The Indonesian Army

[tonnyc]

Just to clarify, my understanding of the 400/3XX + tanks does not refer to Leopard 2 or MBT. Rather it is just an overall planning number, which can be and is supposed to be met by a combination of Medium Tank and Leopard 2. There does not seem to be further plans for additional acquisitions and the possibility appears low for now.

If you take a look at the attached photo, you will find that the plan did specify 398 Leopard 2. The title of the slide says MBT Leopard. Admittedly it didn't actually say whether it's Leopard 1 or 2, but the actual negotiation is specifically for Leopard 2.

The photo was supposedly taken during a Pussenkav (Cavalry Weaponry Center) presentation in 2011. At the time they already downselected the Leopard 2 out of the usual candidates.

Of course, just because the cavalry wants that many MBT doesn't mean that they will get them. You are correct in that there is currently no plan on getting more and that the probability of further acquisition in the near future is low.

 

[Ananda]

@tonnyc..Average 2 armoured batalions on major Island (outside Java), I believe still achievable..as long as those armoured batalions not MBT equiped.

Mobile infantry batalions, are in progress being build on outside Java districts commands. That's why I believe, despite the influx of newly build Anoa, those old Vickers Saladin, Saracens, and V-150 still being maintained and moved outside Java, with AMX families that already can be spared. For that the Army still conducting upgraded of their old armoured vehicles, so they can get quantities they aimed.

@Volkodav, I can't speculated much on what the MBT's role in the end on the TNI-AD operational environment. The doctrine still being tried. So, your speculation still potentially one of the outcomes. Read on the M-48 and M-60 operations in Vietnam, it can be those MBT being used in supporting infantry on heaviest engagement (which the light tanks is more vulnerable).

 

[Volkodav]

Yes if you want to support your infantry an MBT is best, it will draw enemy fire so needs to be tough to survive as well as powerful to engage as well.

Two battalions on each of the major islands makes sense, I suppose I have a more continental view point but logistically I see the point now. Two separate forces because they are separated by geography.

 

[STURM]

Read on the M-48 and M-60 operations in Vietnam, it can be those MBT being used in supporting infantry on heaviest engagement (which the light tanks is more vulnerable).

Ananda, I know we've had this discussion before but a lot will also depend on the terrain . Even with engineering support I think there will be areas where it would make more sense to deploy vehicles that are lighter and smaller than the Leopard 2 but then off course it will also depend on the threat level.

Do you know which exact units operate the V-150, Saladin, Saracen, Stormer and Scorpions?

 

[DavidDCM]

V-150 is used by Yonkav 7 (Jakarta capital guard) and Denkav 3 on Papua.

Saladin and Saracen are used by several different cavalry battalions as part of the recce company or Mech Inf Company as well as independent cavalry companies all over the place. All summed up, these two vehicles are still in service with at least 12 different units (from full-fledged battalion to lone independent company) but possibly even more.

Stormer & Scorpion are used by Kostrad (Yonkav 1 & 8) and will be transferred to a new unit as soon as the Leopard 2 arrives.

 

[Ananda]

Some pictures from arc website, showing gun test on Pindad refurbished AMX-13. The article stated that the 105 gun come from French CN105-57 family, and already have capabilities on firing APFSDS round.

The pictures clearly show much similarity of the turret with SK-105 Kurasier turret that David already pointed out.

 

[koxinga]

If you take a look at the attached photo, you will find that the plan did specify 398 Leopard 2. The title of the slide says MBT Leopard. Admittedly it didn't actually say whether it's Leopard 1 or 2, but the actual negotiation is specifically for Leopard 2.

The photo was supposedly taken during a Pussenkav (Cavalry Weaponry Center) presentation in 2011. At the time they already downselected the Leopard 2 out of the usual candidates.

Of course, just because the cavalry wants that many MBT doesn't mean that they will get them. You are correct in that there is currently no plan on getting more and that the probability of further acquisition in the near future is low.

Actually, it is precisely because of this slide that I said what I said. The context of this slide is how the acquisition of the Leopard MBT from both the Netherlands and Germany would go towards meeting the MEF 1 requirements for 398 units.

It is not about acquiring 398 Leopard MBTs. The Indonesian members can confirm whether my understanding is correct or wrong.

 

[Ananda]

It is not about acquiring 398 Leopard MBTs. The Indonesian members can confirm whether my understanding is correct or wrong.

Well the slide topic is acquisition of Leopard MBT. If my recollection correct, this slide come out after the Army already decide or at least publicly leaning heavily with Leo 2. The slide also show sub topic on the issue of comparison between Nato standard and Russian standard.

This reflect with the conditions on MBT choosing that time, where outside Leo 2, The Russian T-90 also heavily favorite especially by the Opposition political faction, which (as I've mentioned before) have strong lobbyists connection with Rosoboron. Infact some leading politician from opposition already stated publicly that MBT of 40+ ton is much more prefarable to Indonesian conditions than 60+ton MBT. Clearly refering to T-90 vs Leo 2 competition.

For that the Slide put comparison, which I believe in the end show more favourable factors for Leo 2 vs T-90 in supporting their (Army) argumen for Leopard MBT,

In short, I believe the slide pointed on acquiring Leopard MBT for achieving that number of MEF required. The slides seems pointed out that Leopard (Leo 2 in here) is the choice of MBT for Indonesian Army, with close to 400 requirements.

Again like tonnyc and me pointed out before, getting 400 MBT is not something that easy to achieve, especially those MBT is Leo 2. The slides show the Army preferences, and wish, but getting it as reality is different matter.

Besides, if the Opposition got the power, T-90 can come out as the additional MBT.

 

[Feanor]

Thanks for that.

The Australian doctrine, although its goes into shock effect and concentration of armour etc. is mainly one of MBTs save the lives of the Infantry they support and as such IMO will most likely be deployed (if ever) in Squadron and Troop levels in support of Infantry. I imagine Indonesia has or will adopt a similar doctrine with tanks being deployed in support of Infantry, preventing them from being pinned down and suffering excessive casualties to obstacles and defences that a tank could easily overcome.

So neither country is likely to use MBTs as tools of operational maneuver? Or neither country is likely to end up in a conflict that would require/allow that?

 

[Raven22]

Thanks for that.

The Australian doctrine, although its goes into shock effect and concentration of armour etc. is mainly one of MBTs save the lives of the Infantry they support and as such IMO will most likely be deployed (if ever) in Squadron and Troop levels in support of Infantry.

Er, no. Australian doctrine does not state that. The tank in support of the infantry pam went out in the '80s. Have a look at how tanks have been employed in recent Ex HAMELs and TALISMAN SABREs and you will see how Australian doctrine says to use tanks.

 

[Volkodav]

Er, no. Australian doctrine does not state that. The tank in support of the infantry pam went out in the '80s. Have a look at how tanks have been employed in recent Ex HAMELs and TALISMAN SABREs and you will see how Australian doctrine says to use tanks.

Well I am 20 years out of date, thanks for that. Any details available for the out of uniform and out of date?

 

[madokafc]

The 400 Leo 2, for me is the very big "if". Getting 100 Leo 2, already involve a lot of political 'bru ha ha', imagine on getting 400. Besides is there still available 300 second hand Leo 2 in the Market for Indonesia ? From what I gather, the ex Dutch Leo 2 will be moved to Canada, and German inventory of 'surplus' Leo 2, I don't think available in that number anymore. For that, getting to that 400 (from current 100) will involve procurement of newly build Leo 2, which will be much more expensive, which in the end will raise much more debate on Parliament.

With Political support on present Parliament for 60 ton MBT is precarious, imagine on next Parliament with present opposition set on getting much bigger portion on the seat. I personally agree with David, AMX-13 days as main tracked vehicles in the Army still someway to go. The best option on replacing them is not on getting more MBT, but on whatever come out with Pindad medium tank program 'or' getting additional Marder (IFV) which still available much on German Army inventory.

I don't know if you have more information on the Marder with Pindad. From what I gather, it's 'rumoured' the promised Tech Transfer for Pindad is not on Leo 2, but on Marder. Then if this true, with Pindad Medium Tank project, the Marder based IFV can be the main contender on replacing AMX-13 (both the Light Tank and VCI).
In sense 30+ ton Tracked Vehicle (whether this based on Pindad program or based on Marder), in my oppinion more realistically be the replacement for the AMX family with TNI-AD. However, getting to there is Medium Term objective at best, and for that the AMX-13 modernisation/upgrade job can still be Justifiable for present condition.

Not entirely must be Leopard2, it can be mixed with another kind of MBT, several politicians have some vendor backing behind their crafathty words against Leopard 2. Marder project still regarded as a viable options besides those Medium tanks projects, from what i know some cavalry commander deemed the low initial rate productions of Medium Tank cannot suffice their needs especially in the face of growing number of AMX-13 must be put into their retiring phase in the next 10 years from now if the overhauled process is going too slow like the current ones. FNSS has projected PT PINDAD can only produce at least 8 to 10 units of Medium Tank in their 2 to 4 years since acceptance test in which has been set at least in 2017 or 2018 with their current production lines. And the number just only will be increased by throwing more money to invest in production lines and overall industrial output. And with this projected condition, some people (either it will be someones from Kemenhan/DoD, some Politicians or Army itself) is trying to sell their "products".

And just not that, every Army Kodam or Military Region itself is so keen to pursuing to have their own Cavalry and Mechanized Infantry units within their region and some want to update their existing cavalry units with more powerful platform, some Kodam who has routinely expressing their needs of Cavalry is, Kodam Mulawarman (they will get their first Scorpion batt. soon), Kodam Bukit Barisan, Kodam Iskandar Muda, Kodam Udayana, Kodam Jaya, Kodam Diponegoro, Kodam Brawijaya and Kodam Siliwangi. And AMX 13 retrofit from some elite Military Regions will be handed over to less important Military Regions. And those AMX which cannot be overhauled will became monuments in the next 10 to 20 years.

 

[Ananda]

400 MBT plan, which can be 400, or only 100 and rest can be IFV, or the balance can be still light tank (Amx-13)..albeit the upgrade ones. For me, all of this still show TNI-AD, still has not have final Tank doctrine on using MBT or mixed fleet.

Budget can be the issue, or not an issue in here. However if you are not have final say on what doctrine you are going to use in the tank warfare in future, then no matter how much budget you can acquire, the final procurement still can be changing on the whim of any who got influence in the policy.

 

[madokafc]

400 MBT plan, which can be 400, or only 100 and rest can be IFV, or the balance can be still light tank (Amx-13)..albeit the upgrade ones. For me, all of this still show TNI-AD, still has not have final Tank doctrine on using MBT or mixed fleet.

Budget can be the issue, or not an issue in here. However if you are not have final say on what doctrine you are going to use in the tank warfare in future, then no matter how much budget you can acquire, the final procurement still can be changing on the whim of any who got influence in the policy.

Exactly, very disturbing eh

My self has advocated to use our Leo as part of Shock and Awe doctrine, using them as they intended to be and Kostrad likely has grasp the picture. Kostrad Cavalry unit will be used to breakthrough the stalemate conditions. And in the other hands using cavalry units from Kodam as part of Infantry supports and supporting fire for the other units.

 

[madokafc]

Soon TNI AD will receive their first batch of CESAR self propelled artillery and Astros MLRS. Both platform will be placed under Kostrad unit, that's alone with another soon inducted platform such as Marder IFV and Leopard2 will bring Kostrad as a more capable unit within Army.

More interestingly is the recently inducted Kh-179 155 mm will joint Latgab 2014, and prove their worth here. Kh-179 along with Kh-178 will be spread among regular army artillery unit under Kodam. If Kh-179 has prove their worth, army will get more of them. If not, we will find another type of platform. In the past, Kodam artillery unit is just consist of 76 mm mountain gun we had bought from Yugoslavia more than four decade ago and M-101 105 mm kind of relics from WW II. For MLRS unit, some artillery unit within Kodams will getting a brand new indigenous 122 mm RHAN after RHAN finished their test and trial phase in which involving test firing of more than 1000 unit rockets.

 

[Ananda]

From local Media; on Wednesday 25/6 at Nexter facility on Roane French, already conducted delivery process of 3 Nexter Ceasar 155 mm Self Propelled Gun. This 3 is part of 37 Ceaser 155 gun system will be delivered to Indonesia with 2000 ammo.

On twilight of their time, the present administration seems work hard to make sure that some of equipment they ordered will be delivered before their time ended. Besides the first batch of Ceasar 155 gun system, they already got ROK send KH179 155 towed gun, First batch of Astros MLRS from Brazil, and 26 Leo 2 from Rheinmettal Germany.

PS:
Additional Photo from local blog of PT. Pindad Komodo 4x4 which will become standard 4x4 for Indonesian military in the future.

 

[Ananda]

DVD 2014: Indonesian SAMs break cover, promising enhanced anti-UAV capability - IHS Jane's 360

From janes on Indonesian Army first batch of Thales Starstreak SHORAD system (left side photo). For me the question is, it's a similar system with MBDA Mistral SHORAD which already being used by the Army. In fact Mistral system installation already involved Pindad, which shown on using Pindad platform (right side photo), instead Land Rover platform as in Starstreak.

Regardles that, question remain why the Army wants to used 2 similar system for SHORAD ?

 

[STURM]

It could be due to price factors or simply because the army doesn't want to be placed in a situation where it has to rely on a single source for its MANPADs. If I'm not mistaken the TNI-AL already operates Tetral mounted Mistrals on its Sigmas.

I won't be surprised if the TNI-AD is also in the market for IR guided MANPADs. Sure, it would increase the logistical footprint but equipping units with both IR guided missiles and beam riders would make it harder for a target to deal with.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Thank you Ananda for sharing the photo of the Starstreak Lightweight Multiple Launcher (LML) on the Land Rover. For me its the first time to see something from the Indonesian order. Do you have info about the time of livery? I expect before Oktober.

I think Sturm has already answered your question correctly.
Until now (after the S-75) TNI only get SHORADS for low and slow flying air targets.... so its time to get something better.
Well... TNI-AL will get soon the VLS MICA, thats absolutely an improvement!

 

[Ananda]

My question related with charateristic and capabilities of Mistral and Starstreak that are very close and similar. The difference betwen those two misiles system is on guidance, which IR in Mistral and Laser Beam Riding on Starstreak.

@Sandi Yudha, both are SHORAD with capabilities for less than 10 km (more effective at 6-7 km), thus only for low flying close proximity target. It will not be usefull against Fast Jets in current environment, which mostly launch the attack outside SHORAD perimeter.

@Sturm, yes, there are logic to operated both IR and Beam Riders..However is the difference on guidance of IR and Laser Beam really that significant for SHORAD ?

I don't see much difference on performance result between IR and Beam Riders for SHORAD..(at least that I know off)..or in other word there are significant difference which merit procuring 2 different system (which off course resulted on additional complexity in logistical maintenance)..

Well I just little bit disapointed on procuring another SHORAD system, which basically did not provide significant difference on existing SHORAD system in the Inventory.

With VL MICA seems going to be used by TNI-AL, then TNI-AD better saved the budget for Starstreak for procurement of VL MICA (which off course more expensive) later on....

Mindef already done logical moved with Mistral being used by The Navy and the Army...Why can they do same thing with VL MICA..instead approving budget for another SHORAD system..