The Indonesian Army

[Ananda]

What's the story behind that and PT SSE's P8 light tank program?

x.com

x.com

One Indonesian Enthusiasts X shown this couple days ago. This guy either present or got info from insider. Seems there's delegation from Parliament coming to PT. SSE facility where the company shown their products. The star of their attraction is this P8, which seems they sloted as recon armoured track vehicle.

It is only build with Stagnag 2 protection standard, which in my opinion shown this is build for recon on jungle but also close quarters environment. The weight being told below 10 ton possible around 7-8.

Thus as concept it is can be said as enlarge German Wiesel AWC. TNI-AD in 90's shown interest to Wiesel, but then seems choose to keep their wheeled recon armoured vehicles. So as this private company already build this prototype, indicating there's enough interest from MinDef and TNI-AD brass to relook this concept.

 

[koxinga]

IMO, it is a perfect platform for an unmanned combat vehicle, rather than a manned option.

As for use as a armoured recon platform, it seems to be an odd choice. Small 2 man operated vehicle, which means limited range, and being tracked, even if it uses rubber tracks, higher maintenance compared to wheeled solution. (If it is three man, driver, gunner, commander, it is even more tight squeeze)

Economically, something like a P2 or a Komando makes more sense. Even if want to go more high end, the trend seems to be 6x6 like French EBRC Jaguar type solutions.

 

[Ananda]

It could be prepared for unmanned vehicle, but I suspect more on similar concept that German used with Wiesel AWC. From what I can gather from some enthusiasts forums, this is potentially two crew operations with driver and gunner that also operates RWS. The RWS is being design as modular platform, which being able to be switch from Gun Platform to Anti Armoured Missiles Platform.

Note: There are talks that the crew is three with commander but can be operate by two crew. Still nothing official yet. Rumours also speculate the final configuration will depends on results from TNI assessment test.

It is supposedly air transportable thus able to deploy fast. However it is also bigger then Wiesel that's being designed by Rheimettal for that airborne purpose. So, will see how this prototype assessment (which from what I heard the test will be conducted soon) results. This is not first time Indonesian MIC build prototype that goes nowhere. However seem so far this company (PT. SSE), has more prototypes being adopted then other local private MIC.

Add:

DPR RI on Instagram: "Komisi I DPR RI melakukan kunjungan kerja spesifik ke PT. Sentra Surya Ekajaya (SSE), Tangerang pada Kamis (21/11/2024). Kunjungan ini bertujuan untuk mengeksplorasi lebih dalam pengembangan dan inovasi kendaraan taktis nasional serta peningkatan kemandirian alutsista melalui optimalisasi produksi. Adapun PT. SSE juga meminta sejumlah dukungan dari Komisi I DPR RI agar industri pertahanan swasta mendapatkan perhatian lebih serius dari pemerintah untuk memastikan keberlanjutan produksi dan pengembangan alutsista nasional. Menanggapi aspirasi tersebut, Wakil Ketua Komisi I DPR RI Dave Akbarsyah Fikarno Laksono menekankan Pemerintah untuk turut memberikan dukungan lebih, baik dalam hal regulasi, kebijakan, maupun promosi untuk memastikan industri pertahanan dalam negeri dapat berkembang dengan baik. “Nah ini tentu harus didukung, harus disokong, baik secara aturannya, secara regulasinya, dan kebijakan-kebijakan Pemerintah untuk memastikan bahwa Pemerintah betul-betul berpihak kepada bangsa Indonesia secara keseluruhan bukan hanya satu sektor atau satu sisi,” tuturnya. #KunkerDPR"

1,873 likes, 30 comments - dpr_ri on November 22, 2024: "Komisi I DPR RI melakukan kunjungan kerja spesifik ke PT. Sentra Surya Ekajaya (SSE), Tangerang pada Kamis (21/11/2024). Kunjungan ini bertujuan untuk mengeksplorasi lebih dalam pengembangan dan inovasi kendaraan taktis nasional serta...

www.instagram.com

Video from Indonesia Parliement Instagram on their visit to PT. SSE

 

[kato]

It is supposedly air transportable thus able to deploy fast. However it is also bigger then Wiesel that's being designed by Rheimettal for that airborne purpose.

If comparing to German vehicles it looks closer to the tracked vehicles Germany used as general reconnaissance vehicles in the 50s to 70s - the SPz kurz Typ 11-2 based on an enlarged French Hotchkiss TT6. The 11-2 was a 8.2-ton Wiesel-sized tracked vehicle with a two-man crew, a small compartment in the back for a 4-man recce troop and a 20mm gun in turret. They were replaced in the 70s and 80s by Luchs and Fuchs wheeled vehicles. Originally they were used alongside M41D Walker Bulldog light tanks in mixed heavy recce companies.

To me, visually the PT SSE P8 looks way too bulky for what's inside btw. Since the engine is all the way in the back the room underneath the RWS - behind the crew compartment - seems to be entirely unused.

 

[Ananda]

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

youtube.com

This is DITA the Excalibur Defence 155mm Self Propeled Gun that being rumours for couple of years being offered to Indonesian Marines. Put this as rumours that Marines procurement for next year already being allocate including in there 155mm Self Propelled Gun, Additional 122mm MLRS and Amphibious IFV.

 

[Ananda]

Circulating today within Indonesian Enthusiasts online circles of a photo taken in Pindad facility of manufacturing process of FNSS-Pindad Kaplan/Harimau base APC. This supposedly also going to be further develop as IFV, Maintenance Support, Amphibious Track vehicles.

For now Harimau Medium Tank and APC at least gradually in the plann replacing AMX 13 and VCI. Although looking on procurement pace it will take more than a decade to do it.

 

[Ananda]

L'Indonesia interessata al NORA B-52

L'Indonesia è interessata ad integrare i CAESAR Mk1 francesi con i semoventi NORA B-52 prodotti in Serbia

aresdifesa.it

This actually a month old, put it here as seems the 'rumours' of another 155mm truck base system has more 'noise'. Rumours also talk that it is the Marines that ask for this Serbia NORA b-52. The Army so far seems still want to stick with their Ceasar 155mm system.

If this 'rumours' is really happening, then it is shown another facet of procurement 'taste' rivalries between Army and Marines. They simply can not agreed upon the taste on equipments.

 

[Ananda]

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

youtube.com

This short video from Prabowo's defense minister Sjafrie Sjamsudin. He's talking in Parliament defense committee on his/Prabowo's plan on defense development in this term.

He interate the plan of building 100 Teritorial Infantry Batallion. This Battalions also having abilities to support civilian duties on Fisheries, Construction and Farming. In sense Teritorial army supporting security and civilians support, while also backing up reguler army in the war.

Seems this is something that Dutch East Indies and now Russia done also. In sense he wants to have highly mobile reguler army units supported by Teritorial defense units in each regencies.

 

[tonnyc]

(sigh) this is another version of the old "dwifungsi"/dual function from Soeharto's era.

I have said before that Prabowo is a mediocre army general who could not get out from New Order era mindset. Well, this is an example of that mindset.

 

[Ananda]

From what I gather, the mindset of most TNI brass still ingrained on the philosophy of 'Pertahanan Semesta' and that basically teritorial defense. Correct me if I'm wrong, but at least that's what I can gather when talking with some of middle ranks officers.

Dwifungsi ABRI is also getting out of hand because the civilian politicians also wants Military back up during Soeharto era. So it is work both ways from those political circles. Nowadays there's some 'potential' the political factions backing it up at least portions of that.

Still I got sense they are also talking on necessity of the budget realism (at least talking with some middle ranks officers). They understand the reality of modern warfare, but with Indonesia large area and limited mobility capabilities, the need to disperse teritorial battalion seems the cost has to be paid.

I'm not defending that teritorial defense mindset, but seems it is mindset that already ingrained not only from New Order era, but also Old Order and back to Dutch East Indies era.

 

[Ananda]

This picture circling around on Indonesian enthusiasts online forums. This is supposedly latest gear set for army special forces. Personally I just see it too much layers for Tropics.

 

[Ananda]

An Enthusiasts X account put this, and it's coming from Idn Times video on Pindad. The picture being screen shoot from 0:40 in Video. The video talk about Maung Light 4x4 that's being mass produced for Indonesian senior officials vehicles. That's including also for civilians ones.

Still the video then shown basically all Pindad current products, including this Kaplan-Harimau APC version. This is the prototype that's being prepared for this year IndoDefense in June. Shown similar body frame base with Kaplan-Harimau Medium Tank.

 

[koxinga]

Probably this one. They need to replace the AMX-VCI at some point. Hopefully soon rather than later.

SAHA Expo 2024 - FNSS: two Kaplans are better than one; an armoured personnel carrier will join the medium tank in Indonesian service - EDR Magazine

Following the success of the Kaplan MT, FNSS will develop, again with PT Pindad, the new armoured personnel carrier for the Indonesian Army.

www.edrmagazine.eu

 

[tonnyc]

Pindad is ten years late. When I read this latest posts I thought, "Didn't I write about the need for APC years ago?" Lo, I did. In 2014 in this thread I questioned why TNI felt the need for "medium tanks" is more urgent than the need for more APCs. Heck, I remember on Kaskus (a now defunct Indonesian forum) saying that TNI-AD and Pindad would be better off committing to 400 APC and IFV both tracked and wheeled APC and IFV and just buying a few medium tanks as opposed to developing one.

Well, we're getting the APC and IFV eventually, I guess, but man, it would've been way more efficient and faster had the Indonesian Army followed logic and sense. Despite Indonesian Army's insistence that the Harimau medium tank was developed from first principles, it was obvious that FNSS developed the Kaplan based on the ACV-300 which in turn was based on the proven M113. The modifications made to the Harimau was just there to keep the Indonesian Army guys happy. Had we chosen the APC from the beginning, the Kaplan/Harimau APC could have started production 3-4 years earlier.

 

[Ananda]

If only base on present Pindad production facility and budget allocation, then it will take more then a decade to replace all AMX (both Version) to do it. I always see Indonesian Enthusiasts blame budgets for low production volume on SOE MIC platform producers (whether Pindad, PAL or DI). Procurement budget is one thing, but their present production facilities also make more bigger problem actually from what I heard.

Replacing AMX-VCI asside waiting for PINDAD production, from what rumours say before, actually being talked by acquiring more surplus Marder. As producing refurbished AMX-VCI or AMX-13 will face similar backlog problem in PINDAD production facility. However with Ukraine war, and now practically surplus Marder going there, seems replacing AMX will take much longer time windows schedule.

Add:
The conversation in this thread a decade ago that @tonnyc put shown how the plan in SBY era being executed in much slower pace during Jokowi era. Even with Prabowo's as Defense Minister on last term, also not speeding up as previously being hope.

Not going to be political, but more on political compromise in Indonesia (and off course the need for factionals projects distribution), means it will be very fortunate if all AMX can be replaced a decade from now. Still whatever the shortcomings some talk on Kaplan-Harimau designs, it is still much better armoured vehicles then AMX.

 

[koxinga]

Well, a lot of things needed ewplacing and funds were limited then, especially with the MEF plans. The priority seems to be firepower replacement for the AMX-13, then following by wheeled APC (Anoa) and others (e.g Astros, Caesars, Leopards).

AMX-VCI replacement seems to be put back many times or were overtaken / sacrificed for these needs.

 

[Ananda]

One of Indonesian Enthusiasts X account put this photo of row of Indonesian BTR-80A on UNIFIL inventory. Bit ironically seems at this moment there are more Indonesian BTR-80A in Lebanon under UNIFIL then back home at Marines bases.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

View attachment 52232
One of Indonesian Enthusiasts X account put this photo of row of Indonesian BTR-80A on UNIFIL inventory. Bit ironically seems at this moment there are more Indonesian BTR-80A in Lebanon under UNIFIL then back home at Marines bases.

From which i understand, the Korps Marinir uses the BTR-80A exclusively for UNIFIL in Libanon (besides the VAB from TNI-AD).
So maybe from the 12 BTR-80A in inventory, only a small amount are sometimes in Indonesia for heavy maintenance or 5 Oktober.

 

[Ananda]

Actually BTR-80A being procure by Marines in first decade of 2000 to replace BRDM in the inventory. Eventough most sources talk 12 BTR-80A being procure by Marines, however I believe I saw one old Russian article at that time that talk 36 that being supply.

Either way there're talk for Army and Marines to standardise their 8x8 and Pandur being talk as the candidates that Marines also being push to use it. Seems Marines still try to find other way around, as we know Marines has more tendencies to use Russian or Eastern Euro origin. In the development of Ukraine War, the Serbian Yugoimport seems being rumours lobbying Navy for Marines 155mm Self Propeled Gun and 8x8 as future replacement for BTR-80A.

That's why I say bit Irony for BTR-80A Marines, as if Navy able to secure Budget for Marines, those BTR-80A potentially can stay in Lebanon as part of UNIFIL command until end of their operational time.

 

[Ananda]

Another 4x4 Armoured APC collaboration between Indonesian local company SSE and French Texelis. Basically SSE doing body fabrication and Texelis provide components. Especially mobilities components.

This seems increasingly what Indonesian MinDef wants to pursue for local company MIC involvement. Spesifikasi APC P2 Tiger 4x4, Kendaraan Taktis Lapis Baja Buatan Lokal

Add:
Comparison between this P2 Tiger and Nexter Serval which is base on.