Australian Army Discussions and Updates

[pussertas]

Australia Kick-Starts Special Operations Light Helicopter Acquisition Effort
(Source: Forecast International; issued Oct 02, 2018)

CANBERRA -- The Australian Department of Defense has initiated a project calling for the acquisition of light helicopters required to support special operations. This requirement was laid out earlier in Australia's 2016 Defense White Paper.

The Department of Defense issued requests for information (RFIs) on September 25, 2018, calling for helicopters optimized for operating in dense urban environments that can be deployed by C-17 strategic airlifters.

The RFI does not outline quantity to be ordered, but does note that Australia seeks commencement of deliveries in 2023 if a contract comes to fruition. Each helicopter must be fitted with usable, proven ISR (intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance) and weapons systems.

They will be used for insertion and extraction of small Special Forces teams and capable of providing fire support for said teams.

Possible alternatives include the Boeing AH-6 Little Bird and Airbus Helicopters H125M

About time!

 

[MARKMILES77]

I see it comming down to H135 or H145 v AH-6 with the AW-119 and Bell 407 the outsiders. The RFI calls for the ability to be able to deploy 3-4 Aircraft at short notice so i'm guessing we are looking at around 15-18 Aircraft total?

Request for information doesn't specify aircraft numbers but requires 16 aircraft online at any given time.
Therefore likely to be far more than 16 purchased. 25+?

Defensenews.com 3 Oct 2018
Nigel Pittaway
The RFI calls for four helicopters to be maintained online at Holsworthy, in addition to the independent detachment (four aircraft) and two deployable elements, each of four helicopters. The number of helicopters to be acquired is not specified in the document, but respondents are asked to provide an assessment of how many will be needed to support 16 aircraft online at any given time.

 

[MARKMILES77]

Northstar Aviations option was physically at Avalon Airshow in 2017.
They call it the 407MRH
The also offer the exact same fit out for other small helicopters. So could be offered on an EC- 135.
The 4 station Light Weight Weapons Platform can be rapidly fitted or removed depending on the mission.

 

[MARKMILES77]

Version shown at Avalon 2017

 

[t68]

With 4 airframes being the requirement to be moved by a single C17 why would it’s surprising that Bell has put forward the UH-1Venom , wouldn’t it be just easier to rebuild the current BlackHawks in the role?

 

[ngatimozart]

With 4 airframes being the requirement to be moved by a single C17 why would it’s surprising that Bell has put forward the UH-1Venom , wouldn’t it be just easier to rebuild the current BlackHawks in the role?

But the operative term is 4 airframes being the requirement to be moved by a single C17. Is the C-17 able to move 4 Blackhawks at the same time without the helos having to be dismantled in anyway shape or form? From memory I think that they could fit in 3 UH-1H Iroquois without dismantling.

 

[t68]

But the operative term is 4 airframes being the requirement to be moved by a single C17. Is the C-17 able to move 4 Blackhawks at the same time without the helos having to be dismantled in anyway shape or form? From memory I think that they could fit in 3 UH-1H Iroquois without dismantling.

Sorry that last post I didn’t Hurry at work,

That’s what I was referring to the surprising Bell put the venom up for consideration in regards to its size when it may be cheaper to rebuild the current Blackhawks if they go with size.

 

[Takao]

The downside for the SF is that having a unique type means that there’s never doubt about when the SF are on the move.
I would think that being anonymous is one of the key requirements for SF operations but I’m happy to be told otherwise by those who know or am I overstating the case?

Putting aside the additional fleet management that argues against a unique SF platform and the disadvantages of the MH-6 family, this is my number one concern with a unique fleet. Ironic considering the date you posted, but easy identification of SF missions is a real issue that has hurt States in the past - Mogadishu - but is constantly pooh-poohed by the current capability. My lesson in this came from Dili in 2006/07, when the local knew a Black Hawk from the HPOD was a regular force doing a normal mission but a Black Hawk from the APOD was an SF mission and they had to hide.

But there is a fundamental question here that needs justification from SOCOMD on may acquisitions - why can't you use a platform already in use by the regular force? While there are aspects of SF missions that require 'stuff' beyond the conventional force; those differences are often still able to be met by conventional platforms with a corresponding boost in logistic and signature management.

 

[Takao]

Sorry that last post I didn’t Hurry at work,

That’s what I was referring to the surprising Bell put the venom up for consideration in regards to its size when it may be cheaper to rebuild the current Blackhawks if they go with size.

There will be a (very short) time requirement between the C-17 landing and the helicopter starting its mission. I'd be very, very surprised if a UH-1Y or any UH-60 variant can meet that timeline.

 

[t68]

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What has this got to do with the current situation for the current debate?

 

[John Fedup]

Nothing, just like the other threads he has been dumping this message on.

 

[Nurse]

Longtime reader, first ever post-be gentle. As for the light helo requirement I wanted to see if there was something new. This seems to fit the bill

S-97 RAIDER® Demonstrator

A risk for sure but it looks the goods.

 

[toryu]

Longtime reader, first ever post-be gentle. As for the light helo requirement I wanted to see if there was something new. This seems to fit the bill

S-97 RAIDER® Demonstrator

*Puts on fluffy gentle gloves*

Hello and welcome 'Nurse',

The RFI calls for a "commercial or military off-the-shelf design". Unfortunately the S-97 does not exist in any final form beyond a couple of prototypes that still have years of development ahead of them. It's currently being considered in a US Army competition which is probably years more away from being decided. If the US doesn't pick it up, then it may never even enter production.

With the delivery date for this particular Australian requirement just a few years away, this particular option could not be considered.

 

[Redlands18]

Longtime reader, first ever post-be gentle. As for the light helo requirement I wanted to see if there was something new. This seems to fit the bill

S-97 RAIDER® Demonstrator

A risk for sure but it looks the goods.

Welcome.
The S-97 is only in development at this stage and has a long way to go before it will be on the Market(no certainty).
Certainly has huge potential but is more a Blackhawk/MRH-90 replacement then a MH-6 Replacement. Maybe a MRH-90 replacement for the ADF mid 2030s.

 

[Stampede]

Longtime reader, first ever post-be gentle. As for the light helo requirement I wanted to see if there was something new. This seems to fit the bill

S-97 RAIDER® Demonstrator

A risk for sure but it looks the goods.

Welcome aboard.

The real reason it won't be selected is that the dimensions are in Latin.

 

[ngatimozart]

Welcome aboard.

The real reason it won't be selected is that the dimensions are in Latin.

Well it's not our fault that they can't understand metrics.

 

[FormerDirtDart]

Welcome.
The S-97 is only in development at this stage and has a long way to go before it will be on the Market(no certainty).
Certainly has huge potential but is more a Blackhawk/MRH-90 replacement then a MH-6 Replacement. Maybe a MRH-90 replacement for the ADF mid 2030s.

Ummm...No
You're obviously confusing the S-97 with the Sikorsky-Boeing JMR/FVL entrant SB-1 Defiant
The S-97 was eyed as an entrant in the cancelled US Army Armed Aerial Scout program. And, is currently being aggressively marketed as an Attack/Reconnaissance/SpecOps light multirole helicopter

Now, I think it would be seriously unlikely for the Raider to be a candidate. On the 'bigger' side of the light helicopters I could see something like the Panther/Dauphin (before you scoff, the Brits use it in their Joint Special Forces Aviation Wing). But, more likely something (as others have suggested) along the lines of the H134 & H145 or A/MH-6, and if Bell Textron gets off their duff and back in the game with the 407 or 429(doesn't the RAN fly them?)

 

[Stampede]

Regarding a light helicopter for the Army, is there a need for a limited replacement of the Kiowa for work in permissive environments doing light logistical and surveillance work.
Maybe a class of two of the same platform.
A gunned up special tricks version for the special forces and a basic unit for general duties.
Certainly would have better economy to our larger helicopter platforms and maybe provide as good a service on many missions that a larger helicopter could be classed as overkill. Not a substitute but a compliment to our existing helicopter fleet.

Thoughts
Regards S

 

[t68]

Regarding a light helicopter for the Army, is there a need for a limited replacement of the Kiowa for work in permissive environments doing light logistical and surveillance work.
Maybe a class of two of the same platform.
A gunned up special tricks version for the special forces and a basic unit for general duties.
Certainly would have better economy to our larger helicopter platforms and maybe provide as good a service on many missions that a larger helicopter could be classed as overkill. Not a substitute but a compliment to our existing helicopter fleet.

Thoughts
Regards S

I was under the impression that the ARH had taken over the Kiowa tasking to a degree. The US did what was known as Kiowa Warrior with weapons compatible with the current ARH, not sure how many fit into a C17 but I do know that two KW fit into a C130

 

[Takao]

I was under the impression that the ARH had taken over the Kiowa tasking to a degree. The US did what was known as Kiowa Warrior with weapons compatible with the current ARH, not sure how many fit into a C17 but I do know that two KW fit into a C130

The Tiger took over all the reconnaissance roles; the command and liaison done by the Kiowa's haven't really been replaced.

@Stampede is correct, in that there are roles that the current fleet doesn't really do, light logistics and C&L. 171 Sqn took Huey's to Ache in 2004 because a Black Hawk was too big, the downdraft was assessed as being too great. An EC 135/145 could be perfect for that light logistics (including light casevac / AME) / C&L role that the fleet doesn't do and a H-6 cannot.

Now - whether we can afford that, or need it as much as other gaps, that's another question. But I think there is value in buying a fleet that provide commonality across a broader range than just some bespoke SO role