70-315, SAK-40/L70-350AFD, SAK-40/L70-520, SAK-40/L70-600, OTO Breda 40mm L70 MEL, OTO Marlin 40, Marlin Twin 40L70, L&T Teevra 40)
• 2 type of 57mm:
  • 57x348mmR (Burevestnik AU-220M, AK-725)
  • 57x438mmR (Bofors SAK 57 Mark I, II, III)

On the larger caliber they use:

• 76,2x385mm (PT-76)
• 76,2x636mmR (OTO Melara 76)
• 90x353mmR Cockerill MkIII (PT-76)
• 90x598mmR CN-90-F4 (AMX-10PAC90)
• 100mm 2A70 (BMP-3)
• 105x372mmR NATO (LG1)
• 122x284mmR (Soviet M1938)
• 120x616mmR (Bofors TAK120)

And yes, these minehunters are large enough to get the Oto Melara Marlin 30 mm installed.

Yep, their original design (Frankenthal-class) used to have Bofors SAK-40/L70-600 before being replaced by MLG 27.

 

[Ananda]

Put PT. PAL video on 2022 corp profile. This is their latest PR video, thus just any standard PR it is begin with background, self congratulate achievements and then next projects.

The last ones is the reason why I put this video. Begin at 3:10 with Indonesia defense minister Prabowo openly challange PAL to developed indigenous submarine projects in next five years. Off course indigenous in here means under license projects.

Curious tough, they talk about Submarines but not on Arrowhead 140 Frigate. Seems after Indodefence, they keep quiet on this project. Before they are always talking on this one. Asside the leaks on first steel cut, they kept the lid on this project progress (if any).

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

For me this is actually a bad sign. Large projects are normally used by politicians for everything, specially for self-promotion. So if it stays quiet, then it almost smells like that this Iver Huitfeldt/Arrowhead 140 project will be put on hold, to eventually fade away into nothing. Like the Elang Hitam UAV, Type 209/1400 second batch, N245, EH101 and many other programs...initially proudly announced, then it is put on hold, then it stays in the shadows for more than a year, and in the end...totally disappeared.

If the frigate-program will be replaced by six new FREMM-vessels or by a bunch of 2nd hand 2nd grade chinese corvettes, we will see.

 

[Ananda]

So if it stays quiet, then it almost smells like that this Iver Huitfeldt/Arrowhead 140 project will be put on hold,

This project already has budget allocation and work contract. Some funds is talk already been released. I'm more concerned PAL do Boustead mess up in LCS program. Just like Boustead that work on modifications of original Gowind design with NG consultant, PAL also work with modifications of original Arrowhead design with Babcock consultant.

Well let's see how this goes, what you're worries about can also happen.

 

[Ananda]

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid02WNnApnrpoLTqDDk7XVY55jTxyAiSNiRfgibE7JVM1mzbBiFtqT1h1GPUnea95nzXl&id=100064801353844&mibextid=Nif5oz

Indonesian MinDef FB pages on the meeting with Japanese Ambassador toward MHI Co-op for 8 Frigates. Thus this means officially the co-op with MHI on FFM/Mogami based frigates still in progress. This is against some speculation in Media that Italian Fincantieri already beat MHI with FREEM.

Kementerian Pertahanan Republik Indonesia

www.kemhan.go.id

Above it's same article but from MinDef website.

In fact as even some Euro Defense Salesman talk on potential FREMM deal in limbo as no budget being allocated yet, I will not be surprised if Japan with MHI sideline FREMM deals (worse come to worse).

As I have been put in Indonesian threads before, don't underestimate Japanese lobby power with Indonesian Bureaucracy (whatever administration). Japan already Indonesia leading investors for the last half century more. They know how to push right button, and Japan can provide multiple financing scheme.

Japan are fighting their commercial and Political interest not just in Indonesia but also rest of SEA. They are more straight forward now to get military projects. Western media talk on how Chinese projects and Investment crowding ASEAN. However for us in the market, we know cumulatively Japan still hold leads (even tough facing stiff Chinese competition).

Let's see if Japan can get similar success on penetrate military market as they already done on other commercial markets.

Add:

Just realise they change the description of the article and omitted all mentioned on the Frigates deals. Seems somebody just realized the deal still need to be covered. However enough in Indonesian enthusiast forums already see the original article (before they change it).

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid02WNnApnrpoLTqDDk7XVY55jTxyAiSNiRfgibE7JVM1mzbBiFtqT1h1GPUnea95nzXl&id=100064801353844&mibextid=Nif5oz

Indonesian MinDef FB pages on the meeting with Japanese Ambassador toward MHI Co-op for 8 Frigates. Thus this means officially the co-op with MHI on FFM/Mogami based frigates still in progress. This is against some speculation in Media that Italian Fincantieri already beat MHI with FREEM.

Kementerian Pertahanan Republik Indonesia

www.kemhan.go.id

Above it's same article but from MinDef website.

In fact as even some Euro Defense Salesman talk on potential FREMM deal in limbo as no budget being allocated yet, I will not be surprised if Japan with MHI sideline FREMM deals (worse come to worse).

As I have been put in Indonesian threads before, don't underestimate Japanese lobby power with Indonesian Bureaucracy (whatever administration). Japan already Indonesia leading investors for the last half century more. They know how to push right button, and Japan can provide multiple financing scheme.

Japan are fighting their commercial and Political interest not just in Indonesia but also rest of SEA. They are more straight forward now to get military projects. Western media talk on how Chinese projects and Investment crowding ASEAN. However for us in the market, we know cumulatively Japan still hold leads (even tough facing stiff Chinese competition).

Let's see if Japan can get similar success on penetrate military market as they already done on other commercial markets.

Add:

Just realise they change the description of the article and omitted all mentioned on the Frigates deals. Seems somebody just realized the deal still need to be covered. However enough in Indonesian enthusiast forums already see the original article (before they change it).

Let's wait and see how this develops. We just have to prepare ourselves mentally for the worst case scenario: that after years of hesitation and plot twists the current administration still has not make a decision between the 30FFM, FREMM and Iver Huitfeldt/Arrowhead 140 and that after 2024 the next administration put the fregat acquisition program on hold ...

Hopefully not yet posted before here.

The DSAR-15 is a 5,56×45mm NATO short-stroke piston AR-15 type assault rifle derived from HK416 and CAR 816 designed by Dasan Machineries from South-Korea. DSAR-15P is a modified version of the DSAR15 in 3 different barrel length available: 11,5" (CBQ), 14,5" (carbine), and 16" (rifle).

So from this 11,5" (29,21 cm) CBQ variant 650 pieces are bought last year for special forces units from the different branches of TNI.

The Dasan DSAR15P is also in use with Bakamla's Special Response Team.