Royal New Zealand Air Force

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
Gibbo with all due respect the debate on air combat capability needs to be a bit more than a walk down nostalgia lane. The APDC wrote 12 months ago (and have over the last couple of years have made a number references to the gaping whole in NZDF capability):

The question for the RNZAF is, are we configured and prepared for ‘all eventualities’? For instance, should the international climate continue to deteriorate, should we consider obtaining an air combat capability? To even stand up a basic level of capability in this role would probably take around six years, and you can add another ten years to build up an experienced cadre of combat pilots. The dilemma for democratic leaders is perhaps facing the choice between defending their nations, and preserving their wealth and way of life. International norms are changing as we move from a unipolar to a bipolar world, and strategic relationships quickly evolve into a straight choice between the poles. The world’s political centre of gravity is shifting. So, are we in the midst of a warning time? Well, given that conflict has been central throughout history, and that is unlikely to change, the answer is, probably. And how much time do we have to prepare…only time will tell. The Warning Time - RNZAF Air Power Development Centre Bulletin - Issue 32, May 2019
Yeah no worries, with you on that one MrC... actually it was more my feeble attempt at moving away from the ACF debate into a more immediately pressing concern... the much hyped C130J purchase. I'd be one of the first to say nostalgia has no place in an argument for an ACF. We certainly face an uncertain future that could make level 4 lock-down look like a long weekend at the beach.

To be honest I am really concerned that whilst Australia has had the foresight to read the international stage and invested heavily in the ADF, NZ has gone the opposite way and reduced core capabilities and ended-up with a perpertually under-manned NZDF...although many defence forces possibly experience the latter. I also think that this widening gap has pissed the Australian Govts off and is a key factor in the very clear divergence of the close ties our 2 countries have historically enjoyed.

What is particularly worrisome is there's no 1 NZ political beast that has allowed this... I will avoid any deeper discussion on that but utlimately when you look at the record of what each of the 2 main political parties has done to put their money where their mouth is, they are cut of very similar cloth....they merely differ in the scissors they use to cut that cloth. It goes back before the ACF was cut, to substantial budget cuts, deferred replacements, non-replacements even... it started in the 1980's really... although economic conditions of the time were an explanation. When more recent Govt surpluses have been a regular thing, no change occurred and that is where the real rot started to set in.

The NZDF's core combat capability has evolved to now largely encapsulate SAS; 5&6 Sqn; 2 Frigates... not a lot! Other than these 3 core capabilities (which due to fleet & personnel sizes etc could not efficiently maintain long-term in-theatre presence), the remainder of the NZDF will merely play a support role for the ADF or other allies... keeping belingerent small states in line etc. There are some useful support capabilities such as divers; hydrographers; aircraft refuellers; combat engineers and so on that that would be useful in a more 'modular' fashion that could easily slot in alongside ADF units... I'm not belittling those contributions as they can be a powerful enabler if done 'properly'.

However by & large we are now a small player and will be sent to the edge of the sandpit when the big kids get stroppy. I would love to see a 4 frigate Navy and at least 1 full squadron of fast-jets with intercept & strike capability, whilst a squadron of top-end attack helicopters deployed on one of 2 RNZN LHD to provide a ground-attack capability in South Pacific amphib Operations. As to what platform types, I'm not an expert... I have opinions on what types may suit, but there is no 1 answer and therefore I defer to experts.

The first thing is to have such a requirement identified... that's my concern. What will it take for NZ to see the light & head back to an ACF, or increase combat capabilities across the NZDF spectrum? Unfortunately I have a view that the answer is simply 'nothing'. In other words, the crap will hit the fan, most likely in the South China sea and/or across into the South Pacific, but it will remain at what the NZ Govt will consider a suitable physical distance, meaning it will be happy merely offering capability what the NZDF can offer from existing capabilities, without any great feeling of guilt or regret. The GOTD will then remind us how well our contribution is helping allies and we are 'punching above our weight' etc... which would largely be a factually incorrect statement!

Unfortunately what political parties lack is any understanding of the fact that any such conflict will bring with it massive economic dislocation and quite possibly even an actual physical blockade (eg: a sub and mines threat closing most of our biggest harbours) ... that's when level-4 COVID lock down will look like a weekend at the beach. Hell NZ hasn't even managed to get it's head around the fact we would be hard pressed to clear mines from our harbours. Yes we have a handful of deployable MCM systems but why hasn't the RNZN got a top-end MCM capability as a core competency... and mine disposal is still largely dependent on clearance divers who in this day & age should be largely replaced by remotely operated disposal systems. NZ has many IMEX ports but no apparent strategy to protect them - how has that been allowed to happen!?!

Look I could go on for hours... and I'm ranting to the converted... but I have a somewhat pessimist view that anything will change NZ's level of investment. The DCP will address some issues, but needs to go much further even with existing capabilities before we consider expanding the lack of other capabilities such as an ACF. Modern weapon systems have become extremely expensive and to be honest I don't believe any Govt will justify trying to bridge that gap with the ADF & others. The other issue is the lead time to build capabilities... years fro an ACF... it will all just be put into the 'too hard' basket.

Yes I'm so pessimistic... and yes I'm sure my outlook may not prove 100% correct in the long term. Any nostalgia I show is more about NZ's previous place in, and understanding of, the world rather than just a yearning for an ACF.

Need coffee!
 
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hauritz

Well-Known Member
NZ should at least maintain some sort of basic capability that could be scaled up if required. At the moment they lack the ability to even intercept a civilian aircraft. Drug runners, smugglers and potential terrorists could have a field day as the RNZAF would have virtually no way of stopping them entering into their airspace. Even just a squadron of armed trainers would be better than nothing.

Perhaps something they should also look into are unmanned systems.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
NZ should at least maintain some sort of basic capability that could be scaled up if required. At the moment they lack the ability to even intercept a civilian aircraft. Drug runners, smugglers and potential terrorists could have a field day as the RNZAF would have virtually no way of stopping them entering into their airspace. Even just a squadron of armed trainers would be better than nothing.

Perhaps something they should also look into are unmanned systems.
There are no A2A UCAV FOC at the moment so it's a waste of time even suggesting such a capability, especially when the NZG will only accept mature capabilities that are in service with at least one of its FVEY partners.
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
Funding in the Defence budget for C-130J CapEx is there.
Newshub reports: "Almost $900 million has been earmarked to replace NZDF's aging Hercules fleet with newer planes - this funding will come into effect if it is approved by Cabinet."

Are there any indications yet of aircraft numbers and whether it includes a flight simulator?

I would suggest the air force requires a minimum of 5 (to ensure 2 are available for military deployments) or ideally 8 (to ensure 3 are available for deployments). But I recall "Point of Order" political "insider" blog in the last year or so hinting at 4 airframes (and their defence related articles are generally spot-on, they are clearly close to the Govt/agency contacts).

The other thing is NZ$900m is roughly US$539m ... unless the Govt has "done us proud" and got an incredibly good deal via FMS then surely that amount of funding isn't going to buy much? Obviously I hope I'm wrong on the latter! But another other thing is when the govt bandies figures around those prices include infrastructure, training and support packages so how far will that NZ$900m stretch in terms of aircraft numbers?

Finally Newshub states it still has to be approved by Cabinet. Good grief, how long has this issue dragged on for - this was all in play this time last year in Budget 2019! And I recall when this was first mooted a few years ago we were all discussing how the budget was some NZ$2,000m+ (for a wider and varied fleet), plus back then the NZ/US dollar was nearly even - we would have had more bang for buck back then!
 
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MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
What is probably not released yet is all the info as these budgets have a 4 year planned outlook. It may mean that initial project money will start flowing from a smaller base with the larger numbers being introduced over the next 4-5 years as the capability unfolds.

Have found the CapEX for the next while though but no precise details:

FY20/21 808,071,000 - A fair bit of the P-8A in this one.
FY21/22 1,452,660,000 - Which seems to be a fair chunk for the C-130J-30
FY22/23 572,688,000 - That is a big drop!
FY23/24 376,213,000 - That is an even bigger drop!
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
Finally Newshub states it still has to be approved by Cabinet. Good grief, how long has this issue dragged on for! I recall when this was first mooted a few years ago the budget was some NZ$2,000m!
That was for both Tactical ($1.4B) and Strategic ($600m) iirc. It will be five airframes though I suspect that the delivery of the 5th wont appear until 2025/26 after this 4 year appropriation band.
 

chis73

Active Member
That was for both Tactical ($1.4B) and Strategic ($600m) iirc. It will be five airframes though I suspect that the delivery of the 5th wont appear until 2025/26 after this 4 year appropriation band.
A what point should we consider a 'non-yes' a 'no'? No money appropriated for C130 replacement in this year's budget or forward estimates for the next 4 years. They have had an acceptance from the US to a FMS request on the cabinet table since what, Oct last year? Still no decision - after 8 months? They have had plenty of time to make a decision. To me, it looks like the answer is 'no'.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
A what point should we consider a 'non-yes' a 'no'? No money appropriated for C130 replacement in this year's budget or forward estimates for the next 4 years. They have had an acceptance from the US to a FMS request on the cabinet table since what, Oct last year? Still no decision - after 8 months? They have had plenty of time to make a decision. To me, it looks like the answer is 'no'.
You should tell Ron that as he has reported to the media that buying the C-130J quote "continues to be my highest priority as Minister of Defence".


As I have said before the money does not need to flow until an official confirmation, and they have 12 months to notify and the last 3 months have been a tad busy for the government. But looking at the CapEx increases baked in noted above and that the NZAF will be only paying for the gross weapon systems cost of the acquisition from the CapEx appropriation (usually around 50% of the project cost across instalment benchmarks) with significant funds set aside for CapEx out to 2024 the money seems to be there as they are the only show in town in terms of the major project spends for now. Note that there has been a huge jump in RNZAF appropriations on the OpEx side now over a Billion p.a to pay for the introduction of new capabilities - seems that is where a fair chunk of the other half of the acquisition quantum as usual is coming from.

Besides I cannot ever see Winston or Ron in particular not making this happen. NZ First have done pretty well in Defence in my view. With the P-8A and C-130J they will look upon as their legacy to New Zealand.
 

Xthenaki

Active Member
If the C130J deal goes ahead as is hoped - a stellar effort and first term for the Minister of Defence = Ron Mark. BUT --- what happens if Labour secure a second term and NZ First dont make it. Who is capable of filling the void. Mark Mitchell is of course National
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
If the C130J deal goes ahead as is hoped - a stellar effort and first term for the Minister of Defence = Ron Mark. BUT --- what happens if Labour secure a second term and NZ First don't make it. Who is capable of filling the void. Mark Mitchell is of course National
Phil Twyford, Chloe Swarbrick, Golriz Ghahraman, Tamati Coffey ..... real depth there .... :eek:
 
 

Wombat000

Well-Known Member
Im thinkin there is only so long these legacy C130s can persist at economic rates.

Unless NZ decides to forgo its airlift capability, (& i cannot see them ever doing that) then as i understand it, the Herc deal is in practicality implied to be accepted.

The arguments are far more persuasive for new aircraft then against it. What could possibly be a pressing benefit in procrastinating it especially as momentum has already started.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
Unless NZ decides to forgo its airlift capability, (& i cannot see them ever doing that) then as i understand it, the Herc deal is in practicality implied to be accepted.
This project is well underway and the money is locked in. I am sure that Mike Yardley and his Capability Delivery team at MinDef have been studiously putting all the pieces in play alongside the CapDev team at HQ NZDF in working with the US State Dept and the prime contractor LM right down to production slots. All that remains is the final sign off by the Cabinet, the formal letter sent to Washington and the signing ceremony.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
Are there any indications yet of aircraft numbers and whether it includes a flight simulator?
Like for like I understand. No sim required at this stage as I believe they will upgrade the CAE training package with the C-130H (NZ) upgrade. I estimation it will be pretty much a rubber stamping of the formal FMS request to the US State Dept approved last November.


This is the bit I would like to see confirmed:

"This purchase also includes sensors and performance improvements that will assist New Zealand during extensive maritime surveillance and reconnaissance as well as improve its search and rescue capability."
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Like for like I understand. No sim required at this stage as I believe they will upgrade the CAE training package with the C-130H (NZ) upgrade. I estimation it will be pretty much a rubber stamping of the formal FMS request to the US State Dept approved last November.


This is the bit I would like to see confirmed:

"This purchase also includes sensors and performance improvements that will assist New Zealand during extensive maritime surveillance and reconnaissance as well as improve its search and rescue capability."
Yes, I would think that it would be the cockpit instrument panel layout and flight dynamics that would have to be changed. Mostly, if not all, software coding changes.
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
See the T 6's are busy this weekend, must be still playing catch up as now Covid would have put further behind than they already where.
 
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