Royal New Zealand Air Force

[ASSAIL]

The same media release says they plan to spend $21 million to upgrade the NH90 with improved communications and identification systems.

I think this fact sheet is new too, with a render of the C-130 in RNZAF spec: https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/6937269/FAMC-A3-28-May-GOV.pdf

“Transporting government Personnel and VIPs to trade and political forums”.
sounds like they have no further need to replace the 757s
Can’t wait to see Jacinta and co tiptoeing off to the UN in a Herc.

 

[Redlands18]

also at the bottom of the press release and tying in with the NZDF discussion:

"Work is expected to be initiated in 2021 on the second phase of upgrading New Zealand’s air mobility capability, when options will be considered for replacing the two Boeing 757 aircraft operated by the Royal New Zealand Air Force.

These are expected to reach their end of service life towards the end of this decade."

The use of 'initiated' is a bit weird - what the hell have they been doing for the last 4ish years then? unless that's when the decision on what will replace them will be made?

Probably is when they will release an RFI to perspective suppliers. It could actually be a very good time for Air Forces to pick up some cheap 2nd hand Airliners but the NZG would need to bring the project forward to make full use of the opportunities that are likely to be out there.
Good to see the old Hercs finally being replaced, not a bad result 5xC-130J-30s will be a big leap in capability

 

[RetirementIsGood]

Probably is when they will release an RFI to perspective suppliers. It could actually be a very good time for Air Forces to pick up some cheap 2nd hand Airliners but the NZG would need to bring the project forward to make full use of the opportunities that are likely to be out there.

Actually an intriguing set of requirements. The aircraft would need ideally to:

• have quite a good range: enough to do Christchurch to McMurdo, circle 45 minutes, socked in darn it - back to Christchurch;
• be nimble enough to get in and out of Wellington with a decent load of passengers on a trade trip to say Shanghai, and to get into and out of some Pacific Island places with not the longest runways.
• have a quick(ish) change interior between carrying maybe a couple of hundred soldiers, fifty or so VIPs, and a crisis medevac load

A main deck cargo door would be nice, but you almost certainly can't certify a pax+freight Combi against modern regulations. I guess the Air Force doesn't have to comply with that though?

 

[Gibbo]

"The government is buying more than $1.5 billion worth of new planes for the Defence Force.
Five new Lockheed Martin Super Hercules aircraft would replace the outdated and costly 1960s Hercules fleet, said Defence Minister Ron Mark.
The $1.521b project will include a flight simulator ... and other supporting infrastructure.
...
The aircraft and simulator are being bought through the United States' foreign military sales process, in a package that includes aircrew and maintainer training.
...
The new planes ... will be fitted with ... an electro-optical/infra-red camera
...
The first of the new Super Hercules will arrive in 2024, with all five operating a year later. "

New Defence Force planes to cost government more than $1.5 billion

Bloody good news, even though it's years overdue & to be honest 2-3 airframes light. However let's be happy with the confirmation... wonder what is defined by a simulator...task trainer or serious simulator, does make a difference to a small fleet. Pleased too that the electro-optical/infra-red sensors are included. Given every purchase now seems to reduce the numbers I guess we should be grateful with a 1 for 1 replacement. We can never say never as to a 2nd tranche, or some handme downs in future...not likely at present but going forward there is historical precedent with both our C130 (2 tranches) & P3 (2nd hand airframe) fleets. Wonder if RNZAF will retain the underwing tanks (RAAF has retained some). Roll on 2024

edit: LOL... good on him for slinging mud where absolutely warranted (regardless of headline it's actually swiping at all previous Govts who've delayed the inevitable): Fearless MP: Defence Minister's swipe at previous Govt while hanging out Air Force plane

 

[chis73]

I guess I have to eat a large helping of humble pie - I genuinely didn't believe that the C-130 replacement deal would get over the line before the election. So congrats to Ron Mark - Well done that man! I figured we would have to wait until post-election talks were over (presuming NZ First would have made it a coalition condition if they got back in, and Labour needed their support).

So happy days for the RNZAF. Time to party like it's 1999 - cos' that's when they should have had them.

Two minor quibbles:
1. 2024/2025 is a little too far into the future for my liking. The replacements were needed 20 years ago.
2. I'm puzzled at the low price announced (NZ$1.5b). The US FMS notification from Nov 2019 estimated US$ 1.4b (= NZ$2.2b) yet includes no mention of a simulator. The NZ dollar has dropped against the US dollar as well (especially compared to say 3 years ago) I find it difficult to believe we are getting a more than 30% discount. So what does that mean - something missing?

 

[ngatimozart]

I guess I have to eat a large helping of humble pie - I genuinely didn't believe that the C-130 replacement deal would get over the line before the election. So congrats to Ron Mark - Well done that man! I figured we would have to wait until post-election talks were over (presuming NZ First would have made it a coalition condition if they got back in, and Labour needed their support).

So happy days for the RNZAF. Time to party like it's 1999 - cos' that's when they should have had them.

Two minor quibbles:
1. 2024/2025 is a little too far into the future for my liking. The replacements were needed 20 years ago.
2. I'm puzzled at the low price announced (NZ$1.5b). The US FMS notification from Nov 2019 estimated US$ 1.4b (= NZ$2.2b) yet includes no mention of a simulator. The NZ dollar has dropped against the US dollar as well (especially compared to say 3 years ago) I find it difficult to believe we are getting a more than 30% discount. So what does that mean - something missing?

The figures quoted by the DSCA are indicative and for reporting purposes only. They are at the higher end of the scale and don't allow for negotiations over pricing etc.

 

[Nighthawk.NZ]

I guess I have to eat a large helping of humble pie - I genuinely didn't believe that the C-130 replacement deal would get over the line before the election. So congrats to Ron Mark - Well done that man! I figured we would have to wait until post-election talks were over (presuming NZ First would have made it a coalition condition if they got back in, and Labour needed their support).

I have to admit that I didn't expect the order to go through till next year after the election either, having said that, last year during the DCP 2019 (oh the memories of a good year ahhhh 2019 ...) briefing, Ron Mark did say that replacing the Herc's were a priority.

Technically (and only guessing) this money was already set aside for it as part of the budget.

 

[KiwiRob]

Also missed is the announcement for the infrastructure improvements at Ohakea.

Defence Minister Ron Mark said the money would be spent on improving old infrastructure.

He said safety issues would be addressed, as well as upgrades to taxiways, accommodation and fresh, storm and waste water systems.

"This spending is required to rectify longstanding problems with Base Ōhakea's supporting infrastructure and ensure the base can continue to function," he said.

Last year, RNZ reported that much of the nationwide Defence estate - camps, buildings, roads and water infrastructure - was outdated and 41 percent was barely meeting or failing to meet functional requirements.

Also last year, Mark announced an ambitious plan to upgrade the estate.

That $2.1 billion spend is part of a $20bn overhaul of old Defence Force infrastructure, platforms and buildings over the coming decades.

"A large proportion of the Defence Estate was built over 70 years ago, during World War II," Mark said.

"Almost 80 percent of the Defence Estate is reaching the end of its remaining useful life, and must be replaced in the next 30 years," he said.

Ōhakea base will be home to four new P8 Poseidon planes from 2023 and number five squadron will shift from Whenuapai to Ōhakea to fly them.

The P8s replace the ageing Orion fleet which went into service in the 1960s.

When RNZ visited Ōhakea and surrounding areas in late 2018, locals werehoping to cash in on the base's development.

As well as the P8s, the government is also splashing out on new planes to replace the old Hercules fleet.

Government approves $206 million spend on Ōhakea Air Base

The government has approved $206 million in essential upgrades at Ōhakea Air Base.

www.rnz.co.nz

The next thing the govt should do is close Whenupai, lets face it the area is now fast becoming another suburb, it's days are numbered. What they should do as part of there new post Covid-19 infrastructure spend up is pay for the second runway at AKL and build a new RNZAF base there for No. 6 and No. 40 squadrons and provide facilities for the P8's.

 

[ngatimozart]

Also missed is the announcement for the infrastructure improvements at Ohakea.

Government approves $206 million spend on Ōhakea Air Base

The government has approved $206 million in essential upgrades at Ōhakea Air Base.

www.rnz.co.nz

The next thing the govt should do is close Whenupai, lets face it the area is now fast becoming another suburb, it's days are numbered. What they should do as part of there new post Covid-19 infrastructure spend up is pay for the second runway at AKL and build a new RNZAF base there for No. 6 and No. 40 squadrons and provide facilities for the P8's.

Yep, however if they move DNB north to Whangarei from Devenport then they should move WP up there as well. That keeps 6 Sqn close to its ships and the naval establishment and it gives 40 Sqn plenty of room to move. Another point is that accommodation is cheaper there than in Auckland.

 

[Lucasnz]

Yep, however if they move DNB north to Whangarei from Devenport then they should move WP up there as well. That keeps 6 Sqn close to its ships and the naval establishment and it gives 40 Sqn plenty of room to move. Another point is that accommodation is cheaper there than in Auckland.

I know this is more for the navy thread, but personally I don't see how Devonport could move North, along with the Port of Auckland, given the depth of water is pretty limited in a lot of places. Increasingly my personal view is a second base a Picton with air based at Woodbourne. A two base option IMHO is the only realistic option given the increasing size of the ships being acquired.

WP is an interesting case, given some of proximity of bases to Urban areas the Singapore Airforce operates out of. While the land / space issues are unique to Singapore; NZ does not have an inexhaustible supply of land, short of building on farm land and removing forests. There is still some space around WP that could be used to preserve it as an operational base. Just requires a bit of government commitment beyond the 20 billion. Oh that's it I'm dreaming again.

 

[MrConservative]

Yep, however if they move DNB north to Whangarei from Devenport then they should move WP up there as well. That keeps 6 Sqn close to its ships and the naval establishment and it gives 40 Sqn plenty of room to move. Another point is that accommodation is cheaper there than in Auckland.

6 Sqd at a heliport base maybe, but the cost of building let alone the RMA difficulties an entirely new air base just for seven 40 transport planes is not going to be taken seriously. Hundreds of millions!

 

[MrConservative]

I know this is more for the navy thread, but personally I don't see how Devonport could move North, along with the Port of Auckland, given the depth of water is pretty limited in a lot of places. Increasingly my personal view is a second base a Picton with air based at Woodbourne. A two base option IMHO is the only realistic option given the increasing size of the ships being acquired.

I agree. There is no room to do both. A new naval base at North Port would be a good "prize" for Whangarei - the main commercial port is better in the place the expert independent working group hired by Mayor Len Brown selected - Matingarahi Point.

I think that a WB relocation would be a good place for the two training squadrons 42 and 14. Shift 40 Sqd also down to OH in their place and shift 6 Sqd to a naval heliport based at Whangarei - where the navy should go. Add an air movements facility at Auckland like CHC and WLG have. I agree there should be a 2nd naval base in the south island.

WP is an interesting case, given some of proximity of bases to Urban areas the Singapore Airforce operates out of. While the land / space issues are unique to Singapore; NZ does not have an inexhaustible supply of land, short of building on farm land and removing forests. There is still some space around WP that could be used to preserve it as an operational base. Just requires a bit of government commitment beyond the 20 billion. Oh that's it I'm dreaming again.

Also in Japan too they are in built up areas. JASDF Komaki is right in the middle of the Nagoya metro area and shares the single runway with the cities domestic airport. Certainly a bit busier than WB as a training base with a few daily scheduled Air NZ flights and they cope together fine.

 

[MrConservative]

I would locate my answer over in the RNZN thread where it would better to explore options.

 

[Gibbo]

6 Sqd at a heliport base maybe, but the cost of building let alone the RMA difficulties an entirely new air base just for seven 40 transport planes is not going to be taken seriously. Hundreds of millions!

Yes IMHO for that very reason of $$$ RNZAF's only realistic options for 40sqn (aside from WP) are AIA or Ohakea. Can't see Woodbourne being a serious contender as only the C130 could comfortably operate out of there and it is having increasingly suffering from the same 'crowded neighbourhood' issues WP is experiencing. Of the 2 options I'd assume Ohakea would be RNZAF's preferred option. As for 6sqn, it's not implausible that WP could be chopped down to a heliport operation but it'll largely depend on cost/ benefit of doing that versus moving to AIA. As for moving RNZN north... I think the costs are way under-estimated... it'd be $$billions$$.


Anyway on another matter I was just randomly thinking you know with the C130-J30 getting MX-20HD & a couple of the KA350 getting something similar (anyone know what model turret?) a significant portion of the combined RNZN/RNZAF fleet will have EO/IR capability (SH2G; P3/P8; C130J; KA350)...that's a very positive step in the right direction. Will no doubt also include UAV if the DCP plan for 2030+ plays out.

It will certainly allow the NZDF to deploy a wider range of air assets that can gather & process intelligence which is the way we need to move to make our small fleet more flexible in what it does. I think the 1 glaring omission in this maybe 3sqn - whetehr it be the NH-90 or even the AW109 their would be definite benefits in fielding a chopper with EO/IR capability... hopefully that is something that will get looked at.

It's all very much like what the RAAF intend with their Plan Jericho which is trialing litening pods on their C130J & EO/IR turrets on their KA350... it's all about moving into the digital age. I guess secptics could say we need to do so to keep current...well that's true, but I like to take a positive view of it all. A few relevant RAAF links... apologies if it breaks any posting rules:

Plan Jericho - At the Edge | Royal Australian Air Force

Plan Jericho is a strategy designed to transform the Royal Australian Air Force by capitalising on future high technology systems.

www.airforce.gov.au

Litening pod trials for RAAF C-130J Hercules | Defence News

Flight trials have begun for a Royal Australian Air Force C-130J Hercules transport aircraft equipped with a Northrop Grumman Litening sensor pod. Mounted on a pylon underneath the wing of the Hercules, the AN/AAQ-28(V) Litening pod is capable of recording video in day and night-time conditions...

news.defence.gov.au

32 Squadron King Airs gain new capabilities.

RAAF 32 Squadron King Airs becoming the Swiss Army knife of the Australian Defence Force. Last month Royal Australian Air Forces 32 squadron and 35 squadron worked together gaining greater interoperability deploying to the South Pacific for Operation Solania. Both squadrons conducted maritime...

www.aeroaustraliamag.com

 

[RetirementIsGood]

All this talk about moving Whenuapai overlooks the non-aviation assets there, particularly the SATCOM ground station and the HF aerial arrays and transmitters.
Shifting either or both of these would be tricky because of the need to find a place which is not only physically suitable but also one in which it is possible to get the required radio licenses. Not to mention potential screaming from the tinfoil hat brigade.

 

[htbrst]

. I think the 1 glaring omission in this maybe 3sqn - whetehr it be the NH-90 or even the AW109 their would be definite benefits in fielding a chopper with EO/IR capability... hopefully that is something that will get looked at.

I totally agree - I'm quietly hoping it is included in as part of the $21 million upgrade included along with the C-130 announcement, although it sounds like it may mostly be about air-traffic regulation requirements. From the beehive media release: Five new Super Hercules to join Air Force fleet

In addition, the Coalition Government has also approved $21 million to upgrade systems in the Air Force NH90 helicopters to comply with regulatory and operational requirements.

“This investment, building on the first tranche announced last year, will ensure that the New Zealand Defence Force’s aircraft are fitted with updated communication, navigation, air traffic management and identification systems,” Ron Mark said.

“The upgrade of the NH90 will be undertaken in cooperation with a number of other nations who operate these helicopters including Australia, Finland, Sweden, Germany, Italy, France, and Norway.

“This will provide us with an opportunity to share development costs amongst all participating nations, which means this approach is less expensive and risky than pursuing a bespoke solution.

“Without upgrading these systems the NZDF aircraft may be restricted in operations in both controlled civil and military airspace. Funding for this project will be provided for from NZDF baselines,” Ron Mark said.

 

[Gibbo]

I totally agree - I'm quietly hoping it is included in as part of the $21 million upgrade included along with the C-130 announcement, although it sounds like it may mostly be about air-traffic regulation requirements. From the beehive media release: Five new Super Hercules to join Air Force fleet

Yes I'm thinking the $21M for NH-90 is all about 'Operational and Regulatory Aviation Compliance' as per attached (also refer pg29 of the DCP)

https://www.defence.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/81c6364475/Operational-and-Regulatory-Aviation-Compliance-Sustainment.pdf

There is no logical crossover between the above & EO/IR capability so very much doubt the latter will be any part of this sub-project.

 

[htbrst]

A moaning article about the 757's both being simultaneously out of action for two weeks (scheduled maintenance for one, no spare engines for No.2)... Of course about 30 minutes after I read the article one flew overhead.: Both Air Force jets spend two weeks simultaneously out of action

The Defence Minister is out looking for second-hand airliners to replace them though...

The plan has 2028 as the year the replacements will be introduced into service, with an indicative cost of between $300 and $600 million.

Mark said deferring the replacement of the 757s had proven to be a good bet because more aircraft would become available as airlines look to sell their planes due to the effect of the coronavirus pandemic.

“I think that’s proven to be a good idea, because one of the things we never anticipated was Covid-19 and Covid-19 now has thrown off a whole whack of aircraft that are now surplus to requirements to the aviation companies that own them.”

 

[ngatimozart]

A moaning article about the 757's both being simultaneously out of action for two weeks (scheduled maintenance for one, no spare engines for No.2)... Of course about 30 minutes after I read the article one flew overhead.: Both Air Force jets spend two weeks simultaneously out of action

The Defence Minister is out looking for second-hand airliners to replace them though...

Well Air NZ have sent their B777 to the Aussie outback Boneyard. Minister Mark wouldn't have to look far, and Air NZ is into the Govt for $900 million, so it would be in Air NZ interest to play nice.

 

[RetirementIsGood]

Well Air NZ have sent their B777 to the Aussie outback Boneyard. Minister Mark wouldn't have to look far, and Air NZ is into the Govt for $900 million, so it would be in Air NZ interest to play nice.

Can a B777-200ER get into and out of Wellington with a useful load?
Can you land a B777-200ER at McMurdo?
These have got to be two of the baseline requirements.

If the answers are "yes", then a couple of these airframes might be a very attractive buy, because they'll be written down to about $0 in Air NZ's books.
Maybe splash out on a third and outfit it as "Kiwi Force One"? LOL