Are the Turkish system able to integrate with Exocet?
Indonesia: 'green water navy'
- Thread starter Supe
- Start date
Yep, L&T Teevra 40 and OTO Marlin 40 are based on Bofors 40mm L/70 gun, they all use the same 40x364mmR cartridges. The other 40mm in navy inventory is the old Bofors 40mm L/60 guns on current KRI Teluk Bintuni & Sibarau-class, using 40x311mmR cartridges.
Btw, on Leonardo press release we are also mentioned as the user of the Marlin 40 twin barrel,
The last time twin barrel 40mm gun (then Dardo) were mentioned, it was rumored to be installed on the LPDs.
I didn't ask. Tesco wouldn't know anyway. I should be asking Havelsan but I didn't hear that the new batch will be using Havelsan's CMS until after I left. FWIW the CMS should use NATO standard protocols. The website claims it's compliant with Link 11, Link 16, and so on. So it should work with Exocet since that also uses NATO standards.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Thales Strengthens its Leading Position in the Indonesian Defence Industry
• At IndoDefence 2022, DEFEND ID and Thales have signed several agreements reaffirming their commitment to supporting the ongoing modernisation and digitalisation of the defence sector in Indonesia.
Reading on this clearly LEN involvement with Thales on Tacticos as CMS on various TNI-AL surface fleets still going strong presently and in future. So I just speculating in here that perhaps future CMS for Primary combatan will used Thales Tacticos stuff and Secondary combatan will used Havelsen Advent as CMS
Yes some upgrade program already used Terma C-Flex CMS, but still as TNI is not big on uniform, however at least either Terma, Thales, or Havelsan all are using NATO Euro based system. So either way they supposed can still talk to each other.
Even so call LEN indigenous CMS Mandhala is based on their work with Thales. Either way I do see Havelsan will have to work with LEN, and LEN already working with Thales for long time and seems also in future.
The working base environment with Thales involved quite big range of Electronics, Sensors Communications and Radars environment. So despite this new deal with Havelsan, I see this not as TNI-AL going to use more Havelsan stuff in future, but more on 'economics' consideration.
As deadlast already point out that Oto 40mm and L&T 40 mm using same ammo and based on same tech, thus seems economics that drive why some use Oto and other use L&T 40mm.
Hopefully this combo of Tacticos, C-Flex, Advent or even future iteration of LEN Mandhala still basically based on similar system. Thus like in 40mm, it is just matter of pricing consideration.
On that perhaps expectations on more expensive Thales stuff will going to be used on more expensive primary assets.
Add:
Some local forum and blogs call asside future KCR, also the OPV will use Advent. They also talk on Arrow 140 will use Advent. We'll see about that on the Frigate. I do still think the Frigate will still based on Thales stuff but the OPV and KCR either used Havelsan or Terma.
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The frigate is definitely using Turkish CMS (im guessing for the arrowhead 140). There's an article published by the minDef just recently that lists all the contracts agreement signed with Turkiye, and it mentions explicitly Frigate CMS I believe... along with that brand new Turkish Anti Ship Missile.
https://www.kemhan.go.id/2022/11/07...eIaoY_XvC6Z9CAdDFgnwRQX3NsB4IpJzzv8BFlJSfx5tk
https://www.kemhan.go.id/2022/11/07...eIaoY_XvC6Z9CAdDFgnwRQX3NsB4IpJzzv8BFlJSfx5tk
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Well that's dissapointing. We don't know yet how is the progress with FREMM, and Arrow 140 more or less presently the only Frigate program that's have money trail back it up already. Using Turkiye system or even Turkiye weapons, means they are cutting cost on the program.
I'm not going to say Turkiye system and armament are less capable then French ones, but certaintly less proven. For sure is more 'economics' (cheaper just to blatant).
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Indo Defence 2022: Indonesia prepares to cut steel on first ‘Red White' frigate
Indonesian state-owned shipbuilder PT PAL is preparing to start work on the country's first Iver Huitfeldt-class frigate and will hold a steel-cutting ceremony for the...
www.janes.com
Jane's put article that talk PAL CEO claim the first cut steel for first Arrowhead 140 based Frigates will be held this month. This's after rumours the first steel cut will happen in August coincide with Indonesian independence month. He claim the program call "Fregat Merah-Putih" or Red-White Frigate program.
I like they way this administration officials goes image building and call their program "Red and White" even tough the design or even the building block still imported. Never mind, when you call it "Merah-Putih" it is fitting for image 'Karya Anak Bangsa" (indigenous design).
Anyway let's see which systems and armament they will put in that Frigates in the end. Talking on Turkiye missiles :
Roketsan’dan Endonezya’ya TriSula Hava Savunma Füzeleri, KHAN ve ATMACA İhracatı
Roketsan, Endonezya’ya; TriSula Orta/Yüksek İrtifa Hava Savunma Füzeleri, KHAN Topçu Füzesi ile ATMACA Gemisavar Füzesi ihracatı gerçekleştirdi.
www.savunmasanayist.com
This Turkiye media talk basically asside Khan Long Range MLRS (I put it in Indonesian Army thread), Roketsan also make agreement with Indonesian SOE defense companies for Atmaca SSM and Hisar Based SAM system. The SAM system will be call TriSula (Trident) as it will be 'tailor'/bespoke made for Indonesian requirements, with some different systems then existing Turkiye ones.
So what Arji put on this Turkiye SSM getting traction in MinDef all round agreement with Turkiye. Does Turkiye really win big on Indo Defence. Understandable, Turkiye need customers for their blooming defense industry. Thus seems they are willing to work on perhaps generous pricing and some bespoke requirement adjustment.
Honestly, I think this just means Hisar on Tatra trucks, maybe Czech radar.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Well the Retia Radar system basically need bespoke arrangements by Roketsan to be combined with their Hisar based systems. We can speculate why MinDef want to combine it with Retia Radar system and not original Turkiye Radar system on their present operational Hisar SAM system.
Still it's in the end a bespoke arrangements, as you need more adjustment work to combine different suppliers systems.
Seeing the references to Tesco feels odd. It's the biggest supermarket chain in the UK - hhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesco
Ananda
The Bunker Group
I do wonder on trade mark ownership can be a dispute, if someday their business operation ever come a cross. Right now the chances is very slim considering they are working in different industry and circle.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
I understand that to spread risks and because of budget limitations the navy has to accept different brands, but a chinese CMS, a Danish CMS and a Turkish CMS in one single class (KCR-60) is maybe a little bit too much.Thales Strengthens its Leading Position in the Indonesian Defence Industry
• At IndoDefence 2022, DEFEND ID and Thales have signed several agreements reaffirming their commitment to supporting the ongoing modernisation and digitalisation of the defence sector in Indonesia.www.thalesgroup.com
Reading on this clearly LEN involvement with Thales on Tacticos as CMS on various TNI-AL surface fleets still going strong presently and in future. So I just speculating in here that perhaps future CMS for Primary combatan will used Thales Tacticos stuff and Secondary combatan will used Havelsen Advent as CMS
Yes some upgrade program already used Terma C-Flex CMS, but still as TNI is not big on uniform, however at least either Terma, Thales, or Havelsan all are using NATO Euro based system. So either way they supposed can still talk to each other.
Even so call LEN indigenous CMS Mandhala is based on their work with Thales. Either way I do see Havelsan will have to work with LEN, and LEN already working with Thales for long time and seems also in future.
The working base environment with Thales involved quite big range of Electronics, Sensors Communications and Radars environment. So despite this new deal with Havelsan, I see this not as TNI-AL going to use more Havelsan stuff in future, but more on 'economics' consideration.
As deadlast already point out that Oto 40mm and L&T 40 mm using same ammo and based on same tech, thus seems economics that drive why some use Oto and other use L&T 40mm.
Hopefully this combo of Tacticos, C-Flex, Advent or even future iteration of LEN Mandhala still basically based on similar system. Thus like in 40mm, it is just matter of pricing consideration.
On that perhaps expectations on more expensive Thales stuff will going to be used on more expensive primary assets.
Add:
Some local forum and blogs call asside future KCR, also the OPV will use Advent. They also talk on Arrow 140 will use Advent. We'll see about that on the Frigate. I do still think the Frigate will still based on Thales stuff but the OPV and KCR either used Havelsan or Terma.
Here an interesting new video from Rheinmetall, it shows us the Oerlikon Millennium 35 mm in action together with the Oto Melara 76 mm gun on board the KRI R.E. Martadinata 331.
Edit...
Thales signed a contract with PT Len to undertake the refurbishment of the integrated mission systems for all four Diponegoro-class ships.
Delivered in 2007-2009, these ships will soon be refurbished with an Integrated Missions System including the TACTICOS Combat Management System, as well as the latest in software-driven radar technology able to combat the highest level of threats. So from which i understand, these SIGMA 9113 corvettes will keep their MW08, Lirod Mk.2 and other systems from Hollandse Signaalapparaten.
It seems to be similar with programme undertaken for the KRI Usman-Harun 359 Multi-Role Light Frigate/Korvet in 2020.
Thales to Upgrade Indonesia's Diponegoro-class Corvette CMS - Naval News
Thales will upgrade the combat management system (CMS) aboard the Indonesian Navy's (TNI AL) Diponegoro-class corvettes (SIGMA 9113 types).
www.navalnews.com
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I think going Turk what you are losing is not so much "proven" missiles or offensive weapons, but you would be loosing on the EM suite. An aspect that a lot overlook on the ships equipment.
If not wrong we (Italians) and the French we learned our lesson trough the Marine conflict between Israel and Egypt where in the 60s the ECMs played a central role.
If not wrong we (Italians) and the French we learned our lesson trough the Marine conflict between Israel and Egypt where in the 60s the ECMs played a central role.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
PT PAL Indonesia
PT PAL Indonesia Perkuat Kerjasama Strategis dengan Perusahaan Pertahanan asal Turki Surabaya (08/11) Pameran Indodefence 2022 menjadi momentum yang luarbiasa bagi perusahaan industri pertahanan...
www.facebook.com
Well seems PAL FB page confirming what MinDef pages put, that the Frigate Program they are running (Arrowhead 140 derivative), will use Havelsan CMS. Question will be on the rest of sensors and armament.
Anyway one of Indonesian defense enthusiats instagram call GID.NEWS (similar in name only with one of Russian defense online channel), put this online:
Online enthusiats claim this is the design on 143M Frigate that already got approval from Babcock as license owner and "consultant" on this project. The Banner has PAL printed on it at the bottom part. So seems it is something that officially coming from them.
For one thing this design seems more make sense then the model PAL shown in their booth during last Indo Defence. Hope this is the real design that already got Babcock approval. Since PAL already said to media the first steel cut ceremony will begin soon, lets see how the real design turn out.
The sensors seems shown Thales work tough, then again could be Turkish ones. Turkiye forum shown Havelsan design that shown similarities with Thales ones (at least from exterior).
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The Turks have been making sound progress in this field. There's a lot of indigenous R/D conducted and they've employed quite a bit of EW in Libya and Syria.
It played a critical role in a series of naval engagements fought between Syria and Israel in 1973. The Israelis were very successful in jamming/decoying the seeker heads of Syrian Styxs.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
I'm no naval designer, but if the graphic in that banner is the final design, then Babcock seems agree to lengthen mid ship section by adding a least one section. This I suspect increase the volume of mid section. Area that supposedly by design being call for multipurpose modules. Including sections for armaments.
Still if Babcock agree on inserting one additional module on mid section, I do suspect Babcock and PAL are making adjustment on other sections to compensate the balance.
No news yet on first cut steel ceremony yet which supposedly this month. Will see whether that 143m is final length. Other rumours call 140m length, and even that already some adjustment from basic 138m design.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
The design on this banner really looks like the original Iver Huitfeldt design, complete with HSA's SMART-L and APAR radars. Comparing with Turkish TF-2000 destroyer design, Havelsan's radar systems look different.PT PAL Indonesia
PT PAL Indonesia Perkuat Kerjasama Strategis dengan Perusahaan Pertahanan asal Turki Surabaya (08/11) Pameran Indodefence 2022 menjadi momentum yang luarbiasa bagi perusahaan industri pertahanan...
Well seems PAL FB page confirming what MinDef pages put, that the Frigate Program they are running (Arrowhead 140 derivative), will use Havelsan CMS. Question will be on the rest of sensors and armament.
Anyway one of Indonesian defense enthusiats instagram call GID.NEWS (similar in name only with one of Russian defense online channel), put this online:
View attachment 49867
Online enthusiats claim this is the design on 143M Frigate that already got approval from Babcock as license owner and "consultant" on this project. The Banner has PAL printed on it at the bottom part. So seems it is something that officially coming from them.
For one thing this design seems more make sense then the model PAL shown in their booth during last Indo Defence. Hope this is the real design that already got Babcock approval. Since PAL already said to media the first steel cut ceremony will begin soon, lets see how the real design turn out.
The sensors seems shown Thales work tough, then again could be Turkish ones. Turkiye forum shown Havelsan design that shown similarities with Thales ones (at least from exterior).
The mid section extension can indeed be used for the installation of more VLS-cells and/or the storage of the missiles. I expect it can also be used for the storage of more fuel or for prayer rooms.
Redlands18
Well-Known Member
Type 31 - Babcock International
The Babcock site has the Type 31 as 138.7x19.8x5.0m. you are going to get people who will round that down to 138x19x5m, some will give the exact figures, some will round it up to 139x20x5m and some will say nearly 140m long and nearly 20m wide all using the same figures and it all makes it sound like 2 different designs. There is, also 2 different lengths used for ships, length between perpendiculars, from the Rudder to where the ship cuts the water and overall length.