Royal Air Force (RAF-UK) Discussions and Updates

[RobWilliams]

I got some great shots of her at Yeovilton Air Day, after the display she taxied and parked up literally within 20 feet of where we were sat.

But I won't be going back to Yeovilton again in any real hurry, the queing was little more than a massive rugby scrum with no real structure once inside the base. Plus there were the usual morons who thought ques didn't apply to them.

Would rather go to Fairford.

 

[RobWilliams]

Really interesting article in Aviation Week about the UK/French UCAV project.

Apparently these are the primary objectives of the system

• SEAD/DEAD
• Airfield attack
• missions against strategic targets
• air interdiction in a contested environment
• Armed reconnaissance

With secondary objectives

• Anti-ship strike
  CAS
  Self defence air attack

Investments are being made in a next generation multifunction radar to allow it to do 'traditional mapping and target identification' as well as provide a credible self defence capability with Meteor.

Long endurance, ranging from 9 - 12 hours, capability to refuel in midair and EW are being included. Goal for it to be cheaper than Rafale/Typhoon with lower life cycle costs.

The article says that a number of options are being studied out to 2030 including buying more F-35s, extending Typhoons OSD or building a new manned aircraft.

We will definitely be extending Typhoons life, she'll start to be omnirole later in the decade with Storm Shadow and Brimstone 2 and 2030 is just over a decade after that, so I doubt it'll be binned a decade after it becomes most useful.

Extend Typhoon, build up F-35 numbers to replace Tornado and carrier strike & 2035/2040+ replace Typhoon with F/A-XX for a fleet of F-35, F/A-XX and FCAS.

 

[colay]

Really interesting article in Aviation Week about the UK/French UCAV project.

Apparently these are the primary objectives of the system

• SEAD/DEAD
• Airfield attack
• missions against strategic targets
• air interdiction in a contested environment
• Armed reconnaissance

With secondary objectives

• Anti-ship strike
  CAS
  Self defence air attack

Investments are being made in a next generation multifunction radar to allow it to do 'traditional mapping and target identification' as well as provide a credible self defence capability with Meteor.

Long endurance, ranging from 9 - 12 hours, capability to refuel in midair and EW are being included. Goal for it to be cheaper than Rafale/Typhoon with lower life cycle costs.

The article says that a number of options are being studied out to 2030 including buying more F-35s, extending Typhoons OSD or building a new manned aircraft.

We will definitely be extending Typhoons life, she'll start to be omnirole later in the decade with Storm Shadow and Brimstone 2 and 2030 is just over a decade after that, so I doubt it'll be binned a decade after it becomes most useful.

Extend Typhoon, build up F-35 numbers to replace Tornado and carrier strike & 2035/2040+ replace Typhoon with F/A-XX for a fleet of F-35, F/A-XX and FCAS.

The Europeans seem committed to building a UCAV focused on offensive strike. I'm curious as to their ISR strategy. By contrast, the USN and DoD are still debating the direction UCLASS is going to take.

 

[RobWilliams]

The article claims that it's a UK requirement (rather than a French requirement) for the platform to perform armed recce, but it then goes on to describe this being a role which it would perform after the doors had been kicked in plus being able to perform air interdiction in contested airspace in the first instance.

But if the goal is to perform those duties as well as having VLO characteristics, then it's not impossible to believe it could perform ISR missions before that happens if it's designed to survive contested air space.

However this is 2030+, this is all still aims and goals at this point.

 

[KiwiRob]

Due to the pretty extensive use of the RAF C17 fleeet, is there any chance that the UK will order any of the remaining 8 white tails left (now that Australia has ordered 2)?

 

[swerve]

We started out leasing 4 C-17s as a stopgap until our A400s arrived. We now have 8, & we're about to start taking delivery of 22 A400M.

Interest was expressed last year in buying a ninth (the RAF has said it'd like 10), but nothing seems to have come of that. I think that with our first A400M delivery having been brought forward to next month, the window may have closed.

 

[John Fedup]

Due to the pretty extensive use of the RAF C17 fleeet, is there any chance that the UK will order any of the remaining 8 white tails left (now that Australia has ordered 2)?

Considering Canada's geographic area, Canada should order additional C-17s as we are a current user and the remaining white tails will be our last chance to expand strategic lift as no alternative exists or is likely to for decades.

 

[RobWilliams]

I think we've gone past the point of getting another C-17, we're getting 2 more A400M this year than we were meant to due to slot-swapping with the French.

IMO we should put up the additional 3 options for the fleet.

 

[swerve]

Additional 3 A400M?

I worry that our transport fleet's becoming top-heavy. C-17, A400M, & A330 (passengers & underfloor cargo as well as AAR), when the C-130s go.

We got a couple of secondhand BAe 146s because it was perceived there was a need for a modest sized aircraft to shuttle passengers & small cargo into & out of Afghanistan, but I think there may be a niche for something like the CN235 or C295, in modest numbers.

 

[RobWilliams]

I thought the 146 was bought for shuttling goods/people around Afghanistan internally?

That could happen, I thought Special Forces were working a way to keep hold of some C-130s for their roles but that's just the rumour making the rounds.

 

[swerve]

I thought the 146 was bought for shuttling goods/people around Afghanistan internally?.

I think it was to do that, & a regional shuttle, e.g. to/from the UAE. The RAF web page put up when they were bought says "They will be used to supplement the current Tactical Air Transport (AT) fleet throughout the Middle East". Much better for passengers than the Herc.

 

[RobWilliams]

I'd still like more A400Ms though, Germany and Spain are looking to offload something like 20+ (from memory) from their order which could be picked up at good prices and we'd already have the supply chain in place to support the type and the training streams already exist.

That being said, there's certain appeals to keeping hold of some C-130Js as initially they wanted them to last out till 2032 before having that cut to 2022 although I don't know what sort of life they've had. Remember, 2022 was initially when our last A400Ms arrived in service but now that's been shortened to 2018 thanks to trading production slots with the French, so will the C-130Js be removed quicker or will the usual schedule be used?

Anyway, our first A400M has made it's first flight

RAF's first A400M Atlas completes maiden flight - 9/1/2014 - Flight Global

 

[RobWilliams]

Interesting noises coming out from the NATO summit about MPA.

A while ago there was a response from an MP to the question "Can you tell us anything about the plan to lease 4 P-8's?" with "No, i can't tell you". Hideous paraphrasing there, but that was the general idea and it's generally been interpreted as a backhanded confirmation that there are some sorts of discussions about leasing 4 P-8s going on.

There was also the idea of adding software to Sentinel to make it valid for oversea work, well, it has come out that they have been discussing this with Raytheon to turn one aicraft into a test aircraft for the software (with timing and funding still undecided) in 2015. Presumably the money comes from the extra the PM pledged for ISR.

Anyway, the chief engineer of airborne solutions at Raytheon pretty much said - stressed was the word - that Sentinel won't fit the roll of a proper MPA. But they were in discussion with Airbus to put together a solution if/when the UK formally announces the MPA requirement.

Presumably Raytheon wants to use the data from the Sentinel tests to produce a workable MPA hardware/software package and team up with Airbus for an airframe to put it all in. Past rumours of an Airbus MPA have been shown in the A319 airframe.

Interesting proposal, France and Italy still operate ATL MPA, a couple others (Spain, Germany, Netherlands) operate variants of the P-3 although i've no idea about upgrades, could be a market for it? Thoughts?

 

[swerve]

Airbus makes CN235 & C295 MPAs, both if which are in service, as well as its A319 proposal & its upgrades to P-3s (upgraded P-3s in service in Spain & Brazil).

There have been suggestions that we could get the C295. A much lower performance aircraft, but relatively cheap, & comes with a good (Airbus) combat system which has proven itself capable of being adapted to work with a variety of sensors & other equipment rather easily.

 

[kato]

a couple others (Spain, Germany, Netherlands) operate variants of the P-3

Netherlands sold theirs to Germany and Portugal. Both countries operate upgraded P-3CUP, Portugal also runs C-295MPA. Norway has upgraded P-3IUP. Spain and Greece operate original P-3B, most Spanish models upgraded with EADS CASA FITS.

The French Atlantique 2 are pretty new compared to the Orions, while the Italian second-batch Atlantique 1 are around 15 years older.

 

[RobWilliams]

Ahh I see, thanks for the info!

Seems like quite a staggered age of fleets across Europe then, but given the development time of a hypothetical Airbus MPA then it could bring it into being an option.

That being said, UK MPA requirement needs filling *now* and if the 4 leased P-8s materialises then from a UK perspective is it wise to either sink costs in leasing P-8s and funding an Airbus development (hmm) or delaying still and funding an Airbus product which by all accounts might not be a necessarily excessive project to undertake.

It's got potential, that's for sure IMO.

@swerve the issue is that whilst I accept it's very cheap to procure and run and can do a lot of things, if it can't fulfil the requirement (which is I accept currently unknown) to have X hours endurance at Y miles and have Z payload then it'll arguably be a waste of money for the MPA requirement.

Once a public tender is released then we'll know, but it can completely get the appeal of a cheap aircraft with a payload which fills the gap between Chinook and A400M.

 

[swerve]

Spain and Greece operate original P-3B, most Spanish models upgraded with EADS CASA FITS.

IIRC the Spanish put theirs (ex-Norwegian) through a major upgrade & renovation: structural overhaul, new cockpit, FITS plus new sensors - the works. Sold the same upgrade to Brazil.

 

[RobWilliams]

The UK will begin mods to our Sentinel R1 aircraft to have an over-sea capability, contract signing to happen mid-2015.

UK to upgrade Sentinel R.1s for maritime operations - IHS Jane's 360

Bit ominous really considering it's less than 7 months until the next general election and the following SDSR. Doesn't bode well - IMO - for an MPA purchase if you're upgrading other assets to do the job.

But there's an interesting caveat in the analysis which suggests using a Sentinel MR1 for every day maritime patrol/current capability which would free up a limited number of higher end MPA like the P-8 for expeditionary ops or the likes of escorting our SSBNs in and out of port.

 

[RobWilliams]

Bit of an update on Paveway IV enhancements which will result in a bunker busting warhead by next year. The goal is that Paveway IV will be the backbone of the UK's guided bomb inventory and this variant would replace Paveway III although i'm not convinced that a 500lb warhead can have a comparable perpetrator capability as a 2000lb warhead.

RAF To Be Equipped With Bunker Busting Version of Paveway IV | Defense News | defensenews.com

Also, tomorrow is supposedly going to be the day when EF nations finally sign a development contract for Selex-ES to develop Captor-E.

Interesting point of Captor-E is that it's an AESA mounted on a movable fixture which itself can be steered.

Action Pending on AESA Radar for Typhoon | Defense News | defensenews.com

 

[swerve]

The Typhoon radar has long been meant to be put on a repositioner to give it a wide field of view. The Gripen E radar also has one, though not, I think, the same. The RAF is said to like the off-axis view that mechanical scanning gives. Perhaps some other air forces agree.