Argentine navy future

[DefenseMedia]

Give 'em the money & they could fix what they've got, & build OPVs in Argentina. Some years ago they were all set to build several Fassmer 80 metre OPVs. Shipyard lined up, all ready to go - but Cristina didn't provide the money.

That was when the economy was booming.

There you have it: the essential problem isn't lack of ability to repair anything, or the government lacking money. It is the refusal of the government to pay for the armed forces. No money for spares, let alone new vessels.

Given the current government the point is agreed. Perhaps, depending on how much and quickly PRC would like to enter the SA markets, a small donation to the Argentine military of a couple of ships and perhaps jet fighters, probably smooths the road a bit.

Be interesting to see what sort of agreements or rights Beijing will insist upon prior. Another issue facing the Argentine armed forces, as with all militarizes globally, use of unmanned systems, many of which may be developed for commercial purposes, later modified for military uses. Small remotely operated platforms without crews, personnel costs universally are the largest burden on any defense budget. I am sure planners in Argentina are well aware.

 

[Vulcan]

Argentina is in informal discussions with the US over the potential sale of a surplus LSD of an unnamed type.

Argentina negotiating to buy second-hand US LSD | IHS Jane's 360

Had a crack at trying to guess what class but most of the recent LSDs are either in service, sunk, sold or scrapped. My brief search didn't indicate any which are just alongside.

 

[StingrayOZ]

Argentina is in informal discussions with the US over the potential sale of a surplus LSD of an unnamed type.

Argentina negotiating to buy second-hand US LSD | IHS Jane's 360

Had a crack at trying to guess what class but most of the recent LSDs are either in service, sunk, sold or scrapped. My brief search didn't indicate any which are just alongside.

I would imagine they would be after the Whidbey Island's. Good ships, recent modernisation, are likely to be sold/given away before they are completely knackered. They would be a good ship for pretty much any navy. Even if they had to wait a few years they would want to get in line now.

Somewhat skeptical of them getting them. I would imagine nations in the Asia pacific which are facing a much more complex threat would be gifted ahead of any sale to Argentina. I imagine the UK would have a lot to say about it as well.

 

[Vulcan]

I would imagine they would be after the Whidbey Island's. Good ships, recent modernisation, are likely to be sold/given away before they are completely knackered. They would be a good ship for pretty much any navy. Even if they had to wait a few years they would want to get in line now.

Thanks for the assist, I had assumed they weren't up for negotiation as they're still in service.

Somewhat skeptical of them getting them. I would imagine nations in the Asia pacific which are facing a much more complex threat would be gifted ahead of any sale to Argentina. I imagine the UK would have a lot to say about it as well.

It depends on the intentions those nations have of having any sort of capability to recapture any claimed islands in the first instance. I know Japan's creating that sort of capability, however do the likes of the Philippines or Vietnam have the money to fund a force capable of doing that?

Although other nations - such as Brazil - have invested in amphibious capability with no clear (IMO) reason for doing so.

As to the UK I'd agree, if anything comes from this I don't believe it'd happen before the election.

 

[swerve]

It's the only US LSD class available. All the previous classes have been sold, scrapped or sunk. The last Thomaston has been retired by Brazil, replaced by the French LPD Foudre - now Bahia. AFAIK there are some Austin class LPDs, but they're ancient.

If they can't get one, the Makassar class could be second choice. Peru's building two.

 

[Volkodav]

USN are looking to keep the LPD line going through ordering an extra hull before possibly/likely transitioning to a simpler variant to replace the LSDs. This would logically begin to free up Whidbey Islands for disposal / sale. Makes sense for the US to do this as the new ships will be more capable and likely cheaper to run, while the savings on SLEPS and other increased maintenance on the older platforms, as well as avoiding the loss of capability/experience in building amphibs will provide further savings to offset the cost of new ships.

 

[swerve]

I would imagine they would be after the Whidbey Island's. Good ships, recent modernisation, are likely to be sold/given away before they are completely knackered. They would be a good ship for pretty much any navy. Even if they had to wait a few years they would want to get in line now.

Somewhat skeptical of them getting them. I would imagine nations in the Asia pacific which are facing a much more complex threat would be gifted ahead of any sale to Argentina. I imagine the UK would have a lot to say about it as well.

But Asia-Pacific countries are mostly not in need of old ex-USN amphibs. Japan, S. Korea & Singapore build their own designs. Australia has a fairly new ex-RFA LSD & a new LHD with another on the way. Indonesia has five new Korean-designed LPDs, two locally built, & is building two more for the Philippines. Thailand has a new Singaporean LPD & a pair of locally-built LSTs.

So - do you mean Vietnam or Malaysia? The latter has been reported to be looking for a replacement for the lost Sri Inderapura, but it's gone nowhere in six years, with no sign of any attempt to buy retired ships from European navies which have become available in that time. Would Vietnam be interested? An LSD could be seen as a big target.

 

[StingrayOZ]

But Asia-Pacific countries are mostly not in need of old ex-USN amphibs. Japan, S. Korea & Singapore build their own designs. Australia has a fairly new ex-RFA LSD & a new LHD with another on the way. Indonesia has five new Korean-designed LPDs, two locally built, & is building two more for the Philippines. Thailand has a new Singaporean LPD & a pair of locally-built LSTs.

So - do you mean Vietnam or Malaysia? The latter has been reported to be looking for a replacement for the lost Sri Inderapura, but it's gone nowhere in six years, with no sign of any attempt to buy retired ships from European navies which have become available in that time. Would Vietnam be interested? An LSD could be seen as a big target.

I would imagine they would be interested. US equipment might come with some US support as well. Which is why the may have passed over EU stuff (and some of those were going to be gobbled up by Navies with serious budgets that would have put them out of the running).

While older ships, they would still be very useful and very seaworthy. They are also the sort of ships that would allow these navies to have a more complex relationship with the US. As for being a target, I don't think that is a deal breaker.

 

[swerve]

If Malaysia was interested, why hasn't it done anything about it? There are five Austin-class LPDs sitting in storage, which Malaysia has expressed no interest in at all. India bought one several years ago - but maybe India's experience with it has put Malaysia off.

The Malaysian navy has no steam ships, & hasn't had any for many years. The necessary infrastructure would be quite a burden, far outweighing the value of any US support. This is probably a major factor in the general lack of interest in the Austin class among navies in search of amphibious ships. "What sort of diesels does it have? Steam turbines? Stop wasting my time!".

The Whidbey Island class hasn't yet been offered for sale, AFAIK, & there's talk of them being kept in service for many years to come.

Malaysia's best bet is probably either the Makassar class (same price last year as the Austin sold to India in 2007 cost, & much cheaper to run), or one (or even two) of the Santi when they come on the market. Well, unless it can overcome its prejudices & buy from Singapore, or cough up the cash for a new European ship.

 

[StingrayOZ]

If Malaysia was interested, why hasn't it done anything about it? There are five Austin-class LPDs sitting in storage, which Malaysia has expressed no interest in at all. India bought one several years ago - but maybe India's experience with it has put Malaysia off.

I'm not sure Malaysia is overtly interested.

But the US Would probably prefer a gift to a lot of other nations ahead of Argentina. Or as pointed out, just keep them. Or sink/sell for scrap.

I think Vietnam would be a better bet. I guess with a heavy support burden, the USN would be a common sight at Cam Rahn, err helping them. Vietnam might entertain a lot of possibilities. The platform isn't as important as the relationship that might be developed.

Argentina could purchase something from other nations. But I think they are after a complete US care package, including a recently refurbished ship, equipment, training, maybe some cash to get the whole thing going.

 

[ngatimozart]

I'm not sure Malaysia is overtly interested.

But the US Would probably prefer a gift to a lot of other nations ahead of Argentina. Or as pointed out, just keep them. Or sink/sell for scrap.

I think Vietnam would be a better bet. I guess with a heavy support burden, the USN would be a common sight at Cam Rahn, err helping them. Vietnam might entertain a lot of possibilities. The platform isn't as important as the relationship that might be developed.

Argentina could purchase something from other nations. But I think they are after a complete US care package, including a recently refurbished ship, equipment, training, maybe some cash to get the whole thing going.

There is no real strategic or political reason for the US to invest money and resources in Argentina at the moment. If they need access to the area they have a better relationship with Chile which appears to be more stable. There is also the issue of the US companies that lost billions with the Argentine economic collapse and govt bankruptcy. They would raise problems with Congress. This would only become a geopolitical issue if china or Russia managed to obtain a foothold in Argentina and neither appear very interested at the moment.

 

[swerve]

Well yes.

And the point which I've brought up, but which doesn't seem to be being taken into account, i.e. that the supply of ex-USN amphibs that anyone wants seems to have dried up.

The Austin class hasn't had any takers except India in 2007, & the Indian experience of taking one into service was unhappy. They're expensive to run & with the cost of refurbishment to make them fit for use, not really cheaper to buy than a new Korean or Indonesian/Korean LPD, which is much more reliable as well as cheaper to run.

The Whidbey Island class is a better bet, but none has been offered for sale yet, & it's uncertain whether any will be, or whether they'll all be kept by the USN.

 

[StingrayOZ]

The Austin class hasn't had any takers except India in 2007, & the Indian experience of taking one into service was unhappy. They're expensive to run & with the cost of refurbishment to make them fit for use, not really cheaper to buy than a new Korean or Indonesian/Korean LPD, which is much more reliable as well as cheaper to run.

Which is why I don't think Argentina will get them and in the end the US will most likely keep them and then sink/razor blade them. If Argentina was serious they would have made some money available and go shopping internationally (Indonesia, Korea, China, ex western European etc) - Looking at everything from proper military amphibs to some sort of adapted civilian vessel. The operational costs will be far above the purchase price for Argentina. This is just like the F-5's. They are looking for items and a support package. It seems they dont want to buy anything with hard currency.

Of course the back drop is they might try to use whatever they get to hassle the British. Something no one seems interested in as there is a lot more stuff happening in Asia pacific/Middle east/Eastern Europe/Africa.

Argentina should just pony up real money and get something that is viable long term. The ships you have mentioned aren't even that expensive, and would be doable. $30-$40m for a ship they would probably keep for the next 40-50 years.

 

[Novascotiaboy]

Multiple news outlets reporting on the loss of communications with ARA San Juan in the South Atlantic.

Given the economic realities facing Argentina it is doubtful that they have a submarine rescue capability. Is it likely to see NATO offer up its capabilities?

 

[DaveS124]

Is it likely to see NATO offer up its capabilities

Nato? Not as such, no.

Assets from US, UK, Chile and Brazil have deployed to assist, including a submarine rescue ship from the latter.

Reports several hours ago stated it had been located at 70m depth, but there was no confirmation. Weather isn't helping - waves up to 20ft in the search area - and wind not abating for another 20 or so hours.

All very nasty stuff, and good luck to all.

 

[kato]

Reports several hours ago stated it had been located at 70m depth, but there was no confirmation.

Given the entire search quadrant has between 700 and 5000m depth...

 

[StobieWan]

It's a small and common community - when the Kursk went down, I think every sub operator with a rescue capability span their teams up (I believe the UK team issued orders to pack, then rang for permission to do so from HMG)

Same again when smaller submersible became entangled in cables in Russia a few years earlier.

If the depth of the water is 500+ then that will greatly complicate matters however- if the Argentinians don't accept US aid, they're mad (it'd be nice if a UK team were permitted to assist but I suspect that'd be too bitter a pill to swallow)

Fingers crossed for the crew and their families at this time.

EDIT ; HMS Protector is in the search:

https://modmedia.blog.gov.uk/2017/11/19/defence-in-the-media-19-november-2017/

 

[Blackshoe]

It's a small and common community - when the Kursk went down, I think every sub operator with a rescue capability span their teams up (I believe the UK team issued orders to pack, then rang for permission to do so from HMG)

Same again when smaller submersible became entangled in cables in Russia a few years earlier.

If the depth of the water is 500+ then that will greatly complicate matters however- if the Argentinians don't accept US aid, they're mad (it'd be nice if a UK team were permitted to assist but I suspect that'd be too bitter a pill to swallow)

Fingers crossed for the crew and their families at this time.

EDIT ; HMS Protector is in the search:

https://modmedia.blog.gov.uk/2017/11/19/defence-in-the-media-19-november-2017/

This whole story has been weird, since I posted in odds and sods with it looking like the sub had been repaired and was returning to port, to now it's not. Not looking good, and I suspect there will be political fallout if the worst happens.

 

[aussienscale]

Given the entire search quadrant has between 700 and 5000m depth...

Can be possible, depending on what has happened to the Sub and the circumstances it can maintain neutral buoyancy and be stuck at a certain depth and may not have sunk to the bottom. But 70m would be a level that they could use their suits to escape, depending on type, some suits are viable at depths of 150m+

Either way not sounding very good at all.

Time will tell

 

[FormerDirtDart]

From Associated Press article:
Argentina analyzing sounds in search for missing submarine

"MAR DEL PLATA, Argentina (AP) — Experts are analyzing sounds that might have come from an Argentine submarine lost for five days with 44 crew members on board, the country’s navy said Monday.

Spokesman Enrique Balbi told reporters that a U.S. Navy P-8 Poseidon aircraft was dispatched to check an area where the noise was heard by two Argentine navy ships to help in the effort to isolate the source of the sounds.

The “noise” was heard in the South Atlantic about 220 miles (360 kilometers) from the Argentine coast and at a depth of about 650 feet (200 meters), Balbi said.


A U.S. Navy official familiar with the search cautioned that it was unclear whether the Argentines described the sound as something similar to tools being banged against the hull of a submarine as was previously reported. The source spoke on condition of anonymity because the information about the sounds comes from the Argentine government.

The ARA San Juan went missing Wednesday as it sailed from the extreme southern port of Ushuaia to the coastal city of Mar del Plata. More than a dozen international vessels and aircraft have joined the search, which has been hindered by stormy weather that has caused waves up to 20 feet (6 meters). ..."

The article also include a short video, appearing to be shot from the bridge, of the destroyer ARA Sarandi operating under the stormy conditions described above.