Royal Air Force [RAF] discussions and updates

[StobieWan]

P8 all the way - it's just less of an ask for infrastructure - hell, we could get deep maintenance on the engines done locally using civilian contractors and have swapouts available in hours - the P1 on the other hand?

I'm sure it's a nice bit of kit but seriously, P8, it's likely to become the industrial standard, it's the kit used by the big dog in the yard. Unless the localisation for P1 is inherent (press a button and select "system default language=English") then you're in for a bit of work right there.

 

[Volkodav]

P8 all the way - it's just less of an ask for infrastructure - hell, we could get deep maintenance on the engines done locally using civilian contractors and have swapouts available in hours - the P1 on the other hand?

I'm sure it's a nice bit of kit but seriously, P8, it's likely to become the industrial standard, it's the kit used by the big dog in the yard. Unless the localisation for P1 is inherent (press a button and select "system default language=English") then you're in for a bit of work right there.

Good point and as much as I love the Nimrod, and would have loved to have seen the MR4 succeed, the simple fact of the matter is it the UK had selected the P-3C instead of developing the Nimrod in the first place the RAF would likely still have an MPA force. Nothing puts a capability at risk like having an orphan (or near orphan) platform with a unique supply chain and nothing secures it like having a link into FMS.

 

[swerve]

BTW the 737 has had 4 generations, Original, Classic, Next Generation and now MAX

Yeah, but P-8 predates MAX. It's NG, the 1990s revamp in response to A320.

 

[A4kscooter]

737s don't seem to falling out the sky to regularly plus
P3, Nimrod and Il38 were all based on older civilan aircraft and all have given years of sterling military service I have now doubt the P8 will be a success.
The whole Nimrod MR2 replacement has been a fiasco and if politicians from both main parties hadn't listened to BAe and bought either refurburbished P3 or possibly P7 the UK wouldn't have wasted £3bn and now have a MPA fleet.

 

[swerve]

P-7 was dropped from contention when the USN cancelled it. It was still a paper aeroplane at that stage, & the MR2 replacement project had barely begun. Lockheed offered a variant of the P-3, not P-7.

The choice of MRA4 was made 6 years after the cancellation of P-7.

 

[John Fedup]

The basic airframe is still essentially the same one that Boeing used for the 707. Hang new engines off it, redesign the wings, upgrade the avionics but old is old. I still believe an airframe built specifically for maritime patrol is going to be a better airframe for maritime patrol than a converted 737 (or A320).

BTW the 737 has had 4 generations, Original, Classic, Next Generation and now MAX

Perhaps a specific MPA airframe design would offer superior performance but the value for money aspect would suck. Worse still, the unit cost would limit the number most nations could afford and the smaller fleet sizes would negate any performance advantages a dedicated airframe might have.

 

[RobWilliams]

10 RAF Typhoons have arrived in the US for Red Flag 15-1. One of the key goals is to assess the P1Eb enhancements an evaluate the Typhoons swing role capability. They plan on dropping 20 500lb Paveway IV PGMs as part of that.

They've deployed to Nellis AFB, Nevada.

RAF Typhoons arrive for Red Flag test - 1/14/2015 - Flight Global

 

[RobWilliams]

Typhoon integration has been rapidly increased with Phase 3 (3!) integration to be completed by 2017.

Typhoon Set For £165M Upgrade, New Missile

It has been announced today that an integration contract for Brimstone 2 onto Typhoon has been signed. Initial fit will be two racks of 3 missiles.

BAE recently unveiled an Arabic BAE site, here's a twitter link to a nice picture of an upgraded Typhoon. Weapon fitout is 2 ASRAAM, 4 AMRAAM, 6 Brimstone 2, 2 Storm Shadow, 4 Paveway IV (on twin racks) + Litening LDP.

Not a proper operational loadout mind, but nice to look at nonetheless.

https://twitter.com/chirine_SDA/status/569542177384230913

So within the next 3 years, Typhoon will be a *proper* multirole aircraft.

 

[RobWilliams]

https://www.facebook.com/RAFLossiemouth/posts/932437453455744

Turns out a pair of Sentinels went for Red Flag, they've since returned to the UK but the Typhoons are still out there for another exercise.

The Sentinel aircraft have returned to the UK but the Typhoons will remain in the USA to participate in Exercise Western Zephyr. Led by RAF Lossiemouth based 6 Squadron, the exercise will see the RAF work closely with the F-22 Raptors of the US Air Force’s 1st Fighter Wing at Langley Air Force Base, Virginia. The exercise continues the interoperability and integration of RAF operations with the fifth-generation F-22 ahead of the introduction into service of the F-35 Lightning II to its combat air inventory.

They also ended up dropping 25 instead of 20 Paveway IV bombs. Glad to hear it, with Saudi Typhoons now performing the first independently designated and prosecuted attacks from the aircraft itself, we need to ramp up A2G training for our Typhoon pilots.

Training with 5th gen platforms too is a must, despite it being close to a decade until we have them in significant numbers.

 

[RobWilliams]

During a visit to Cyprus, Fallon has disclosed more info about UK involvement in Syria strikes.

UK details extent of combat activity over Iraq - 3/2/2015 - Flight Global

Currently deployed at RAF Akrotiri are

• 8 x Tornado
• 2 x E-3D
• 2 x C-130J
• A330 MRTT

An undisclosed number (some other sources claim 4) of Reapers are there too. In terms of strikes, Tornados and Reapers have conducted 374 missions resulting in the release of 206 weapons.

One more quite interesting detail is that our Reapers have started stepping up ISR missions in Syria with 1, 4 and 8 missions being flown in November, December and January respectively.

 

[RobWilliams]

The RAF's first A400 - City of Bristol - has conducted its first operational mission delivering supplies to Cyprus in support of Op Shader.

RAF flies first A400M mission - IHS Jane's 360

But it's not all roses, the RAF has postponed their IOC declaration from the end of March out to September due to deliveries of aircraft slowing down. The plan was by the end of March we'd be receiving our 7th aircraft but right now we've recenty just hit 2.

Delivery slippages cause UK to delay A400M in-service date - IHS Jane's 360

FOC to be declared in 2022 (the OSD of their Herc fleet) with all aircraft to be fully capable. It'll be interesting to see if UKSF makes moves to try retain some of the C-130J fleet for their needs.

 

[Hone C]

FOC to be declared in 2022 (the OSD of their Herc fleet) with all aircraft to be fully capable. It'll be interesting to see if UKSF makes moves to try retain some of the C-130J fleet for their needs.[/quote]


Although the MoD was quick to point out that the delays will have a minimum impact on later A400M capability milestones it's clear that there are some serious concerns being raised regarding both delivery and performance issues.

In the UK context the speculation about further delays and the possibility of additional funds being required is particularly untimely given the uncertainty surrounding future military funding following the May elections and the SDSR.

It'll also be interesting to see if there is any impact on the AATF later down the road as the RAF/16X get back into the BG Para game. If that is pushed back beyond 2018 there could be problems, not least from a retention perspective.

 

[ADMk2]

The RAF's first A400 - City of Bristol - has conducted its first operational mission delivering supplies to Cyprus in support of Op Shader.

RAF flies first A400M mission - IHS Jane's 360

But it's not all roses, the RAF has postponed their IOC declaration from the end of March out to September due to deliveries of aircraft slowing down. The plan was by the end of March we'd be receiving our 7th aircraft but right now we've recenty just hit 2.

Delivery slippages cause UK to delay A400M in-service date - IHS Jane's 360

FOC to be declared in 2022 (the OSD of their Herc fleet) with all aircraft to be fully capable. It'll be interesting to see if UKSF makes moves to try retain some of the C-130J fleet for their needs.

Turning some C-130J's into SC-130J's seems like an absolute no brainer as well. The RAF's C-130J's aren't that old. They surely can't be worn out airframe-wise...

 

[the concerned]

I've often thought that surely everyone would like the MOD to buy the P-8 posiedon . But if it is decided that a alternative is required then the SC-130 must be better than a lot of the other options. When you only just had C-130k's retired after near on 50yrs service then the C-130j's can't be that knackered after less than 20yrs. Living in Cambridge and having worked at Marshall's aerospace on a few occasions I'm sure anything that needs doing on these aircraft they can surely do.

 

[StobieWan]

Turning some C-130J's into SC-130J's seems like an absolute no brainer as well. The RAF's C-130J's aren't that old. They surely can't be worn out airframe-wise...

If the Hercs are retained, they'll be retained purely for UKSFOR ops - from the RAF POV, ditching the entire supply chain for the Hercs in favour of a newer aircraft seems best. UK SFOR are apparently keen to retain something a bit smaller than A400M for insertions and short field ops.


We'll see - but I can't seen any spare cabs left over for MPA - and I'd sooner have P8.

 

[RobWilliams]

3 Chinooks in Afghanistan are to be replaced with upgraded Puma aircraft later this month, specifics weren't reported but 3 had been thrown around before.

UK's upgraded Puma helos prepare for Afghan deployment - IHS Jane's 360

 

[RobWilliams]

I am thankful Canada went with a package of C-17s and C-130Js. Had the A400M program not been so delayed our politicians likely would have opted for a cheaper single plane solution and we would have 20-25 A400Ms that are inferior strategic lifters and can't refuel helicopters instead of what we lucked into. I guess P&W Canada's failure to be involved in the engine development saved us some grief too.

Figured i would reply to this over here as I can relate it to the RAF significantly more than the AdlA.

Personally, I think the A400M is a great bird for the RAF. Thanks to Iraq/Afghanistan experiences, the sort of vehicles which they'll be transporting have increased in weight and volume. This means that what the UK expects its air transport fleet to do (and driven by the requirements of the Army) requires larger aircraft to lift heavier loads and the extended ranges required.

The C-130J is a good bird, that's a no-brainier, but it simply can't match the A400M in payload, volume, range or speed. Before anyone jumps in and says that I can't compare the two, different roles, strategic v tactical etc, the thing is in this case I can because one is directly replacing the other has the primary aircraft for the UK air transport fleet. So a comparison in my mind is perfectly valid.

The loads the A400M can carry are quite good, there's a list around on the web somewhere with different load configurations. I feel 22 will stand us in very good stead as we'll be able to move much more equipment into theatre faster than before.

Of course, the crux is *into* theatre. The A400M could well be overkill for loads within theatre and I believe that as much as the A400M *could* perform that role, it shouldn't if it can be avoided. Which is why I'm very keen - in an ideal world - to see if a portion of the C-130J fleet can remain. Marshall Aerospace seem capable enough to overhaul the airframes if they've been shagged out, the fleet itself was meant to go out until 2030+ if I remember rightly.

Of course, if that were to happen then associated funding would be required. The question must then be asked if there isn't enough money, what needs to be cut?

 

[John Fedup]

The reality is the A400M will soon be the only Western choice for heavy loads and semi-strategic lift now that the C-17 production has ended. Until the issue of AAR for helicopters is resolved with the A400M, the C-130J will be needed and for in-theater lift, it still will be a major player for many air forces.

 

[RobWilliams]

100% agreed. I'm not saying the A400M is the be-all-and-end-all of air transport, but it's still quite a good bird.

Airbus doubled their production rate from 1.25 to 2.5 aircraft per month to try claw back some time left to the delays.

 

[RobWilliams]

Nice F-35 roundup on recent progress + future plans as they are now. The section on the current plans for the UK is IMO very interesting. I think it's a great article.

UK Armed Forces Commentary: An F-35 update

Seems like the plan is that by 2018 we should have the following fleet construct

• 3 OT&E aircraft at Edwards AFB
• 5 training aircraft at MCAS Beaufort (17(R) Squadron)
• 9 operational aircraft at RAF Marham (617 Squadron)

17(R) Squadron is scheduled to move to RAF Marham in July 2019, there's considerable investment happening at Marham including 3 landing pads for VL training, current hardened aircraft shelters to be modernised, a new integrated training centre, a MRO facility, a VLO coating maintenance facility/RCS lab,

The LRIP split for the recently announced 14 strong order being as follows

• 4 in LRIP 8
• 6 in LRIP 9
• 4 in LRIP 10

When the F-35B enters UK service it'll be cleared for AMRAAM, ASRAAM and Paveway IV. ASRAAM is cleared for only external carriage. The rest are mix-and-match.

There's actually loads of stuff on UK integration plans and I really recommend reading it.

617 Squadron will be worked hard. 2018 is the year they plan on declaring land based IOC and begin flight trials off HMS Queen Elizabeth.

There's no word on when 809 NAS will stand up as of yet. That should be a 2015 SDSR question as it should happen before 2020. My personal opinions on the current state of aircraft numbers is that there is no way we have shrunk from 138 down to 48. I'm not so naive as to think we'll get all of them. No way. But what I definitely can see happening is an additional commitment for 24 (48+24=72) and push out the decision again for SDSR 2020