Indonesian Aero News

[Sandhi Yudha]

The current administration seems to be not interested in more second hand or new F-16s.
Maybe they are planning for a future of 42 Rafales, 16 F-15EXs and the F-16s and T-50s for the quantity after 2030.
Four types of fighterjets (no, the Super Tucano is not a jetfighter and the KF-X is an SBY-project) is not that bad for Indonesian standard.

What we don't need is a mixture of 20 Hawks, 30 F-16 from different Blocks, 16 T-50s, 16 Sukhois, 12 Mirage 2000s, 6 Rafales and 8 F-15EXs

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Fanboys on internet claim that our Sukhoi fleet is completely grounded, but this patrol of Su-30MK2s armed with R-27 missiles seems to be from a couple of days ago. (Can someone confirm this?)

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1584137425303269376

Recently some TNI-AU officials visited an ASTER 30-SAMP/T Air Defense System unit in Singapore.
The ASTER 30 - SAMP/T is a great ground based air defence system, and superior to the MICA-VL and NASAMS, but TNI-AU already has the NASAMS (without missiles).

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1583636556014764037

 

[Ananda]

but this patrol of Su-30MK2s armed with R-27 missiles seems to be from a couple of days ago. (Can someone confirm this?)

Seems this is part of Aerial exercise in Menado area :

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Usual military enthusiast FB already talk that. Thus seems it is genuine exercise event. Those who says the Flankers already grounded usually back to those rumours circulated by Western sales guys.

 

[r0m8470]

The ASTER 30 - SAMP/T is a great ground based air defence system, and superior to the MICA-VL and NASAMS, but TNI-AU already has the NASAMS (without missiles).

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1583636556014764037

Bold highlight is my own emphasis. So, there are only empty box launchers .... ? I get 'Fitted For But Not With' but that usually applies to certain part of a whole system. Like a frigate that has 'Fitted For But Not With' a CIWS, or SAM VLS crate, but a SAM system sans missiles? It's like buying Leopard tanks without ammo ..... At least with tanks, it could, in theory, ram the other guy.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Bold highlight is my own emphasis. So, there are only empty box launchers .... ? I get 'Fitted For But Not With' but that usually applies to certain part of a whole system. Like a frigate that has 'Fitted For But Not With' a CIWS, or SAM VLS crate, but a SAM system sans missiles? It's like buying Leopard tanks without ammo ..... At least with tanks, it could, in theory, ram the other guy.

Indonesia bought the NASAMS without the missiles. TNI-AU has not more than 36 AIM-120C-7 AMRAAMs, but these 36 also had to be shared with the 33 F-16s Indonesia has...

Indonesia - AIM-120C-7 Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAMs) | Defense Security Cooperation Agency

www.dsca.mil

So if every F-16 get 1 missile, which is already a pathetic low amount, then there are only 3 missiles left over for the NASAMS-launchers.

 

[Arji]

Indonesia bought the NASAMS without the missiles. TNI-AU has not more than 36 AIM-120C-7 AMRAAMs, but these 36 also had to be shared with the 33 F-16s Indonesia has...

Indonesia - AIM-120C-7 Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAMs) | Defense Security Cooperation Agency

www.dsca.mil

So if every F-16 get 1 missile, which is already a pathetic low amount, then there are only 3 missiles left over for the NASAMS-launchers.

That's 1 release from 2016, are you sure that's a reflection of TNI-AU's inventory now? Things like this usually get little media coverage (if any).

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

That's 1 release from 2016, are you sure that's a reflection of TNI-AU's inventory now? Things like this usually get little media coverage (if any).

That's true.
There were plans to order more, but i haven't heard yet about real contracts and deliveries after the first 36.

 

[Ananda]

Indonesia selects NASAMS air defence system - KONGSBERG

www.kongsberg.com

To be fair any deal on Nasams with Kongsberg will be seperate with the deal on Missile from Raytheon. TNI-AU already got inventory for AIM 120 C-7 and AIM 9X-2. Both are types of missiles that workable with Nasams. This is part why Nasams being choosen.

So far asside 2015 deal on AIM 9X-2 and 2017 deal on AIM 120 C-7 as Sandhi put, no other official announcement on further deals. Yes Indonesian officials can put down any further deal announcement to media, however ussualy it will be announce by DSCA. After all most of Indonesian media whether mainstream or online ones got information from DSCA first (on any US defense article deals with Indonesia).

So unless DSCA not saying anything yet, it is quite safe to see that outside 2015 and 2017 contract, no other batch yet so far for TNI-AU on both missiles types.

 

[Ananda]

Sometimes I forget on SIPRI arms transfer database. Their latest one on Indonesia shown 200 AIM 120C7 already in pipeline for NASAMS.



I'm lazy on downloading the data from SIPRI database, so I just put link on Indonesian defense blog that already uploaded it, early this years.

Transfer Persenjataan ke Indonesia 2021

14 Maret 2022 FREMM Bergamini class frigates (photo : ShipsHub) SIPRI kembali mengeluarkan laporan mengenai transfer persenjataan dunia, ber...

defense-studies.blogspot.com

So perhaps SIPRI already got other channels that shown not only what's in contract, but also in pipeline. Sometimes SIPRI only put expectations just like in data for 160 F-414 GE Turbofan, as it's talk on potential order from Indonesia on KFX/KF-21.

Thus it is not as accurate like more realiable data on US defense items export such as DCSA. So let's see how things turn out.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Sometimes I forget on SIPRI arms transfer database. Their latest one on Indonesia shown 200 AIM 120C7 already in pipeline for NASAMS.

View attachment 49792

I'm lazy on downloading the data from SIPRI database, so I just put link on Indonesian defense blog that already uploaded it, early this years.

Transfer Persenjataan ke Indonesia 2021

14 Maret 2022 FREMM Bergamini class frigates (photo : ShipsHub) SIPRI kembali mengeluarkan laporan mengenai transfer persenjataan dunia, ber...

defense-studies.blogspot.com

So perhaps SIPRI already got other channels that shown not only what's in contract, but also in pipeline. Sometimes SIPRI only put expectations just like in data for 160 F-414 GE Turbofan, as it's talk on potential order from Indonesia on KFX/KF-21.

Thus it is not as accurate like more realiable data on US defense items export such as DCSA. So let's see how things turn out.

Yes, if i read the article about SIPRI, the SIPRI report is full of incorrect information, and because of that totally unreliable.

Since when is the RM-70 Vampire assembled or built under licence in Indonesia?
And since when does Indonesia has the IAI Heron TP?


Another strange article...
|"Indonesia akan menghormati kontrak pembelian jet tempur Su-35 dengan Rusia. Kontrak pembelian pesawat ini akan tetap berlaku, Jakarta tidak memiliki rencana untuk membatalkannya."|
That's what the Indonesian ambassador in Russia is saying...
Like he was hibernating the last 4 years....


.https://www.airspace-review.com/2022/10/26/indonesia-akan-menghormati-kontrak-su-35-dengan-rusia/

 

[Ananda]

That's what the Indonesian ambassador in Russia is saying...
Like he was hibernating the last 4 years....

Off course he said that , he is doing his Job to maintain diplomatic relationship with Russia. Thus I do see this is part of Indonesian diplomatics talk.

He is right one thing tough, unlike Pinoy that officially allready stop the contract process on Mi-17. Indonesian MinDef has not say 'officially' stop the Su-35 process. What they are saying so far (at least the way I read it), hold or delay the process. The ones that saying Indonesia allready ditch Su-35 mostly media. TNI-AU Chief talk in media that Su-35 is too problematic to continue the process. However MinDef so far has not offcially call the process stop.

The development trend indicate strongly that Su-35 will not be continue. However Indonesia diplomatically not stoping trade with Russia, and not follow collective west wagon on isolating Russia. Perhaps this is part of path to maintain trade doors with Russia. Indication on getting Russian Hydrocarbon is strong now. Especially with USD trend as it is now.

 

[Ananda]

Prabowo Ingin Bayar Pembelian Jet Tempur F-15EX secara Bertahap

Menurut Prabowo, pembayaran secara bertahap mesti dilakukan karena rencana pengadaan F-15EX sangat bergantung pada kemampuan anggaran negara.

amp.kompas.com

Prabowo talk in MinDef toward Rafale and F-15 procurement. In this he's stating still in negotiation for F-15 and on advance talk for Rafale. I believe on Rafale he's talking further batch from the first six. He's confirming the talk now on financing negotiation stages.

In actual reality it is not a new thing as even from Soeharto era (heck even from Soekarno era), defense items procurement are financing through credit line facilities. Indonesia actualy close to never pay procurement in one payment scheme. It is practically always on term payment. As this is preference for many 'finance' people in many government on conducting procurement. It is easier to control term payment in stages for budget allocation on multi years arrangement.

Thus sometimes I chuckle if reading several Indonesian blogs or online forums on some 'kiddos' talk as this is a new thing. It is practically what being used for decades on defense items procurement. Even nearly all government capital goods procurement, especialy large from overseas sources. Always use credit financing lines.

Anyway, this is basically close this term procurement program. Now more talk on finishing the money trails on financing. Off course this does not meant guarantee contract. It is means the financing stages already on advance negotiations stages. Politically it is already set in the motion.

 

[Ananda]

N51008 | Lockheed Martin C-130J-30 Hercules | Indonesia - Air Force | Carlos Barcelo | JetPhotos

LAC5951 arriving into Dobbins after his B1 flight. First C-130J-30 out of five for the Indonesian Air Force.. N51008. Lockheed Martin C-130J-30 Hercules. JetPhotos.com is the biggest database of aviation photographs with over 6 million screened photos online!

www.jetphotos.com

Indonesian 1st C-130J on trial flight. So far the contract still limited to the 5 plane on 1st batch. There's rumours on either getting 2nd batch on newly build or used ones (potentially ex RAF) as Bangladesh done.

So far money trails only on refurbishment of existing 10 C-130H. Those C-130H (either TNI-AU existing inventory plus ex RAAF) project to fill 2 sq. The 3rd ones going to be fill by C-130J. This's where the rumours talking on 2nd hand C-130J to make full sq with newly build ones.

 

[Ananda]

Breaking: Infoglobal hadirkan mock-up jet tempur generasi 4,5 di Indo Defence 2022

AIRSPACE REVIEW (airspace-review.com) – Ada kejutan, bila benar, informasi beredar menyebut PT Infoglobal Teknologi Semesta (Infoglobal) akan

www.airspace-review.com

This what I'm afraid off. This administration move toward anything "instant" creating every local 'defense' industry try to shown 'ambitious' projects, without really knows who actually goung to build and cover the basic development stages.

Like I said few times in the past on this thread or other Indonesian related threads, Soeharto era defense industry blue prints, actually shown more 'structure' development plan. Habibies despites my reservation on his plan, do knows how to structure development progress step by step.

What I'm worries seems shown indication that present planing now will resulted on patch works projects trying to shown to the publics 'instant' projects, which in the end only wasting time and resources.

This because political needs to shown result, due to political years ahead prior from 2024 election. Indonesian has term of 'pencitraan' or image building. Thus instead back to the basics on building strong foundations, what happen now more on project of opportunities.

Back to this 'mock up' prepared by one local companies that specialise on Avionics. They do have base on avionics development. Some of their avionics already work toward Hawk 200, DI turboprops or before they shown projects on working for C-130H refurbishment projects as glass cockpits project.

However they don't have back ground for complete aircraft design, now they are shown 4.5 gen Fighter mock up ? This company build by some ex IPTN engineers, those engineers that're products of Habibie era. What I'm afraid is the current administration drives to get something instant, take any designs come out from local design house, vendors without structure development stages.

How this is going to be finance as even paying the overall dues on 20% of KFX project still being delayed ? Now this being shown on Indodefense 2022 ? Previous Indodefense already become show case for some one off prototypes projects from several local industries. I do afraid this year Indodefense will come out more of this prototypes, that good on 'image' building talks especially close to ellections. However not on building basic structural foundations for Local Defense Industries.

It is what we (financial proffesionals) afraid resulted on patch works on defense industry development stages. MinDef already giving invitations to financial institutions people to come toward IndoDefense. Hoping Financial institutions will come to support projects of those local defense industries.

However from what I gather many reluctants even to come (at least the senior exec level), thus relegates the invitations toward more junior level. Just to shown faces. No one wants to give commitments on financing 'prototypes' projects.

Add:
Well my collegues that already senior exec levels from SOE Financial Institutions, will come. They have too, if they want to keep their possitions . Well let them try to fend off 'push' on financing those 'unproven' local defense industries projects.

 

[Ananda]

Seems on logistical point, they are choosing area concentration approach. Like Flankers concentrate on Makasar AB. Thus the logistics to support Flankers will handle by that AB. F-16 will be on Madiun and Pekanbaru, in which they are concentrating the logistics support for F-16 on those AB. Heard rumours on Hawk 200 will be concentrate from 2 to 1 sq operation in Pekanbaru, which then handle all support. Perhaps this Mirage 2K then will be concentrate in Pontianak AB (replacing that one Hawk sq), thus that AB also handle all logistics and support of that type.

This is what I post more close to two weeks ago, on speculations on TNI-AU choose area concentration logistics approach. As they are seems moving to concentrate types of assets on certain AB.

This Indonesian Defense Youtube channel doing interview with TNI-AU National Air Command. The video talk more on reorganizing Air Command to be more centralized. Nothing new, as this's already been planning before for some time.

From 05:30 the Air Command chief talk on centralising Logistics on each types on certain AB. Thus minimising logistics foot prints. This inline with what I have speculate on my previous posts before.

Like I said, this's not optimise solutions, but TNI-AU has no choice to do that following procurement policy that are more derive on Political agenda rather operational need such as logistics and maintenance optimising.

I speculate before on this method as this's not new on any commercial fleet maintenance, if you are operating various types of vehicles in your fleet. This's part on reducing logistics foot prints (thus costs), but in the consequences of less flexibility of your fleet deployment. Practically your types of assets will be more or less (in daily operation) confined on certain area of operation.

Not the most ideal choices, but necessary choices if the procurement decision maker still choose on diverse operational assets.

Add the video on Infoglobal that avionics company which in previous posts shown full scale mock up model on Fighter within next week Indodefense. Just to shown question on how realistic that project will be. Being initiate by company that track record so far solely on avionics, and not Air Frames design.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

That whole jetfighter mock-up i wouldn't take serious.
An aircraft manufacturer with decades of experience like IPTN isn't able to design a 4th-generation jetfighter, and now Infoglobal designs a 5th generation stealth fighter from scratch!?

Even larger and older companies like Sagem and Rockwell-Collins do not dare to fantasize about it.
With a current administration like we have now, the administration of cancellations (SIGMA 10514, KF-X, 2nd batch Type 209/1400, Elang Hitam and many other programs/plans) i don't expect anything.
Like you already said, this is just to please the fanboys and mass media and for image building for the next elections.
Nothing more.

 

[Ananda]

Like you already said, this is just to please the fanboys and mass media and for image building for the next elections

Remember this, the once tounted in online blogs and media as definite replacement for Marines BTR50. Being shown in couple Indodefence already. Then lost momentum and being reduce to just another 'prototypes' being circulated for TNI RnD program.

That's what I'm afraid off for the local defense Industry development. Their efforts are moving from building one mockup to one prototypes then just lost momentum without further progress. This is not how you are building foundation for viable Defense Industry.

No wonder why the call for Soeharto New Order nostalgia gaining momentum from time to time. He's corrupt, but the 'reformasi' regimes after him even give more corrupt environment. In the mean time his more structure development stages give more credentials on better planning.

Some onlines milenials begin to understand the infrastructures programs that current administration proudly call as the best Infrastructure program, actually many follow blue prints from Soeharto New Order. If no 1998 financial crisis and his downfall, all current infrastructure already build by early 2000 thus close to two decades ago. So does this plan of Defense Industry projects.

All this with more realistic structural step by step stages program. Not patch up opportunities programs as right now seems being pursue.

Viable Industry development need strong investment and financing support from capital market and financial intermediaries. How we in financial industry going to have confidence for Indonesian Defense Industry future, if the foundations being build on patch up opportunistics programs nature ? Let's see if current Indodefense can shown more realistics foundations building stages for local industries. Personally I don't have much confidences on this, asside on couple more matures segment like Ship Building, or land vehicles programs. This because those industries basically have more mature civilian commercial foundations already.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Breaking: Infoglobal hadirkan mock-up jet tempur generasi 4,5 di Indo Defence 2022

AIRSPACE REVIEW (airspace-review.com) – Ada kejutan, bila benar, informasi beredar menyebut PT Infoglobal Teknologi Semesta (Infoglobal) akan

www.airspace-review.com

This what I'm afraid off. This administration move toward anything "instant" creating every local 'defense' industry try to shown 'ambitious' projects, without really knows who actually goung to build and cover the basic development stages.

Like I said few times in the past on this thread or other Indonesian related threads, Soeharto era defense industry blue prints, actually shown more 'structure' development plan. Habibies despites my reservation on his plan, do knows how to structure development progress step by step.

What I'm worries seems shown indication that present planing now will resulted on patch works projects trying to shown to the publics 'instant' projects, which in the end only wasting time and resources.

This because political needs to shown result, due to political years ahead prior from 2024 election. Indonesian has term of 'pencitraan' or image building. Thus instead back to the basics on building strong foundations, what happen now more on project of opportunities.

Back to this 'mock up' prepared by one local companies that specialise on Avionics. They do have base on avionics development. Some of their avionics already work toward Hawk 200, DI turboprops or before they shown projects on working for C-130H refurbishment projects as glass cockpits project.

However they don't have back ground for complete aircraft design, now they are shown 4.5 gen Fighter mock up ? This company build by some ex IPTN engineers, those engineers that're products of Habibie era. What I'm afraid is the current administration drives to get something instant, take any designs come out from local design house, vendors without structure development stages.

How this is going to be finance as even paying the overall dues on 20% of KFX project still being delayed ? Now this being shown on Indodefense 2022 ? Previous Indodefense already become show case for some one off prototypes projects from several local industries. I do afraid this year Indodefense will come out more of this prototypes, that good on 'image' building talks especially close to ellections. However not on building basic structural foundations for Local Defense Industries.

It is what we (financial proffesionals) afraid resulted on patch works on defense industry development stages. MinDef already giving invitations to financial institutions people to come toward IndoDefense. Hoping Financial institutions will come to support projects of those local defense industries.

However from what I gather many reluctants even to come (at least the senior exec level), thus relegates the invitations toward more junior level. Just to shown faces. No one wants to give commitments on financing 'prototypes' projects.

Add:
Well my collegues that already senior exec levels from SOE Financial Institutions, will come. They have too, if they want to keep their possitions . Well let them try to fend off 'push' on financing those 'unproven' local defense industries projects.

Almost as hightech and advanced as the Iranian Qaher-313 7th generation stealth fighter.
We are just two steps away from Ghana's futuristic weaponsystems.



Btw...an A330MRTT and two Rafales already arrived in Jakarta for Indo Defence 2022.

Rafale, A330 MRTT, dan Black Hawk sudah mendarat di Lanud Halim: Indo Defence 2022

AIRSPACE REVIEW (airspace-review.com) – Pameran pertahanan skala internasional, Indo Defence 2022 Expo & Forum yang akan digelar di Jakarta

www.airspace-review.com

More Indo Defence 2022 news:
What we can expect is
- A contract between the Ministry of Defence and IPTN for a CN235 transport aircraft.
- Contracts between IPTN and some companies for supplies/support for the production of the N219. (Yes this program is moving extreme slowly)
- A contract for a new type of propellers for the NC212i.
- Contracts for the upgrade of the C-130 fleet.

Ini dia daftar penandatanganan kontrak PTDI di Indo Defence 2022

AIRSPACE REVIEW (airspace-review.com) - PT Dirgantara Indonesia (PTDI) bersama anak perusahaan PT Nusantara Turbin dan Propulsi (NTP) ikut

www.airspace-review.com

Edit: Update
Here a link to the brochure of this fantasy stealth jet fighter. Looking to the dimensions, its indeed an aircraft in the same class as the Qaher-313....

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1587225354615152640

 

[Ananda]

Looking to the dimensions, its indeed an aircraft in the same class as the Qaher-313....

Some of the "enthusiasts" try to defend the project as not too 'ambitious' and doable. They claim the compact dimensions means the project is for LCA/LIFT catagory. Thus 'theoritically' still doable within Indonesian resources. More tech can be sources off the shelf, as they claim.

Well theoritically it can, the question is still need long term big Investment. Thus means long term big commitment. Something that in question as the performance of aviation industry in Indonesia practically still not give confidence able to absorb big investment right away.

Those fan boys still not get that building industry need stromg foundations. Foundations that come from investment in capacities and human recources. Without that the Industrial investment will not produce tangible sustainable results, as practically they can not absorb the 'tech' development. Buying and source off the self tech also need good foundations as Korean KAI already shown on KFX program. Moreover ROK has much more numerous companies that can support aviations project of KAI domestically.

Like many Indonesians, they are thinking on 'instant' projects. Can more instant projects doable? In theory it can only with huge 'fund' available as UAE shown. However it is also means for first one to two decades it has also relied on foreign sources including expats. Which is basically what Habbie done before. Behind the scene there are 'legions' of expats engineers and designers when IPTN launch CN-235 (with CASA) and N-250. Something that not shown in public for political images consideration.

In the end this required level of Political commitment that drive Financial commitment for long term projects. Ready for investments that will not give positive return for some time. That's are quite difficult to get in Indonesia, as KFX/IFX projects shown.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Airbus: Indonesia pesan 2 A400M plus opsi tambahan 4 unit

AIRSPACE REVIEW (airspace-review.com) – Indonesia telah memesan dua unit pesawat angkut A400M dalam konfigurasi multiperan tanker dan angkut.

www.airspace-review.com

LoI.... that's one step before MoU and two steps before the actual contract, right?

Text editing in progress.