Whenuapai SATCOM ground facility would probably like hooking up to the C-130J's. Not 100% on this but Honeywell KA band.
Royal New Zealand Air Force
- Thread starter Lucasnz
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Not to hand. I'm going from memory of reports that Airbus has mentioned it as something that it could provide if any customer wants it, though of course it'd cut into the non-fuel cargo capacity (currently 45 tons with a full fuel load). Not developed, but it was done for the A310 MRTT, & should be relatively easy.
I’m not sure that your recall is correct, my understanding was most of the time that KC-30 hit max weight before max fuel.
This Link implies with an Empty Weight of 125T and a Max Weight of 233T, giving approx 110T of payload. Even if the numbers are off by a little I can’t see how it can lift another 45T of gas without being significantly over the max weight.
RetirementIsGood
New Member
A330 are now being built to a 242T MTOW standard.
According to Wikipedia, OEW is 121T and fuel capacity 109T, so you'd need about 12T of additional fuel tankage in the cargo holds to take you up to MTOW with just fuel.
But as others have said, I don't see the RNZAF needing an A2A tanker capability unless the strategic environment changes radically
Just a tip going forward. If you use Wikipedia as a reference please refer to the direct citation in the Wiki article that provides the factual basis rather than just a blanket "According to Wiki". Cheers MrC.
Wikipedia isn't a reliable source.
Moving onto other news, the first RNZAF P-8A crews are in the US undergoing training to operate the P-8A Poseidon. The first aircraft will be delivered in late 2022. The info has just been posted on the RNZAF Facebook page.
Nighthawk.NZ
Well-Known Member
Both Air Force jets spend two weeks simultaneously out of actionBoth Air Force jets spend two weeks simultaneously out of action
Both Boeing 757s of the Royal New Zealand Air Force (RNZAF) recently spent two weeks unable to fly.
One of the jet aircraft returned to service on Thursday following routine scheduled maintenance, a Defence Force spokeswoman confirmed.
But the other will remain on the ground for months yet, as it awaits the return of a serviceable engine following an overhaul, due for completion in September.
The two jet transport aircraft were out of action between May 25 and June 10, though the spokeswoman said C-130H Hercules remained available during that time.
The two Boeing 757s, introduced in 2003 to replace ageing Boeing 727s, are used for tasks including VIP transport, deploying personnel and equipment, aeromedical evacuation and rapid response to disasters and humanitarian crises.
One of the jets broke down in July 2019 in Melbourne, forcing Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern to take a commercial flight home.
Speaking to Stuff earlier in June following the confirmation of five Super Hercules to replace the ageing Hercules C-130H transport fleet, Defence Minister Ron Mark said the previous Government was looking at replacing the five Hercules and two 757s together.
“My decision was these things were in such dire straits right now we need to focus on getting the Hercules question resolved,” Mark said.
The 2019 Defence Capability Plan said engagement with industry for the replacement of the 757s will begin in 2021, followed by a request for tender in 2024.
The plan has 2028 as the year the replacements will be introduced into service, with an indicative cost of between $300 and $600 million.
Mark said deferring the replacement of the 757s had proven to be a good bet because more aircraft would become available as airlines look to sell their planes due to the effect of the coronavirus pandemic.
“I think that’s proven to be a good idea, because one of the things we never anticipated was Covid-19 and Covid-19 now has thrown off a whole whack of aircraft that are now surplus to requirements to the aviation companies that own them.”
This article was post here a few days ago... I can seem to find the post....
However, I do find the last two paragraphs are interesting so maybe second hand and maybe from AirNZ as suggested... however the time line given in the DCP would not really work to be in service in 8 years time...
stupid keyboard (ok fat fingers) had to edit this post 6832 times it seems lol)
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Yep, but now and the next 12 months will be the buyers market. After that future airline air travel will start to crystallize and used airliner availability could drop and prices rise. So putting off B757-200 Combi replacement until 2028 achieves nothing in that context. It's just pollie double speak.
Doh! The Airbus A330 MRTT page says 45 tons maximum cargo. I foolishly took that as with a full fuel load - but it doesn't say that. Max fuel volume of the A330-200 is given as 139090 litres, or about 111 tons. MTOW 242.0 tons, max ramp weight 242.9. No OEW, but max zero fuel weight is given as 170 tons. That only leaves 72.9 tons for fuel up to max ramp weight, & 131.9 tons or so of aircraft plus everything except fuel at max weight. Not much margin for extra fuel. A few tons.
Yeah, I must have remembered wrong.
Nighthawk.NZ
Well-Known Member
Well, they signed the dotted line ... the deal is done... :-/
They are the oldest frames in Air NZ's fleet, they aren't young by airline standards they are middle aged, Air NZ was going to replace them with 787-10's before Covid-19 parked them. These are well maintained but high hour aircraft, they were the work horses of the longhaul fleet.
The main problem with the A330 for cargo conversion is the sloping floor, the A330F fixes this with having a relocated nose wheel which removes the floor slope.
14 years old. Had their major depot check and refurbishment a couple of years ago. Normal hours for the type after 14 years, but lower than normal for the important takeoff and landing cycles. Yes were to be replaced between 2022 and 2025 as the B787-10 starts arriving between 2022 and 2027.
Could I then ask if we went down this track and added them to the RNZAF if and only if there was some creative accounting, maybe a contra with government taking for say part of the current bail out money ,should then A400m come back into play? say two airframes for outsized and strategic movements, it may have a silver lining and kill more than two birds with one stone!!
Good question, but the answer is not quite that easy.
The only advantage the A400M over the C-130J-30 would have in terms of outsize loads would be the ability to air deploy a NH90 once it has been partially dismantled and will require reassembly on arrival and the transportation of a HX77 MHOV. It still would not airlift a REBS bridge gapping system.
The C-130J-30 unlike the current C-130H can now airlift a NZLAV into the South Pacific or East Coast of Australia (Not really a priority requirement even if we had the A400M) and a HX60 MHOV with semi deflated tyres (soon sorted with an air compressor). It can also air deploy an AW-109 (Like the NH90 will require partial dismantling but half the time) if an urgent rotary requirement was needed in terms of a HADR operation. The C-130J-30 can also deploy the M1089 Wrecker, the Bushmaster and a Supercat, and the HMEE Combat Tractor (Which would all be either a rare or virtually never will happen scenario).
But the reality is we will be acquiring two multirole amphibious ships to replace Canterbury. Together the C-130J-30 and a decent sized converted commercial airliner can pretty much get an urgent capability to anywhere in the South Pacific with the main heavy and outsize loads done by sealift.
The cost of a couple of A400M and the immense outlay including the full backend support makes for a poor acquisition decision. Well over half a billion dollars to get a NH90 and HX77 72 hours faster to Rarotonga to support a HDAR or SASO tasking, when an LUH and a MX60 could give an urgent capability via C-130J-30 are likely to be adequate enough under short term emergency conditions.
If there were savings to be had by the acquisition of a couple of ex Air NZ B772-ER's from the strategic component of the FAMC (Which there undoubtably is even following a conversion estimated to be circa USD$35m) then that money would be far better spent on increasing the C-130J-30 fleet and / or boosting the numbers of rotary assets.
Thus the A400M in our NZDF context and core area of operations is a solution that leaves very few answers unsolved. That is why it was never selected after an exhaustive FAMC evaluation.
I have copied this graphic from another forum and it illustrates the payload capabilities of the B777-200 compared to that of other platforms operated by both ourselves and our allies and coalition partners.
The graphic shows that the B777-200 is capable of lifting just under twice the payload of a C-17A to Phoenix field and back, and twice that of a B767-300W BCF. The next point to be addressed is something that has been pointed out to me by a colleague. We actually don't move outsized equipment a lot, which brings us to the 3rd point. Two B777-200 aircraft can move a complete battalion and their personal kit. That is a capability that our allies and friends don't have and would be very interested in, so it offers quid pro quo for us wanting to move outsized kit.
Therefore there are distinct advantages in NZDF acquiring 4 B777-200ER from Air NZ, flying 3 and leaving the 4th one in the desert using it for spares.
The graphic shows that the B777-200 is capable of lifting just under twice the payload of a C-17A to Phoenix field and back, and twice that of a B767-300W BCF. The next point to be addressed is something that has been pointed out to me by a colleague. We actually don't move outsized equipment a lot, which brings us to the 3rd point. Two B777-200 aircraft can move a complete battalion and their personal kit. That is a capability that our allies and friends don't have and would be very interested in, so it offers quid pro quo for us wanting to move outsized kit.
Therefore there are distinct advantages in NZDF acquiring 4 B777-200ER from Air NZ, flying 3 and leaving the 4th one in the desert using it for spares.
An article just published in Flight Global which is their interview with RNZAF CAF AVM Andrew Clark.
www.flightglobal.com
Of note was this paragraph:
This is the first time that I have seen any official reference to a medium sized surveillance aircraft as part of the EMAC. Previously people like myself, @MrConservative and others have been of the opinion that the KA350 could be a top contender in the EMAC role. I had discounted platforms such as the C295 and others. However this changes the game somewhat and I would hazard a good guess that they are not looking at full blown ASW & ASuW capabilities. It could be assumed that they would most likely be more interested in surveillance capabilities.
From memory I think that Air NZ have some ATR72 parked up as well. It may be possible that the RNZAF could acquire say 5 - 6 of them and use them in the EMAC role. They would require a maritime search radar, E/O turret and the usual secure comms gear. If range needs to be extended then extra tank(s) could be fitted in the cargo hold. Like CAF said in his interview they can be tasked for other roles as well.
Definitely something worth thinking about.
RNZAF chief eyes big region, broad requirements
The Royal New Zealand Air Force (RNZAF) operates in a vast geography that ranges from idyllic Pacific islands to Antarctica, and also deals with a broad array of missions. RNZAF chief Air Vice Marshal Andrew Clark says that the missions of the broader New Zealand Defence Force fall into two ...
www.flightglobal.com
Of note was this paragraph:
"One compelling acquisition that was listed in the plan calls for an airborne surveillance capability to complement the P-8A. Clark says that this is now referred to as EMAC, short for enhanced maritime awareness capability. However effective, four P-8As will not be the entire solution for New Zealand’s maritime domain awareness requirement. Clark foresees a layered approach that includes space-based surveillance, as well as a medium-sized surveillance aircraft that lacks the range of the P-8A, but which has high utilisation rates in support of civilian agency requirements. UAVs are also seen as part of this surveillance mix."
This is the first time that I have seen any official reference to a medium sized surveillance aircraft as part of the EMAC. Previously people like myself, @MrConservative and others have been of the opinion that the KA350 could be a top contender in the EMAC role. I had discounted platforms such as the C295 and others. However this changes the game somewhat and I would hazard a good guess that they are not looking at full blown ASW & ASuW capabilities. It could be assumed that they would most likely be more interested in surveillance capabilities.
From memory I think that Air NZ have some ATR72 parked up as well. It may be possible that the RNZAF could acquire say 5 - 6 of them and use them in the EMAC role. They would require a maritime search radar, E/O turret and the usual secure comms gear. If range needs to be extended then extra tank(s) could be fitted in the cargo hold. Like CAF said in his interview they can be tasked for other roles as well.
Definitely something worth thinking about.
Nighthawk.NZ
Well-Known Member
Don't the RNZAF already use the KA350 for training in this role??? Which would make so much easier, quicker and cheaper to take it that step further...
Yes they do, but he said medium sized aircraft, and that a King Air isn't. It has the range, but maybe not the capacity that they are looking at. The current King Airs are leased apart from the GFE fitted to them.
An article just published in Flight Global which is their interview with RNZAF CAF AVM Andrew Clark.
RNZAF chief eyes big region, broad requirements
The Royal New Zealand Air Force (RNZAF) operates in a vast geography that ranges from idyllic Pacific islands to Antarctica, and also deals with a broad array of missions. RNZAF chief Air Vice Marshal Andrew Clark says that the missions of the broader New Zealand Defence Force fall into two ...
Of note was this paragraph:
"One compelling acquisition that was listed in the plan calls for an airborne surveillance capability to complement the P-8A. Clark says that this is now referred to as EMAC, short for enhanced maritime awareness capability. However effective, four P-8As will not be the entire solution for New Zealand’s maritime domain awareness requirement. Clark foresees a layered approach that includes space-based surveillance, as well as a medium-sized surveillance aircraft that lacks the range of the P-8A, but which has high utilisation rates in support of civilian agency requirements. UAVs are also seen as part of this surveillance mix."
This is the first time that I have seen any official reference to a medium sized surveillance aircraft as part of the EMAC. Previously people like myself, @MrConservative and others have been of the opinion that the KA350 could be a top contender in the EMAC role. I had discounted platforms such as the C295 and others. However this changes the game somewhat and I would hazard a good guess that they are not looking at full blown ASW & ASuW capabilities. It could be assumed that they would most likely be more interested in surveillance capabilities.
From memory I think that Air NZ have some ATR72 parked up as well. It may be possible that the RNZAF could acquire say 5 - 6 of them and use them in the EMAC role. They would require a maritime search radar, E/O turret and the usual secure comms gear. If range needs to be extended then extra tank(s) could be fitted in the cargo hold. Like CAF said in his interview they can be tasked for other roles as well.
Definitely something worth thinking about.
Yes interesting... I also assumed that extra KA350(er) would be the easy, affordable & therefore logical choice... whether the GOTD sees something bigger than a KA350 as justified is a different matter. Given the DCP is quite clear that this capability will be largely supporting civilian agencies (& SAR) you can fairly safely assume this will be an unarmed capability with surface-search EO/IR turret sensors only... no ASW & ASuW capability (same as 2 x 42sqn KA350 now have). I'm ok with that as long as the P8 gets largely ring-fenced for the heavier-end jobs...which I think is a safe bet!
I wonder if the AVM is being just a little over-optimistic that they'll get satellites + fixed wing + UAV.
I don't think he's been over optimistic. It depends upon how much they are willing to take advantage of opportunities, for example say acquiring 6 surplus Air NZ ATR72 aircraft and fitting the sensors, coms gear etc., off the P3K2 to them. The aircraft will be relatively inexpensive and we've already got the gear, so it's a cost effective option and the work could potentially be done here, maybe at Woodbourne which IIRC, did the P3K2.
The UAV could be the MQ-9B SeaGuardian which is significantly cheaper than the MQ-4C Triton. Satellites are different story and traditional surveillance satellites are expensive and sitting targets. They could lease / buy sensor bandwidth off commercial birds but that's expensive and doesn't supply all the data that they require. They could look at new technologies such as cubesats and work with those. The sensors are certainly being miniaturized enough to possibly fit a satellite that could be launched from Mahia, but would they be willing to take such a risk? I think at some stage they will have to seriously consider cubesats because NZDF will require replacement satellites to be launched quickly as existing satellites are neutralized. It would be something that our allies would also be very interested in because (from memory) we and the US have the only operational satellite launch facilities on sovereign territory within FVEY. Outside of FVEY, the only other partner nation within the region would be Japan.