The Russian-Ukrainian War Thread

phreeky · Mar 12, 2022

Feanor said:
It's an odd statement to make. There is one side in this conflict with self-professed right wing extremists in its ranks, and another side that uses the latin letter Z.

Most people will be associating the Z with the Russian invasion of Ukraine and drawing parallels with military behaviour from the Nazis (as opposed to the attack of Jewish people). The Russians are the aggressors invading a sovereign state and are now shelling cities, so it's no surprise. Artillery and dumb bombs are in use, these are not precision weapons that should be used in 2022 when civilians are anywhere in the vicinity.

Putin's use of the term "Denazification" in his propaganda to falsely justify this invasion is what has caused the references to be made.

I have Russian friends whom are completely against this invasion and I dearly hope they don't get targeted by such things.

cdxbow · Mar 12, 2022

Russia's friends helping stir things up or unrelated? Rockets fired towards US consulate in northern Iraq city of Erbil: officials | Iraq | The Guardian

T.C.P · Mar 12, 2022

cdxbow said:
Russia's friends helping stir things up or unrelated? Rockets fired towards US consulate in northern Iraq city of Erbil: officials | Iraq | The Guardian

Probably as a revenge for the damascus strike that killed 2 high level irgc officials.

Its really cute, Israel and America do real damage to the IRGC and then allow Iran to launch a few missiles at empty buildings to assuage their egos.

Feanor · Mar 12, 2022

cdxbow said:
Feanor, the visual similarity is staggering to me. Others have commented on this. Coincidence? Perhaps toxic ultranationalism always comes up with similar visual memes. Perhaps I'm a bit sensitive to it because one branch of my family are Polish Jews.

The second is Mr Putin's Russia now ticks most of the boxes for something very similar to mid-last century Fascism. Which is ironic given Mr Putin calls to rid Ukraine of fascists. I think this is one of the reasons Western Europe have reacted with unity and purpose, they recognise what Putin's Russia is becoming and are reacting to it at a visceral level.

I don't know what to tell you. I suspect this is more imagined then real. The factors that existed in 1930s Germany aren't there in Russia. Russia isn't ultranationalist from an ideological standpoint. Russia explicitly positions itself as multinational, and practices autonomy for various ethnic minorities. Just look at the Chechen fighters in Ukraine. Russia is practicing traditional imperialist policy abroad, be it Syria, Ukraine, or Georgia. For all the attempts to cobble together a cohesive national ideology, Putin and Co. have failed. They tried to lean on the church but it's too corrupt and unconvincing. They tried to build a youth group to counter-protest, but it didn't really take off (officially disbanded in 2019). There was talk of a sovereign democracy but this didn't seem to mean much. There were post-Soviet integration schemes, but they were based on convergent interests with other post-Soviet elites, not ideology. There isn't a militant organization of pro-Putin brownshirts, there isn't a racial or even ultra-nationalist ideology. There's the conception of the Russian World, but it hasn't really caught on from what I can tell. Basically I don't see what boxes it ticks that would match with national socialism or even just fascism.

EDIT: And while we're at it, the Z isn't even an ideological symbol. It's a tactical military marking, one of 3, the others being a white circle, and a white V. The Z seems to get the most attention because the southern grouping has gained the most ground, and because the rebel forces are also using it. But if anything the closest thing to an ideological symbol Putin has dug up is the St. George ribbon.

phreeky · Mar 13, 2022

Feanor said:
EDIT: And while we're at it, the Z isn't even an ideological symbol. It's a tactical military marking, one of 3, the others being a white circle, and a white V.

The Swastika has origins also completely unrelated to what it became to represent. Like it or not, the white Z has become associated with the Russians actions in this war.

More on-topic, here is an interesting write-up on some of the progress and Russian difficulties: Putin’s Worsening Problems

It certainly seems that troop motivation, or lack thereof, has slowed progress and might well put a very tight time limit on how long this can go on for.

Feanor · Mar 13, 2022

Update.

Around Kiev.

A Ukrainian command post near Kiev destroyed by a Krasnopol' strike.

Zvezdanews

⚡️МО РФ показало уничтожение замаскированного пункта управления ВСУ в Киевской области высокоточным снарядом «Краснополь»

t.me

Russian forces near Kiev.

Kramatorsk got hit by strikes. Kramatorsk-Slavyansk were one of the starting spots of the DNR rebellion. Slavyansk is the city that Strelkov (Girkin) held against Ukrainian forces buying time for the DNR to organize some sort of government and fighting force. Kramatorsk is the location where ~a platoon of Ukrainian paratroopers deserted with their armored vehicles to the rebels, giving the rebels their first "artillery", a 2S9 Nona-S 120mm SP mortar.

Военкор Андрей Камыжикин

Видео из Краматорска Очередные авиаудары нанесены в район Меловой горы. Похоже что скоро начнется наземная фаза операции по освобождению Славянска, Краматорска и Дружковки. @anna_news @diza_donbass

t.me

Военкор Андрей Камыжикин

Видео из Дружковки Наши источники в Дружковке, Красногорке и Краматорске подтверждают нанесение нескольких авиаударов по аэропорту в Краматорске. @anna_news @diza_donbass

t.me

VK.com | VK

vk.com

Russian jets have been hitting targets near Krasniy Liman, north-east of the Slavyansk-Kramatorsk urban spread.

Военкор Андрей Камыжикин

Видео из Красного Лимана По словам местных жителей, ночью и утром ВКС РФ очень активно работали. в результате пожгли много техники украм. @anna_news @diza_donbass

t.me

It looks like one of the targets was a Ukrainian element moving on the bridge between Krasniy Liman and Slavyansk. Two trucks were taken out.

Военкор Андрей Камыжикин

Мост из Славянска в Красный Лиман Судя по видео, одной из целей недавних ударов ВКС РФ стала колонна украинской техники. @anna_news @diza_donbass

t.me

Karachun mountain near Slavyansk also got hit by airstrikes. During the '14 siege of Slavyansk this was the location of Ukrainian artillery that shelled the city.

ANNA NEWS

Гора Карачун в эти минуты Сообщают что пару минут назад по горе Корачун в Славянске вновь был нанесен удар авиацией ВКС РФ. В результате у террористов что-то хорошо задымыло на позициях. @anna_news @diza_donbass

t.me

Colonelcassad

Поврежденные грузовики ВСУ на мосту в Красном Лимане. Утренние удары ВКС РФ по Славянско-Краматорской агломерации.

t.me

The Svyatovorskaya Lavra monastery complex got hit, near Slavyansk. Allegedly there were Ukrainian air defense positions nearby that were targeted.

Рыбарь

Украинские СМИ и Telegram-каналы публикуют кадры разрушенной Святогорской лавры и винят во всем «российских агрессоров, для которых нет ничего святого». Есть только маленький нюанс: между Святогорском и Татьяновкой располагался позиционный район украинских зенитно-ракетных комплексов. Именно...

t.me

Rebel artillery firing.

Ратник 2-го раZряда

Рубрика "утренний пакет". Денацификация в Донбассе идёт полным ходом.

t.me

The West.

The Yavorov training ground in western Ukraine got hit.

ANNA NEWS

Российская авиация нанесла удар по Яворовскому полигону в Львовской области. Примечательно, что там дислоцировались военные инструкторы из стран НАТО, занимавшиеся боевой подготовкой вооруженных сил Украины. @anna_news

t.me

Военкор Котенок

Утром 13.03.22 г. сообщили об ударе по Яворовскому полигону во Львовской области. Эта колоссальная система стрельбищ, танковых директрис, учебных центров и т.д., доставшаяся Украине после развала СССР. До границы с Польшей — 25 км. Полигон — крупнейший в Европе, позволяет моделировать...

t.me

VK.com | VK

vk.com

Misc.

A Ukrainian POW surrendered without firing a shot, says he enlisted for the money.

Операция Z: Военкоры Русской Весны

Украинский солдат по прозвищу "Боб Марли" пришел в ряды армии ради денег Об этом боец рассказал после того, как сложил оружие. "Я добровольно сложил оружие, четыре магазина, в которых было 120 патронов. Я не сделал ни одного выстрела в сторону", - передает слова мужчины телеканал "Звезда"...

t.me

Another packet of US military aid for Ukraine is coming, 200 mln USD, with a focus on MANPADS and ATGMs.

Новый пакет американской военной помощи Украине

12 марта 2022 года президент США Джо Байден направил Государственному департаменту США меморандум о выделении Украине дополнительной военной помощи на сумму 200 млн долл. Согласно сообщениям американских СМИ, в данный пакет военной помощи Украине войдут противотанковые и зенитные средства,…

bmpd.livejournal.com

NLAWs getting handed out in Ukraine, location and context unclear.

Рыбарь

ССО ВСУ раздают ПТРК NLAW бойцам территориальной обороны. Ещё в январе военнослужащих ВСУ централизованно обучали использованию ПТРК NLAW британские инструкторы. Минимальная продолжительность интенсивных курсов с проведением практических стрельб на полигонах тогда составляла четыре дня. Обучали...

t.me

Feanor · Mar 13, 2022

phreeky said:
The Swastika has origins also completely unrelated to what it became to represent. Like it or not, the white Z has become associated with the Russians actions in this war.

If you're referring to it being the sun symbol, the comparison really doesn't hold. The Nazis used the swastika as a distinct ideological and political symbol. The Z could morph into that but only if it gets used that way by Russian authorities or political movements. Of course there's the question of perception and reality. In reality the Z has nothing to do with Russian ideology, but if the public perception among the public in the west comes to interpret it that way, then it's easy to see how people see it's similarity to a swastika. A similarity that is thoroughly imaginary, but staggering nonetheless. Again the real symbol Russia and Putin are tapping is the St. George's ribbon.

More on-topic, here is an interesting write-up on some of the progress and Russian difficulties: Putin’s Worsening Problems

It certainly seems that troop motivation, or lack thereof, has slowed progress and might well put a very tight time limit on how long this can go on for.

Is there any sign that there are troop motivation issues? The article very much glosses the particulars and makes vague claims. It's possible that this is true. But it's just as possible that it's dead wrong. A few issues I've noted; claims that 1/3rd of Russian units are destroyed and have to be reformed, claims that all the Russian vehicles abandoned means casualties or troops wandering the countryside. It's far likelier that the crews/passengers are simply picked up by other vehicles in their units, and they keep moving. Russia is indeed on a timeline but in my opinion not primarily for the reasons listed here. The real issues are that the longer Ukraine can fight the more western aid it will get and the more time it will have to mobilize and train additional personnel. Also the longer this goes on, the more severe the damage to Russia's economy.

Ananda · Mar 13, 2022

phreeky said:
certainly seems that troop motivation, or lack thereof, has slowed progress and might well put a very tight time limit on how long this can go on for.

It is interesting to see how some western media cook up some analyst on Russian progress or lack off base only on the situation around Kyiv. Talking Russian demoralizing and lack of coordination, High morale in Ukrainian defenders, while in East and South, Russian making good progress.

Ukraine in maps: Tracking the war with Russia

As Russian forces make slow progress in eastern Ukraine, Ukraine's military stages a surprise cross-border attack.

www.bbc.com

Even BBC acknowledge that. Each media going to focus on situation that more reflect their agenda. However some western media knowingly only focusing on certain Kyiv and North as proof Russian demoralizing, and incompetence through out the War, clearly picking news.

Is Ukrainian troops in the South or East are below standard ? is Ukrainian troops in the South and East demoralizing ? Off course not. Ukrainian troops in the East are their more season troops. They are the ones who continue facing conflict this past eight years.

I don't know whether Russian deliberately slowing their progress in North and around Kyiv, having real difficulty, or they are doing something else on their strategic game. However by all the movement so far, South and East is seems their main target. In that area they are making considerable gain.

Focus on Kyiv deadlock obscures Russia’s success in south Ukraine

Analysis: Advance of Putin’s war machine through key southern cities likely to have major impact on war’s outcome

www.theguardian.com

Put it this way, Ukrainian Navy will not going to scuttle their only Frigates and their pride flag ship, if they don't see their situation in South facing larger problem. Russia just like Feanor put and I also already put what market prediction, has only limited timelines to conduct their operation.

So far they're making reasonable progress in East and South, that many analyst in market (not Media) predicted that's Russia main goals.

Rock the kasbah · Mar 13, 2022

Feanor said:
I don't know what to tell you. I suspect this is more imagined then real. The factors that existed in 1930s Germany aren't there in Russia. Russia isn't ultranationalist from an ideological standpoint. Russia explicitly positions itself as multinational, and practices autonomy for various ethnic minorities. Just look at the Chechen fighters in Ukraine. Russia is practicing traditional imperialist policy abroad, be it Syria, Ukraine, or Georgia. For all the attempts to cobble together a cohesive national ideology, Putin and Co. have failed. They tried to lean on the church but it's too corrupt and unconvincing. They tried to build a youth group to counter-protest, but it didn't really take off (officially disbanded in 2019). There was talk of a sovereign democracy but this didn't seem to mean much. There were post-Soviet integration schemes, but they were based on convergent interests with other post-Soviet elites, not ideology. There isn't a militant organization of pro-Putin brownshirts, there isn't a racial or even ultra-nationalist ideology. There's the conception of the Russian World, but it hasn't really caught on from what I can tell. Basically I don't see what boxes it ticks that would match with national socialism or even just fascism.

EDIT: And while we're at it, the Z isn't even an ideological symbol. It's a tactical military marking, one of 3, the others being a white circle, and a white V. The Z seems to get the most attention because the southern grouping has gained the most ground, and because the rebel forces are also using it. But if anything the closest thing to an ideological symbol Putin has dug up is the St. George ribbon.

I have spent many a good holiday surfing in Indonesia, swastika everywhere

Ananda · Mar 13, 2022

Rock the kasbah said:
have spent many a good holiday surfing in Indonesia, swastika everywhere

Yes Balinese Hindu (which I believe where you spend most of your surfing), really adores Hitler

. When I talk with Balinese Hindu friend, he once told stories when many Western tourists, ask why Balinese support Nazi.

My friend say he's sometimes tired to explain those Western Tourists, that Swastika predates Hitler and Nazi thousands of years.

Sandhi Yudha · Mar 13, 2022

cdxbow said:
Article from Wired about the failure of the Russian disinformation campaign. The Spectacular Collapse of Putin’s Disinformation Machinery | WIRED I've got to say I really enjoyed looking the 'useful idiots' in the west squirming.

After reading this it got me thinking, this thread is misnamed and misleading. Is it Russian disinformation?
The thread needs to be named accurately something like 'The Russian Invasion of the Ukraine' or the 'Russian Ukraine War', anything less is misleading.

The name "Russian-Ukraine War Thread" fits better, but this thread is started almost a year ago, so its a little bit weird to call this suddenly as "misleading" and brand this as "Russian disinformation ".

ngatimozart · Mar 13, 2022

The Ukrainian National Agency for Prevention Against Corruption has made a ruling that Ukrainian citizens do not have to declare any Russian tanks or equipment that they capture. No need to declare captured Russian tanks, other equipment of invaders as income – NAPC (interfax.com.ua) So if the Ukrainian farmers can figure out a way of towing Russian warships then they are free to do so.

Ukrainian Tractor preying on VMF FFG.jpg

Source: Facebook.

GermanHerman · Mar 13, 2022

The White Z has clearly transformed into smth different then just a tactical sign.

It was clear when we first got pictures of russian troops in Syria with the Z followed up by pictures of civilians like Iwan Kuljak and others publicly showing it off.

The Z has become the symbol of the russian war effort, it's a kind of branding and it is very effective. In that way it is not surprising that people compare the Z to the swastika, it has the same function.

Symbols are powerfull tools of Propaganda as they give the masses something to Rally behind without beeing to specific. Anyone can project his own cause/ beliefe on to it.

I think this is maybe one aspect of the propaganda effort that is somewhat overlooked.

STURM · Mar 13, 2022

Russia says it could target Western arms supplies to Ukraine

‘Pumping of weapons from a number of countries … turns these convoys into legitimate targets’, Russian deputy FM says.

www.aljazeera.com

This,is something that will be of major concern to Ukraine's backers. In the past the Soviets also targeted Afghan caravans moving in supplies from Pakistan.

Steinmetz · Mar 13, 2022

STURM said:
Russia says it could target Western arms supplies to Ukraine

‘Pumping of weapons from a number of countries … turns these convoys into legitimate targets’, Russian deputy FM says.

www.aljazeera.com

This,is something that will be of major concern to Ukraine's backers. In the past the Soviets also targeted Afghan caravans moving in supplies from Pakistan.

Apparently, they sent a message today by striking Yavoriv base, which is located near the Polish border. Apparently the base was used as a training center in the past. There are also unconfirmed reports that International fighters have gathered there.

Russia strikes Ukrainian military base, killing more than 30 people

One thing I've been wondering is if Russia has begun at least a partial mobilization behind the scenes, it's clear to me they're gonna need a lot more manpower. I can't imagine them not doing a partial or full mobilization at this point. I don't think there'll be a political settlement of any kind unless there is more success translated on the battlefield. Igor Strelkov, whom has been calling for direct intervention into Ukraine for a long time, has been critical of the planning and performance in general. He has reiterated the point of the need of a full or partial mobilization over and over again in order for there to be a successful outcome to this war.

Коротко по ситуации на фронте:.. | Стрелков Игорь Иванович | VK

STURM · Mar 13, 2022

It's a not so subtle message to NATO and a reminder that every square metre of Ukraunian soli is within reach. I'm assuming that the bulk of stuff coming into the Ukraine is flown iby chartered aircraft and not by road?

A couple of days ago an Indian missile hit Pakistani soli; a genuine cockup on the part of the Indians but a highly dangerous one. What would NATO's reaction be if a Russian missile hit a field 15 kilometres away from the Ukrainian border and wounded a Polish farmer? How would it react if a chartered flight airlifting Javelin rounds was shot down by a Russian Su-27 over Ukrainian air space?

In the last years of the Soviet/Afghan war a massive arms dump across the border in Pakistan blew up. Was said to have been the work of Soviet operatives. I can imagine that the Russians are already looking at ways to disrupt the flow of arms and supplies into the Ukraine.

Ananda · Mar 13, 2022

If we see what happen during Sovyet Afghanistan War, some accident in the border can happen. On the other hand the terain in Afghanistan border are much more challanging, while Ukraine-Poland border is much more flat and recognisable.

Base on USSR doing in intercepting US armament and supply toward Mujahadin, Russian seems going to wait until the supply entering Ukraine. Again the terain is much more easier to indentified then Afghan-Pak border.

wild_Willie2 · Mar 13, 2022

Weapon shipments for Ukraine are flown to bases near the border and then trucked into Ukraine.
Things could escalate very quickly if Russia interferes with Ukraine weapons shipments inside of a NATO country.

Supplies

Twain · Mar 13, 2022

Feanor said:
Is there any sign that there are troop motivation issues? The article very much glosses the particulars and makes vague claims. It's possible that this is true. But it's just as possible that it's dead wrong.

quite a few actually

https://news.google.com/search?q=russian%20morale&hl=en-US&gl=US&ceid=US%3Aen

Many reports of morale problems at the above link

The U.S. is seeing evidence of “fairly slow and stodgy progress” and morale issues among Russian forces on the ground in Ukraine – and even some cases of troops surrendering “sometimes without a fight.”

https://www.usnews.com/news/world-report/articles/2022-03-01/u-s-sees-evidence-of-morale-problems-among-russian-troops-in-ukraine

Russia’s attack on Ukraine is being weakened by poor communications and low morale among undertrained soldiers given rations that are seven years out of date, claim defence intelligence experts.

Putin's troops given food 7 years out of date as low morale and military flaws hinder invasion

'I think they mistakenly thought they get could get to Kyiv very quickly and take the government out, cut the head of the snake type operation. As soon as that started to fail they had no plan b'

inews.co.uk

"There were some messages released by the Ukrainian military texting with their parents, and they were saying things like 'Mum, I can't believe we are actually killing civilians here'. So that is something many of them are not prepared to do."

Russia's soldiers ‘giving up’ and abandoning Putin’s war

RUSSIA's soldiers are suffering from low morale and some are even "giving up" on Vladimir Putin's war in Ukraine, a Ukrainian MP tells Express.co.uk.

www.express.co.uk

GermanHerman · Mar 13, 2022

Neither the US nor the Ukraine are actualy trustworthy sources for these kind of information in my opinion.

Especially Ukraine has shown to be extremly unreliable.

So If these claims cant be backed up by video I wouldnt take them at face value although I dont doubt that moral is somewhat low.

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