The Indonesian Army

[bdique]

Anyway;
Some more picture of possible design of PINDAD medium tank (collaboration with turkish FNSS), come out in local on line media. Pindad it self already mentioned in local media that they are narrowing the 105 mm gun system turret to Cockeril, Denel, and Oto Melara design, whille sourcing the engine to French or German ones.

They hope to get the prototype rolling by 2016. The weight should be on 30+ ton class. This hope will be the back bone of Indonesian Army Tank fleet, as the Leo 2, seems more and more will be focused on Industrialized/Urbanized Java island or Bali and Sumatra that practically those islands have much better infrastructure than other Indonesian islands.

Well I do hope this medium tank project works out. Indonesia has long borders, and lots of territory to defend. While the medium tank with its 105mm may not be a match for most MBTs, it should be more than enough for bunkers, crew served weapons, technicals and even other IFVs. In that sense, the medium tank should suit TNI-AD's COIN/LIC needs well.

Also, is it me or is that two co-axials?

 

[Ananda]

Well I do hope this medium tank project works out. Indonesia has long borders, and lots of territory to defend. While the medium tank with its 105mm may not be a match for most MBTs, it should be more than enough for bunkers, crew served weapons, technicals and even other IFVs.

True, the project never been intended for MBT, that part will be taken care by Leo 2. Speaking with, 24 of the first batch (asside 2 that already in Indonesia for trial purpose) already on the way and expected to docked in Indonesia by end of this month. Those first batch is standard Leo 2-A4, which will have additional fitted out on Air Condition system and communications systems in Pindad facility.

Speaking of Pindad, there are some photos in Tempo on line showing activities on Pindad doing their AMX-13 upgrade projects, Anoa facilities, and Pindad latest 4x4 called Komodo.

Melihat Perakitan Kendaraan Tempur PT Pindad 2 | -foto- | Tempo.co

 

[bdique]

True, the project never been intended for MBT, that part will be taken care by Leo 2. Speaking with, 24 of the first batch (asside 2 that already in Indonesia for trial purpose) already on the way and expected to docked in Indonesia by end of this month. Those first batch is standard Leo 2-A4, which will have additional fitted out on Air Condition system and communications systems in Pindad facility.

First job for Pindad: make sure the air conditioning is modified, because there is no winter in South East Asia

 

[Ananda]

1st Batch of 24 Leoprad A4 and 26 Marder A6, arrived in Jakarta Port two days ago. This first Batch from what the Army stated will be part of 2 Cavalry batallion of KOSTRAD.

[Gallery] Welcome To Your New Home... Leo...!!

The Picture from ARC website, and more picture can be found there.

 

[Ananda]

Quite surprising new ARMY inventory come to Jakarta recently. It's M-113, surprising since no hint or only just whisper on possible acquisition of M-113. From ARC website (where the pictures originated) and some other sources, the acquisition on this vehicle due to:

(*) The Army changing doctrine on Infantry, in which many of existing Infantry batalions will be converted to Mechanised Infantry batalions.
(*) Those Mech-Infantry Btlns will be primary equiped by Anoa APC, and other that can not be Equiped by Anoa yet, will be equiped by AMX-VCI.
(*) However seems the deteriorating conditions of AMX-VCI already reached point that, further modification on them considered too expensive, compared with acquisition on surplus APC from Western Armies.

For that, the acquisition for those M-113 come in play. Seems those M-113come from US Army surpluses. Will be seen how much in the end total acquisitions will be.

 

[Ananda]

Ujian Pertama si Gavin

An article from ARC website, considering the development of M-133 in TNI-AD. This website, has quite close relationship with TNI, thus usually what they put in the website show much accuracy.

The article confirm that the acquisition of M-113, as like Marder from Germany is to boost the formation of Mechanised Infantry Batalions. Those batalions, will be equiped with Anoa, Marder and M-113. Thus confirm the speculations, that those second hand Marder and M-113 being procured to fill the gap due to shortage supply of Anoa (plus off course those second ahnd Marder and M-113 is cheaper than newly build Anoa).

Those M-113 from the article expected being procured up to 80, from Belgium (not from US Army surpluses like I mentioned from previous post). According to the article, the Army choose to procured ex Belgium, due to relatively newer (for Surplus asset) as most come from the 80's. Also relative low usage by Belgium (for NATO standard), and excelent maintanance in Belgium Army, put them on better conditions (compared to other surpluses M-113).

Some speculation suggested that Cockerill has a hand on this deal, due to their increasing project with Pindad.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Thank you for the info Ananda!! ^^

 

[Ananda]

From Local Forum (Credit to id Jhatiex at Kaskus Forum), latest pictures on AMX-13 Pindad Retrofit, on current Indodefence in Jakarta. The pictures show new sideskirt and additional armour on the 105 mm turret.

Officialy Pindad has contract to retrofit 20+ AMX 13 to this configuration. No additional info on the progress of Retrofit project after this. With Pindad set with their Medium Tank project with Turkish FNSS, question remain on what the purpose on this Retrofit AMX-13 in the future.

For me I'm speculating at least 1 batalions or up to 50+ AMX-13 retrofit will still be completed. Just for further Manufacturing exercises by Pindad to enhance their capabilities before focus on Medium Tank projects with FNSS.

 

[Ananda]

From Jane's, on Local company's Scout and Recce 4x4 called P2 and P4. This vehicle prototypes already come out around a decade ago. However no quantities production yet. However according Jane's the company claimed in Indodefence that they already finished trial/prototype stages, and will begin quantity production.

The other photo's from local forum (credit to id john.hughes), on Pindad prototype for MLRS. However, I believe those still far from production stages, and still need more development.

Armoured vehicles fit for many missions [ID14D2] - IHS Jane's 360

 

[Ananda]

Rheinmetall has also received a contract from the Indonesian Government to supply simulation technology for the training of Indonesian Leopard 2A4 main battle tank crew.

The multi-million contract requires the company to supply the leopard gunnery skills trainer (LGST) and driver training simulator (DTS).

Featuring Rheinmetall's TacSi technology, the simulators can be networked to enable tactical training at platoon and company level, and share similarities with the systems that have already proven highly effective in day-to-day military training operations.

Rheinmetall to supply wargaming simulation training systems to MENA customers - Army Technology

Further supporting infrastucture for Leoprad 2 operation with TNI-AD. Despite with some opposition from 'old' traditionalist thingking from senior 'ex' generals and some politicians, the Leoprads 2 infrastructure keep coming and increasingly good to stay with Indonesian Army.

Additional link on the Rheinmetall system

http://www.miltechmag.com/2014/12/iitsec-2014-rheinmetall-to-supply.html

 

[bdique]

Rheinmetall to supply wargaming simulation training systems to MENA customers - Army Technology

Further supporting infrastucture for Leoprad 2 operation with TNI-AD. Despite with some opposition from 'old' traditionalist thingking from senior 'ex' generals and some politicians, the Leoprads 2 infrastructure keep coming and increasingly good to stay with Indonesian Army.

Additional link on the Rheinmetall system

MILITARY TECHNOLOGY: I/ITSEC 2014: Rheinmetall to Supply the Indonesia Army with LEOPARD 2 Simulators

Good for the TNI-AD. Simulator training may not be the same as actual training in a vehicle, but it sharpens a lot of skills i.e. drills, gunnery without hurting the wallet. Time is better spent on more complex training curriculum, and not honing fundamentals. Also, when gunnery skills are improved, living firing training will be less of a waste of ammo.

I cannot understand why there would even be opposition to such a good development.

 

[Ananda]

I cannot understand why there would even be opposition to such a good development.

Some political faction 'butthurt' (sorry the language, but sometimes has to be said to showtheir behaviour), still show their grudges since their choosen MBT (thus their potential commission) has been side step by Leopard 2 procurement.

They still try to get their choosen MBT project got through. Knowing the Army are more determined to secured and maintained their Leo 2..they are know trying to open Idea another MBT procurement for the Marines..like I said..'butthurt'...

 

[DavidDCM]

I really wonder how the Army will handle the blurring line between the new Mechanized Infantry and the old Cavallery and how these two are supposed to interact on an operational level.
The Mechanized Infantry organisation is almost identical to the cavallery "Serbu"-battalions.

 

[tonnyc]

I really wonder how the Army will handle the blurring line between the new Mechanized Infantry and the old Cavallery and how these two are supposed to interact on an operational level.
The Mechanized Infantry organisation is almost identical to the cavallery "Serbu"-battalions.

Well, mechanized infantry units will get APC and IFV while cavalry units will get the tanks. At the moment things are blurry, but I notice that every few months there will be some little news about Scorpion tanks getting shifted or such unit getting Anoa or M113. It seems to dovetail the arrival of new equipments. So you end up with a few units already following the new updated organization and many old ones still following the old style organization.

I don't know enough to be able to tell you anything about their intended operational doctrine.

 

[STURM]

Ananda,

Do you know which specific units in East and North Kalimantan have received or are going to receive the Scorpion and Anoa?

Prior to the announcement that Scorpions and Anoas would be based in Kalimantan; what TNI-AD armoured vehicles were operated there?

From what I can gather, the cavalry unit based in East Kalimantan is the 13/Satya Lembuswana but off course there could be others. Any indication yet if any of the infantry battalions based in East and North Kalimantan will be converted to mechanised units?

Thank you.

 

[Ananda]

Been a while, got some picture from local website arc. Pictures of mock-up of pindad and turkish fnss medium tank project. This is not final design, but from arc website it's clear that the medium tank will be around 30 - 40 tons and most certain will used CMI Turret of 105 mm gun.

ARCinc.ID - Inilah Desain Sementara Medium Tank Pindad-FNSS

 

[Alkyonios]

You're not anwering my question :]. Let me re-phrase it: how sure are you that point defence systems will not have to deal with low level fighters? And who can say for certain that there will not be instances of Su-30s or F-16s [or similar fighters] having to use unguided rockets or dumb bombs; in which case they would be well within range of stuff like Grom and RBS-70?

Criuse missiles are intended to be dealt with by longer range, more networked, more capable stuff. MANPADs are intended to be point defence weapons to deal with whatever targets they are faced with that ideally are flying below 10,000 feet, be it UAVs, helicopters or fighters and are intended to supplement whatever other AD weapons are in place as part of a layered defence. I understand the logic in not procuring several types of MANPADS but I'm also pointing out that there might be instances where MANPADs will be faced woth targets other than helicopters, prop powered aircraft and UAVs. Several Top Tier armies - despite having more capable, longer range AD weapons - still employ MANPADS and I doubt very much if these MANPADS are not intended to also deal with low flying fighters that get past other systems.

As you say, MANPADS are good and versatile against lower level of air threats, but anything above 3000 meters has to be dealt with other types of systems. Patriot medium- to high range and THAAD to high level defence.

 

[Ananda]

From Pindad twitter site. The Picture taken during life firing trials of Indonesian Leo 2 A4 Revo at Rheinmettal facility in Germany. As mentioned before, Indonesia bought 54 unmodernised A4, and 64 modernised A4 on Leo2 Revo packages.

The inclusion of Pindad in trial indicated potential Pindad involvement on possible next stage of Revo upgrading packages on current unmodernised 54 Leo2 A4.

 

[DavidDCM]

So, the tanks will apparently only receive the upgraded armour, not the FCS and APS of the full Revolution package.

Ananda,

Do you know which specific units in East and North Kalimantan have received or are going to receive the Scorpion and Anoa?

Prior to the announcement that Scorpions and Anoas would be based in Kalimantan; what TNI-AD armoured vehicles were operated there?

From what I can gather, the cavalry unit based in East Kalimantan is the 13/Satya Lembuswana but off course there could be others. Any indication yet if any of the infantry battalions based in East and North Kalimantan will be converted to mechanised units?

Thank you.

It has been a while, sorry for not seeing this post.

TNI armour is Denkav 1 in Kaltim and Denkav 2 in Kalbar. Each consists of one tracked company (AMX-13, AMX-VCI) and one wheeled company (Saladin, BTR-40, Ferret).

Denkav 1 was elevated to full battalion strength and renamed Yonkav 13 last year. Process still ongoing, no news on Scorpions and Stormers.

Denkav 2 is slated to get the same treatment. Will be renamed Yonkav 12.

Edit: Additionally, one infantry battalion each in Kalbar and Kalsel are being upgraded to mechanized infantry and are in the process of being equipped with Anoa APC's.

 

[Ananda]

So, the tanks will apparently only receive the upgraded armour, not the FCS and APS of the full Revolution package.

Last year, the then Deputy Defense Minister General Syafrie (which in photo thus still appreantly involved with the overall completion on Leo 2 project although is not as deputy minister post), put statement that some of sub system on Leo 2 projects will be done locally in Pindad with Rheinmettal assistance.

On the other hand, some comments on media mentioned not all revo packages will be implemented initially. Thus potential the several portions of Revo Packages upgrades will be 'wired but not equiped yet'..