Royal New Zealand Air Force

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
Good to see the A400 making this visit and importantly, giving defence and govt officials the opportunity to get to know its capabilities first hand.

Can't help feeling though the MSM is missing the mark when they talk about the A400 being a C-130 replacement contender. Planning wise the NZDF requires a tactical replacement within 3 years or so (presumably that's where the likes of the KC-390 or C-130J come into contention, plus they are largely "do-able" in that timeframe). Be interesting to see if Airbus can make the A400 available in that timeframe otherwise if not, then all is not lost for them in terms of the strategic replacement mix earmarked for the early to mid 2020's? Along with the C-2 presumably, and/or any KC-46 or KC-30 type .... ideally the NZDF needs around 3 different types but I suppose if one of the manufacturers can make one of their options fit two of the types, that'll sway the bean counters ...?
The A400M is doable in the 2021 timeframe looking at the production tempo and option taking. It will actually be more interesting if the other contenders (C-130J not withstanding) can meet that timeframe. The C-2 and the KC-390 are still to go through full US/EU type certification which is an absolute requirement for the FAMC. Remember there is an order book for 60 of the KC-390 so we would have to slot into that. The C-2 production line has physical space limits as well with the max capacity for KHI is up to a mix of either/or 10 P-1's and C-2's a year. I think it is a 7/3 rate at the moment.

People should keep in mind the Defence Co-operation signed in 2015 during the at the Shangri La Dialogue in Singapore which had a focus on capability development, training, personnel exchanges and theatre operations. All part of the decision shaping just as much as product x versus product y.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
A F/A-18F Super Hornet? I had thought only the legacy Hornet was showing up. Has Eastie quietly borrowed one for the weekend to come home and visit his old mates?
It looks like one. There is a twin seater in a couple of the photos and it has the red white blue RAAF roundel which some of the Shornets arrived with from the US.
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
RNZAF Twitter feed has the two F-16C's and the KC-135 just landed minutes ago at OH.

https://twitter.com/NZAirForce?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author

Great to see the F-16 back at OH after 30 years and 15 years on from when they should have been there with Kiwi roundels.

If history had gone 'better' maybe they would have just gone through their MLU upgrades to V standard in time for the RNZAF's 80th .... :(

Oh well ....
Fully agree and the other thing is, if we look back to DWP2010 and another "what if" scenario ..... if only the Govt back then had the fortitude to start to rebuild a new ACF (or interim capability to maintain skillsets) then where would we be today some 6+ years later? Probably 3/4 of the way to FOC etc!

Granted, the country was coming through the GFC and therefore there wasn't the will (in terms of priorities), which unfortunately was mostly understandable. Even DWP2015 didn't present the opportunity, because by and large and for better or worse, DWP15 was pretty much a "steady as she goes" update of the previous DWP10 (rather than a reset, and to the disappointment of our Trans-Tasman neighbours in a number of quarters).

So now the defence capability project (DWP's 10 & 15) is on track, could the next DWP in 2020 provide the reset?

Then if so, what should an "ACF" look like? Can't see any political boldness to be (ideally) lock step with our neighbour's (5th generation), so would we stump for a 4th generation type rehash (and if so what's the point), or, as per the recent discussions on the P-8, should that present the opportunity to acquire another few airframes?

Not only would that make up numbers/availability for normal ISR taskings, but additionally it could also give NZ a great maritime interdiction asset? What would be the pros and cons? Obviously unlike a fighter/attack jet the (larger more conspicuous) P-8 wouldn't be mixing it down to sea level on attack, but presumably that's not necessary with long range stand off delivery (at altitude) capabilities anyway - a possible win-win?
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
Fully agree and the other thing is, if we look back to DWP2010 and another "what if" scenario ..... if only the Govt back then had the fortitude to start to rebuild a new ACF (or interim capability to maintain skillsets) then where would we be today some 6+ years later? Probably 3/4 of the way to FOC etc!

Granted, the country was coming through the GFC and therefore there wasn't the will (in terms of priorities), which unfortunately was mostly understandable. Even DWP2015 didn't present the opportunity, because by and large and for better or worse, DWP15 was pretty much a "steady as she goes" update of the previous DWP10 (rather than a reset, and to the disappointment of our Trans-Tasman neighbours in a number of quarters).

So now the defence capability project (DWP's 10 & 15) is on track, could the next DWP in 2020 provide the reset?

Then if so, what should an "ACF" look like? Can't see any political boldness to be (ideally) lock step with our neighbour's (5th generation), so would we stump for a 4th generation type rehash (and if so what's the point), or, as per the recent discussions on the P-8, should that present the opportunity to acquire another few airframes?

Not only would that make up numbers/availability for normal ISR taskings, but additionally it could also give NZ a great maritime interdiction asset? What would be the pros and cons? Obviously unlike a fighter/attack jet the (larger more conspicuous) P-8 wouldn't be mixing it down to sea level on attack, but presumably that's not necessary with long range stand off delivery (at altitude) capabilities anyway - a possible win-win?
From the FASC doxs - sorry it is a cut and paste job as I cannot link to it but the air combat capability is returning in a new form ....

FASC Response Capability

The FASC project is currently analysing the need for response capabilities, also known as ‘air attack’ in air power doctrine terminology, which are able to coerce an actual, or potential, adversary into changing or maintaining their behaviour to the benefit of the NZDF or NZ Government. The response capabilities of interest to the FASC project are:

 Anti Submarine Warfare (ASW): Operations that are conducted with the intention of denying the enemy the effective use of submarines and mitigating against the threat of underwater units and mobile weapons within the maritime environment by destroying or neutralising the threat presented;

 Anti Surface Warfare (ASuW): Operations that are conducted to mitigate against the threat of enemy surface forces within the maritime environment and disrupting the enemy's sea lines of communication by destroying or neutralising their surface forces and merchant ships;

 Air Interdiction (AI): Action to destroy, disrupt, divert or delay the enemy’s surface potential before it can be used effectively against friendly forces, or otherwise achieve its objectives. It is carried out at such distance from friendly forces that detailed integration of each air mission with the fire and movement of friendly forces is not required;

 Electronic Warfare (EW): Seeks control of the electromagnetic (EM) spectrum, both to enable friendly-force operations, and to deny an enemy the same degree of freedom. It includes defending electronic emitters and receivers from attack via the electromagnetic spectrum (Electronic Protection or EP), and attacking or exploiting enemy electronic emitters and receivers (Electronic Attack or EA).

Concept of Operations for FASC

1. The operational concept for the FASC in Defence will be largely a continuation of the extant P-3K2 Orion based concept, adapted to exploit any greater platform and capability systems performance of the FASC fleet and support systems.

2. The annual operational rate of effort for the FASC will be determined by the capabilities of the acquired platforms. The capacity of FASC to deliver at least the current rates of effort, between 2500 to 3200 hours of airborne operations per year, is expected from the project. The capacity of a FASC fleet to support contemporaneous operations in various areas including New Zealand and the Southern Ocean, South Pacific, Asia-Pacific or at times globally; is valued by the Government.

3. The capability would be operated and supported from a main operating base (or possibly two main operating bases if the fleet composition makes that more appropriate) within New Zealand.

4. Within the New Zealand area, FASC operations will assist with protecting New Zealand’s interests in the Exclusive Economic Zone and Southern Ocean, and contribute to security through combating terrorism and providing support to the civil power. In the broader region, the FASC will be one of the elements that will work with Australian forces to promote and maintain a cooperative approach to regional security.

5. Deployed operations will be conducted from appropriately supported forward operating bases and, where available, will integrate with coalition or partner operations and support arrangements.

6. In the South Pacific, the FASC will enable New Zealand to contribute to the region’s peace and security, and help to maintain the sovereignty of those territories for which New Zealand has constitutional responsibilities.

7. The FASC will also assist during civil emergencies, and with Exclusive Economic Zone surveillance, search and rescue and humanitarian assistance. In the Asia-Pacific region, the FASC will contribute to military operations and will continue to be a key Defence contribution to Five Power Defence Arrangement activities. Globally, the FASC may be used by the Government to support multilateral military operations.

8. Within the military context, these FASC operations will involve support for maritime forces, land forces, air forces and Special Forces, as well as independent air operations. Within the broader whole-of-Government context, FASC operations will also support Government agencies including Fisheries, Customs, Police, Conservation, Maritime New Zealand and the Rescue Coordination Centre.

9. Defence's concepts for a multi-mission force (multipurpose platforms) mean that several of these Government agencies will receive concurrent support from FASC operations. The roles required of the FASC to support these military and whole-of- Government operations consist of surveillance and reconnaissance, search and rescue, direct support anti-submarine warfare and anti-surface warfare, precision strike and command, control and communication. The FASC will also undertake and enable core training and ancillary flying activities necessary to sustain its operations.

10. The existing command and control arrangements apply to the FASC and would deploy forward for both national and coalition missions with national command and control (C2) elements supporting deployed elements either stand alone or embedded in the coalition C2 arrangements. Where appropriate, operational control of FASC elements will be delegated for deployed operations and tactical control delegated for on-scene control of aircraft.

11. Where appropriate, FASC control arrangements must allow sufficient freedom of action for aircraft to contribute to a network enabled environment to allow a broader range of forces and stakeholders to operate more effectively with shared situational awareness. FASC information sharing will be accomplished using the aircrafts’ communication systems in the airborne environment and using a mission planning and analysis system in the ground environment.

Note that EW, EA, Air Interdiction and A/SuW are all part of it. Kind of written for a certain Boeing product if we want to get cynical about it don't you think.
 

htbrst

Active Member
NZ could host Singapore's fighter jets at Ohakea - National - NZ Herald News

We talked about Singaporeans being based in Ohakea as an option for their training contract when it was due for renewal a few years ago - now they are testing the waters about F-15's being based there while they happen to have some over for the Air Tattoo.

While it may look that there are not that many RSAF F-15's to share around with a total of 24 in service (including 10 based in the USA) - the actual number of aircraft in service is more like 40, the actual number is unknown AFAIK
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Note that EW, EA, Air Interdiction and A/SuW are all part of it. Kind of written for a certain Boeing product if we want to get cynical about it don't you think.
The part that is not written for the P8 is the part which says. "1. The operational concept for the FASC in Defence will be largely a continuation of the extant P-3K2 Orion based concept, adapted to exploit any greater platform and capability systems performance of the FASC fleet and support systems." as I would consider the P8 as a new concept in MPA not a continuation of the existing concept.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
The part that is not written for the P8 is the part which says. "1. The operational concept for the FASC in Defence will be largely a continuation of the extant P-3K2 Orion based concept, adapted to exploit any greater platform and capability systems performance of the FASC fleet and support systems." as I would consider the P8 as a new concept in MPA not a continuation of the existing concept.
Really?

Sounds exactly like the evolution the FASC is after. Not a new concept at all and already the P-3K2 is evolving their Conops but you are obviously not aware of that.

But then again what else would we expect now ....
 
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gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Really?

Sounds exactly like the evolution the FASC is after. Not a new concept at all and already the P-3K2 is evolving their Conops but you are obviously not aware of that.
from all the material I've seen re P8 and P3 the transition is regarded as evolutionary - not new at all

in real terms its finessed the changes that all P3 and Atlantique operators went through post cold war - and has reinforced all the lessons learned from GW1 and GW2 re expansion of the ISR roles.

any new changes are about technology sets which have exponentially improved upon P3 legacy systems

the CONOPs etc have expanded, capability has improved resulting in more time being made available for specific crew to focus on other tasks. ie less workload effort and more crew effectiveness
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
Yes, I have just found the image.
Definitely not a SHornet. The rounded air intakes are from the B models
MB
Yes, it was a Classic Hornet, A21-102 (the other Classic Hornet present, which was a single-seater, was "39", presumably A21-39 of course). Here she is at the airshow here today (attached)!
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Really?

Sounds exactly like the evolution the FASC is after. Not a new concept at all and already the P-3K2 is evolving their Conops but you are obviously not aware of that.

But then again what else would we expect now ....
Many writers and commentators, far more august and knowledgeable than myself have said that the P8 is a new concept in the way it operates and the FASC say's what it say's. There is nothing new there. I try not to be emotionally tied up in the technology of this aircraft but look at it from a pragmatic point of view as to what may be selected and not allow myself to be emotionally tied to it. The DWP has said that there is a very low likelihood of a threat in our area (I don't hold by such forecasts myself) therefore the selection of the replacement aircraft may place more emphasis on it's day to day operations than more extreme op's. time will tell.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Many writers and commentators, far more august and knowledgeable than myself have said that the P8 is a new concept in the way it operates and the FASC say's what it say's. There is nothing new there. I try not to be emotionally tied up in the technology of this aircraft but look at it from a pragmatic point of view as to what may be selected and not allow myself to be emotionally tied to it. The DWP has said that there is a very low likelihood of a threat in our area (I don't hold by such forecasts myself) therefore the selection of the replacement aircraft may place more emphasis on it's day to day operations than more extreme op's. time will tell.
I would strongly suggest that you have a rethink considering that one of those who replied to you is very well versed in the capabilities of the P-3 / P-8 and the tactical and operational use of both platforms, especially because he has been involved in that work for many years and is briefed in on both the P-8 and F-35 programs amongst others. So I believe that he is far more knowledgeable about the subject than just about any other on here.

What you don't appear to understand, is that the whole game has changed and the govt, MOD and NZDF know that. That's what we have been trying to explain time and again. This is not the 1980s and now it is all about data and information and how to utilise it the best; getting the maximum utility from it and disseminating it quickly to the most appropriate warfighter. From where I sit the FASC requirements are written to acquire the platform that most meets NZs needs domestically and at the same time be able to integrate into a coalition / allied force with our closest allies / friends who are Australia and the US. That's what all western militaries are moving towards today; international coalition integration on all levels.

You need to look further than what the P-3B did because the P-3K2 is an evolution of that with the ISR, comms and computing fitout. The P-8 is yet another evolution taking maritime surveillance to the next level, because it has significant overland surveillance capabilities, EW, ELINT, some airspace surveillance capabilities, and other capabilities, but the most important capability it has is its ability to analyse the data from its sensors and then disseminate that to the appropriate warfighter(s) in real time. It uses the same OODA function as the F-35 and that is its greatest asset. The P-1 does not have anywhere near that level of capability and as has been explained previously on here, there could be significant problems integrating it into Australian - US C5 systems.

Modern platforms no longer can be one trick ponies such as the P-3B was. The platforms intrinsic capabilities in itself are no longer as important as its ability to be a force multiplier. They must be able to multirole and be flexible. For a small military like NZ that is doubly important and the govt is very aware of that.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Modern platforms no longer can be one trick ponies such as the P-3B was. The platforms intrinsic capabilities in itself are no longer as important as its ability to be a force multiplier. They must be able to multirole and be flexible. For a small military like NZ that is doubly important and the govt is very aware of that.
one of the sidebar benefits of an "as is" P8 is that its a defacto battlespace manager - its one of the things that get missed in the traditional platform analysis of something normally flagged for the airborne asw role.

thats a whole pile of different training vignettes that become available to the overall defence force, not just service benefits - and between anything running Link 16 and the other 5I's TADL sets - and that includes purple considerations

it would indeed be a shame if NZGovt/RNZAF selection gets driven by initial budget constraints

in real terms a P8 would be your first step into a real purple wrapper and purple battlespace manager even though thats not the primary job.

it reinforces the issue though of how everyone is looking at purple or cross platform capability response as opposed to niche platform response
 

Novascotiaboy

Active Member
I will play devils advocate and act the role of the politician left to digest the recent comments regarding P8.

"It is said that the P8 is a "battle space manager", but NZ has no direct threat, and NZ has no significant offensive combat capability so why would NZ need this type of aircraft to coordinate all these assets".

I believe Rob C has the right view of this process. The P8 is too much of an aircraft with all of its capabilities that support other systems that NZ never will have. The writing is on the wall if the reports are correct that Embraer has been asked to formulate a proposal using the E190-E2 platform as a FASC contender. NZDF lacks the depth in size; people, platforms, $$$$, to make the dramatic shift in operating process to make a P8 a viable option for NZ's typical requirements.
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I would strongly suggest that you have a rethink considering that one of those who replied to you is very well versed in the capabilities of the P-3 / P-8 and the tactical and operational use of both platforms, especially because he has been involved in that work for many years and is briefed in on both the P-8 and F-35 programs amongst others. So I believe that he is far more knowledgeable about the subject than just about any other on here.

What you don't appear to understand, is that the whole game has changed and the govt, MOD and NZDF know that. That's what we have been trying to explain time and again. This is not the 1980s and now it is all about data and information and how to utilise it the best; getting the maximum utility from it and disseminating it quickly to the most appropriate warfighter. From where I sit the FASC requirements are written to acquire the platform that most meets NZs needs domestically and at the same time be able to integrate into a coalition / allied force with our closest allies / friends who are Australia and the US. That's what all western militaries are moving towards today; international coalition integration on all levels.

You need to look further than what the P-3B did because the P-3K2 is an evolution of that with the ISR, comms and computing fitout. The P-8 is yet another evolution taking maritime surveillance to the next level, because it has significant overland surveillance capabilities, EW, ELINT, some airspace surveillance capabilities, and other capabilities, but the most important capability it has is its ability to analyse the data from its sensors and then disseminate that to the appropriate warfighter(s) in real time. It uses the same OODA function as the F-35 and that is its greatest asset. The P-1 does not have anywhere near that level of capability and as has been explained previously on here, there could be significant problems integrating it into Australian - US C5 systems.

Modern platforms no longer can be one trick ponies such as the P-3B was. The platforms intrinsic capabilities in itself are no longer as important as its ability to be a force multiplier. They must be able to multirole and be flexible. For a small military like NZ that is doubly important and the govt is very aware of that.
I acknowledge that many people on this site including your self and Mr C will have more technical knowledge than me on this subject, but I was not talking from a technical point of view, rather from a pragmatic point as to what would the air force need to carry out the tasks that the government wants it to do and how the government might view this.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I will play devils advocate and act the role of the politician left to digest the recent comments regarding P8.

"It is said that the P8 is a "battle space manager", but NZ has no direct threat, and NZ has no significant offensive combat capability so why would NZ need this type of aircraft to coordinate all these assets".
battlespace management is not just about force control when dealing with a threat - its significant strength is dual hat in HADR - something that NZ has extensive history in and a sympathetic involvement and self accepted responsibility with Australia in our region.

from your own response it shows that you are only focusing on warfighting roles - and the selection matrix that both our countries use in selecting platforms of this type includes dual hat roles

in NZ's case I suspect that the weighting they accord to this on their own assessment tools would be fractionally higher

NZ like Australia runs capability vignettes when they do a platform selection

There is a whole big table devoted solely to dual hat capabilities and scenarios...... and the assessment teams and the uniforms attack that with some verve as in tight budgets that can often be a key element in getting the support of the GOTD in signing off

In fact I know of times where the GOTD has sent teams packing to review their selection because some suit (acting on the not so subtle hint of the ministers team) decided that not enough effort was applied to considering the dual hat role with greater initial attention

btw, Canada does the same
 
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ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I acknowledge that many people on this site including your self and Mr C will have more technical knowledge than me on this subject, but I was not talking from a technical point of view, rather from a pragmatic point as to what would the air force need to carry out the tasks that the government wants it to do and how the government might view this.
To be very precise Mr C and I are taking it from the requirements that the government have stipulated in their publicly released documentation.We are not splitting hairs or arguing semantics. Nor do we like having to repeat ourselves ad nauseum, continuously rehashing old arguments. We are very aware of the political dimensions and how they impact upon NZ defence acquisitions. That is one of Mr C's areas of expertise, especially considering he has met with all of the previous Ministers of Defence for, IIRC, the 20 years.
 
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