Argentine navy future

[kilo]

I think the most important thing for argentina to do right now is arm their air force and naval aviation. They should try and buy more exocets for their SEs and try to purchase harpoons for there P-3s and guided bombs for their A-4ARs.
they could also cut maintenance costs by getting rid of their more redundant aircraft like the mirages.

 

[swerve]

...
they could also cut maintenance costs by getting rid of their more redundant aircraft like the mirages.

Without the Mirages, Argentina has no air defence except subsonic A-4AR. Is that wise?

 

[kilo]

How much air defence do you think the mirages provide? Saving money to buy new radars and fighters should be a priority for Argentina.

 

[swerve]

How much air defence do you think the mirages provide? Saving money to buy new radars and fighters should be a priority for Argentina.

Not much, but at present it's all they have. Completely removing a capability in order to save money so you can reinstate it at a non-specified future date is a very odd way to go about things. Surely it'd be better to replace the Mirages ASAP with something more capable, enabling current pilots & ground crew to transition to a new type, rather than scrapping the lot & having to rebuild, years in the future? More than just aircraft would be lost if all the supersonic jets were scrapped. Experience, institutional memory, would also be lost - and that's harder & slower to replace than hardware.

BTW, Argentina is flush with cash at the moment, due to high commodity prices & booming exports. If the government would stop shooting itself in the foot economically, it'd have even more. It could afford to replace the Mirages right now.

 

[contedicavour]

Not much, but at present it's all they have. Completely removing a capability in order to save money so you can reinstate it at a non-specified future date is a very odd way to go about things. Surely it'd be better to replace the Mirages ASAP with something more capable, enabling current pilots & ground crew to transition to a new type, rather than scrapping the lot & having to rebuild, years in the future? More than just aircraft would be lost if all the supersonic jets were scrapped. Experience, institutional memory, would also be lost - and that's harder & slower to replace than hardware.

BTW, Argentina is flush with cash at the moment, due to high commodity prices & booming exports. If the government would stop shooting itself in the foot economically, it'd have even more. It could afford to replace the Mirages right now.

Indeed. By the way it's strange that Dassault and the French govt aren't particularly pushing Argentina at the moment to buy Rafale. All focus is on Brazil which took off the shelf a dozen second hand Mirage 2000 with a potential Rafale buy later on.
If Argentina doesn't buy a French replacement for its Mirage, since the Typhoon would probably be vetoed by the UK, then all that is left if a F16 or F18 deal, especially now that Chile has Amraam on its F16s... Sooo if Mrs Kirchner's government gradually comes closer to the US (and stops getting closer to Chavez like her husband's previous government) then we might see US planes arrive.

cheers

 

[contedicavour]

Unless of course they go Russian and buy SU30s but that would be a serious insult towards the US and I don't see Argentina going in that direction now.

cheers

 

[Sea Toby]

When the JSF production lines increase in the future, there are going to be many left over USAF F-16s flooding the used marketplace. It will fulfill the used buyers dream. Hundreds of aircraft for a fire sale price. When this happens in the near future, don't expect too many sales of new aircraft, expecially in Latin America. The A-4s and F-5s will finally die a paupers death.

Again, I am commentating about aircraft on a naval discussion board. After the Falklands defeat, Malvinis, its been hard times for the Argentine military. The next time they will see a light carrier again is when the current new LHDs being built abroad become available thirty-forty years from now.

None of the nations of Latin America are building new ships outside of OPVs, they continue to grab used ships, whether frigates, oilers, and/or landing ships. The only new ships being built are small submarines, with only a few of them being bought. They would buy old submarines if they weren't used up if they could. Unfortunately, for Latin America, not many European nations sell their submarines as quickly as they sell their frigates when down sizing their navies.

 

[ROCK45]

Chile

I thought Chile didn't get the Amraam it was a Israeli setup HMS Python IV & Derby? I did a little quick searching and didn't see anywhere that AMRAAMs were delivered. The tech is built in to use them I just don't think any were delivered. Some one may have more updated information, its possible by now that they may have bought them. A friend from another forum mention to me that the Chilean Vipers aren't anti-radar missile capable and that the Poland Vipers are more advance? Can some one explain why Chile's Vipers can't launch anti-radar missiles isn't just a software issue? Thanks

A QUOTE FROM F16net it maybe old
It recently became clear that the Chilean vipers would be equipped with Israeli Python 4 and Derby missiles as well as AMRAAM and JDAM. Furthermore the Chilean F-16s will lack the standard TACAN system because there is no use to it in South America.

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_users_article9.html

Argentina
Subs are very costly and replacing the older types of aircraft for basic territory defense should come first. I can't see why Brazil wants to go down that path either. Brazil's navy must have a lot of pull in there country. Argentina's air force had there A-4 service or slightly upgraded years back and since then nothing for there air force. Basically ex-Holland F-16 A/b that were upgraded would be better then what they have and I think Rafale's at around $90/$100 million per might be out of there range. Used fighter might be there route because any brand new 4th generation fighter will cost at least $70 million per and higher with service contracts, weapons package, goodies,etc.

 

[contedicavour]

The US ended up providing AIM120 to Chile because otherwise they would have bought other planes, such as MICA-equipped Rafale or eventually Meteor-equipped Gripen... Chile is one of the rare countries in Latin American with enough defence budget to buy brand new fighters.

Regarding Argentina's Armada, I would expect it to start buying used frigates in the next wave of decommissionings, the German Bremen, Italian Maestrale or the French Leygues. Eventually even some OHPs if the government starts getting closer to the US.

cheers

 

[Sea Toby]

While Venezuela oil wealth has been able to buy new warships and aircraft, most of the rest of Latin America have not. While Chile was thinking in terms of building new frigates, they opted to buy used frigates again.

This concept that any Latin American nation is going to build sophisticated submarines and/or destroyers is beyond my grasp. First one would have to develop a military industrial complex, keep the technical personnel employed for the long term, before generating designs, much less affording the vast expensive items. All of these nations are having enough difficulty affording the armed forces alone, none are in the position today of affording a military industrial complex.

Australia has been working on this since WW II, literally sixty years, and still they opted to build their new LHD hulls in Spain. You need to crawl before you can walk. Talk is just talk.

Look what has happened in the past with the Argentine corvette program. The shipyard went bankrupt, all those technical jobs lost.
Its the same with the Brazilian corvettes. Neither nation has been able to afford development of their own submarines, much less SUSTAIN their employees. They buy and build European designed submarines. And quickly, the shipyards lay off their technical personnel.

 

[contedicavour]

While Venezuela oil wealth has been able to buy new warships and aircraft, most of the rest of Latin America have not. While Chile was thinking in terms of building new frigates, they opted to buy used frigates again.

This concept that any Latin American nation is going to build sophisticated submarines and/or destroyers is beyond my grasp. First one would have to develop a military industrial complex, keep the technical personnel employed for the long term, before generating designs, much less affording the vast expensive items. All of these nations are having enough difficulty affording the armed forces alone, none are in the position today of affording a military industrial complex.

Australia has been working on this since WW II, literally sixty years, and still they opted to build their new LHD hulls in Spain. You need to crawl before you can walk. Talk is just talk.

Look what has happened in the past with the Argentine corvette program. The shipyard went bankrupt, all those technical jobs lost.
Its the same with the Brazilian corvettes. Neither nation has been able to afford development of their own submarines, much less SUSTAIN their employees. They buy and build European designed submarines. And quickly, the shipyards lay off their technical personnel.

I would recommand separating the military needs from the industrial needs of Latin American countries. The armed forces should formulate requirements in line with what their politicians deem useful, not on the base of what local industry can develop. On the other hand, their defence industries should specialize in areas where they can grow scale by exporting. Brazil's Embraer is an example of a successful Latin American country growing outside its borders, and not needing massive support from the local armed forces' budgets.
In the naval environment, the Brazilians are building their own SSKs even if with considerable help from Germany. Argentina did the same when it had the money. Chile develops and builds its own OPVs and so does Mexico. Of course I don't expect them to start building DDGs as a next step, still some local capability exists and could be boosted. An example ? Mexico could export some of its successful OPVHs to other Latin American or Asian countries.

cheers

 

[swerve]

While Venezuela oil wealth has been able to buy new warships and aircraft, most of the rest of Latin America have not. While Chile was thinking in terms of building new frigates, they opted to buy used frigates again.

This concept that any Latin American nation is going to build sophisticated submarines and/or destroyers is beyond my grasp. First one would have to develop a military industrial complex, keep the technical personnel employed for the long term, before generating designs, much less affording the vast expensive items. All of these nations are having enough difficulty affording the armed forces alone, none are in the position today of affording a military industrial complex.

Australia has been working on this since WW II, literally sixty years, and still they opted to build their new LHD hulls in Spain. You need to crawl before you can walk. Talk is just talk.

Look what has happened in the past with the Argentine corvette program. The shipyard went bankrupt, all those technical jobs lost.
Its the same with the Brazilian corvettes. Neither nation has been able to afford development of their own submarines, much less SUSTAIN their employees. They buy and build European designed submarines. And quickly, the shipyards lay off their technical personnel.

With Brazil, the problem is purchasing policy. Brazil has the industry, economy & technology to support most kinds of weapons developments, but has not so far spent the money on domestic arms procurement consistently enough. The effect on even those areas where Brazilian military industries have been successful in the past (e.g. Engesa, which went bust when the Brazilian govt. pulled the plug on army orders at the same time as foreign sales dried up) has led to Brazilian firms being very wary of becoming too dependent on their own government. Embraer has thrived by building up a diversified portfolio of civil aircraft & selling them widely, so that sales to the FAB are jam, not bread and butter.

 

[RobWilliams]

Janes is reporting that Argentinian media is claiming that CFK is expected to sign a contract with China to purchase 5 P-18 OPVs (or corvettes?) from the China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation. These are export variants of the Type 056 corvette currently in service with the PLAN.

China, Argentina set for defence collaboration, Malvinas-class OPV deal - IHS Jane's 360

According to the rumours they will be called the Malvinas class.

The details of the platforms that have been reported are as follows

• 1800t
• 95m long
• 12m wide
• 25kt speed
  [*[76mm main gun
• 2 x 30mm guns
• 8 AShMs
• 2 triple ASW tubes
• 1 x medium helo
• Reportedly a lengthened flight deck to allow Sea King ASW operations and the addition of a towed sonar array.

 

[kev 99]

Interesting development, quite a leap in capability if true. Interesting name, never miss an excuse do they....

 

[RobWilliams]

Interesting development, quite a leap in capability if true. Interesting name, never miss an excuse do they....

In Chinese service, the Type 056 has a vSHORAD capability with 8 shots which seems to be omitted on the proposed Argentinian ships in the report. Looking at base Wiki stats (I know), the ship proposed in the report is heavier, longer, wider and slower.

Sooner have an OPV/corvette named the Malvinas compare to an FFG/DDG.

 

[harryriedl]

Interesting I imagine this is either an replacement for the MEKO's or their French Avios(both of which they cannot effectively maintain or operate) surprised the wasn't an anti air missiles on that spec considering that its fitted AShM. pretty good value $330 million for 8(rough calculation $42 million x8 as that what Nigeria paid)

A interesting choice showing the great weakness of Argentina as from the report it seems that everything is going to be china built.(the waste of money on the repair of Adm Iriza seems evident and their own OPV's program now seem dead. The fact its china allows to pay on credit or more likely commodities on a class which though looking modern seems step down on the existing classes in service and the fact that according to the arctical China will be building the rest of the fleet is extremely interesting as it shows how utterly dependent on China Argentina is.

 

[RobWilliams]

I'd say the same, their 9 strong corvette fleet is usually reported in being a bad state with respect to maintenance and days at sea.

It might end up being FFBNW AShMs ultimately, that or inaccurate rerporting perhaps.

Janes reports that Brazilian media claims the deal could be for 2 Chinese built and 3 built in Argentina.

 

[StobieWan]

95 metres seems short for a proper ASW platform with a towed array and so forth - I wonder how much of this is aspirational kit?

 

[harryriedl]

95 metres seems short for a proper ASW platform with a towed array and so forth - I wonder how much of this is aspirational kit?

It could be one of those basic towed arrays which some Russian FAC's were fitted with rather than a full fat towed array. I would have thought it would be pretty basic as their is only so much warship you can get at this low end. Long term maintenance will be fun as well considering they can barely operate their MEKO's and D'Estienne d'Orves class

 

[swerve]

Give 'em the money & they could fix what they've got, & build OPVs in Argentina. Some years ago they were all set to build several Fassmer 80 metre OPVs. Shipyard lined up, all ready to go - but Cristina didn't provide the money.

That was when the economy was booming.

There you have it: the essential problem isn't lack of ability to repair anything, or the government lacking money. It is the refusal of the government to pay for the armed forces. No money for spares, let alone new vessels.