Ukranian Crisis

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Twain

Active Member
They're probably not Russian troops.
They are russian citizens, often carrying russian passports and occassionally russian army papers, most of them seem to have been discharged, sometimes as recently as weeks ago. They are supplied by russia, paid by russia, given military equipment by russia. Until recently, all of their leadership was russian, What else should we call them?

The separation the separation between active duty russian military and the russian troops in Ukraine is getting thinner and thinner and only sustained because there are political reasons for not calling them what they are, russian troops. The reality is that russian troops with the support of the russian government have invaded Ukraine. They aren't getting tanks, Buk missiles, artillery, grads etc, from their local walmart.
 
Update.

There is info about two dead Russian VDV soldiers. Many think they may have died inside Ukraine. Details and proof are absent, but the funerals did take place.

Meanwhile Ukrainian sources claim they have Russian soldiers prisoner, from the 98th VDV Division. However no photos, or evidence has been provided. The VKontakte page of a Russian demobbed soldier who was supposedly taken prisoner shows he's alive, and well, and in Russia.
Widely reported across media outlets now that 10 soldiers of 98th VDV have been captured in Ukraine, yesterday in the area of Amvrosiivka, by UA forces. Russian Govt acknowledging this has occurred and officially announced these men have 'strayed' over the border.. Who believes this?

A Russian defence ministry source was quoted by the Russian news agency RIA Novosti as saying: "The soldiers really did participate in a patrol of a section of the Russian-Ukrainian border, crossed it by accident on an unmarked section, and as far as we understand showed no resistance to the armed forces of Ukraine when they were detained."

BBC News - Captured Russian troops 'in Ukraine by accident'

Photos from social media allegedly of the captured troops. https://mobile.twitter.com/MiddleEast_BRK/status/504006424377454592

There were funerals for two dead VDV in Pskov, but I thought these were related to the recent large-scale training exercises in that area, over the last week.. Maybe a wrong assumption on my part or unconnected?..
http://in.rbth.com/news/2014/08/14/active_phase_of_military_drills_in_pskov_region_involves_2600_russian_be_37527.html
http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/744910
 

Twain

Active Member
Who would have guessed, Russia is accusing Ukraine of border violations.

The ministry also stressed that the Ukrainian military repeatedly crossed the Russian border.
"On the Russian territory repeatedly, singly and in groups, went Ukrainian servicemen total of more than 500 people, including those with arms and armor, no unnecessary fuss about it, we are not satisfied, simply return the everyone on the Ukrainian territory in a safe place "- he said.


ИТÐÐ*-ТÐСС: Политика - Минобороны: военноÑлужащие Ð*Ф Ñлучайно переÑекли учаÑток роÑÑиÐко-украинÑкой границы
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Interviews with captured soldiers from the 98th VDV have been shown on TV in Ukraine.

According to reports elsewhere, they were captured 25km from the border, & the identifying marks on their vehicles had been painted out.

25km is a long way over a border to wander by accident.

Could explain how 'rebels' have suddenly been able to advance in that area, eh?

Admit it, Feanor: Russia is fighting a war against Ukraine. It's using local proxies, but also its own men.
 

wsb05

Member
Seing more reports like this:

Aid delivery: 4 trucks with equipment of Donetsk factory Tochmash has been transported to Makiivka for possible future transfer to Russia.

https://twitter.com/OnlineMagazin/status/504223836347564032

This would explain the "humanitarian convoys" because they certainly weren't out Putin's overwhelming concern for the people of Ukraine.
Man, please. They can get them out without the need for a convoy.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Latest 'rebel' maps show them controlling a strip along the southern border. It's hard to see how they could have captured this from the territory they previously held, but it's entirely consistent with the Ukrainian stories of troops crossing the border from Russia.

The Russian regular army soldiers shown on Ukrainian TV were in the northern part of that strip.

So . . . is there still anyone denying that in effect, Russia has now invaded Ukraine?
 

Rimasta

Member
Latest 'rebel' maps show them controlling a strip along the southern border. It's hard to see how they could have captured this from the territory they previously held, but it's entirely consistent with the Ukrainian stories of troops crossing the border from Russia.

The Russian regular army soldiers shown on Ukrainian TV were in the northern part of that strip.

So . . . is there still anyone denying that in effect, Russia has now invaded Ukraine?
If this isn't a war between Russia and the Ukraine then I don't know what constitutes a war. Perhaps the US 82nd Airborne division should remove their insignia's and identifying markings so we can intervene in Syria while claiming non-intervention. I think by now, a blind man can see the hand of the Russian Army in the Donbass. If it dresses like a Russian, talks like a Russian, and acts like a Russian, fair chance its Russian.
 

Toblerone

Banned Member
Captured soldiers inside of Ukraine, Putin lost the plausible deniability battle. In his place I would be very concerned with the seemingly easy capture.

And by concerned I mean heads would fucking roll.

I guess it was a calculated risk to avoid the separatists getting cut off from Russian help? It's hard to understand, all maps are biased or outdated/wrong.
 
I hardly think a 300 truck convoy is a cover up for 4 trucks of semiconductors. Also the twitter only implies
It's not, but Twain has a legitimate point..

The first convoy (circa 280 trucks) was reportedly and allegedly carrying back the "Topaz” production unit for the “Kolchuga” radar, and equipment from Luhansk that specialises in manufacturing ammunition magazines. This was just last week

Ukraine accuses Russian aid convoy of stealing factory equipment | euronews, world news

If a Russian "humanitarian' convoy is attacked, it could be easily used a a pretext for further escalation - why do you think ICRC wanted involvement and many other countries advocating non-unilateral humanitarian aid deliveries?

I'm sure everyone is well aware that this equipment and reports from the previous convoy of other equipment, could be transported through rebel controlled areas back to Russia, but de-risking that effort, is a better way to ensure it arrives.

I'm not saying this is happening, but to deny its not plausible is a little nieve.
 

SolarWind

Active Member
So . . . is there still anyone denying that in effect, Russia has now invaded Ukraine?
Well, OTOH, Russia has not applied a full conventional might of its forces with an aim to overrun Ukrainian territory and replace Kiev government. Their goals seem to have been limited to creating chaos and a territory dispute for Ukraine so it can't join EU or NATO. Now if there is sufficient evidence that Ukraine is in an actual war with Russia, can the IMF continue giving loans to Ukraine? I could not find information on that. These loans are the only thing keeping Ukraine from quickly finishing its decay into a failed state.
 

Blackshoe

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Interviews with captured soldiers from the 98th VDV have been shown on TV in Ukraine.

According to reports elsewhere, they were captured 25km from the border, & the identifying marks on their vehicles had been painted out.

25km is a long way over a border to wander by accident.
[sarcasm]Landnav must not be the VDV's strong suit. Or maybe that was one of Serdyukov's reforms that Shoigu decided to get rid of.[/sarcasm]

Reuters has a story about some of the conflict in the south, with some pretty damning findings:

A Reuters reporter was able to observe the situation in the area where the column was seen, first at the start of August and then most recently on Sunday afternoon, a few hours before the first sightings of the column were reported.

Those observations, combined with interviews with rebel leaders, Ukrainian soldiers, and other research, indicated two things.

First, that until late on Sunday there were no rebel formations within about 30 km (20 miles) of the area where the armoured column first appeared, and had not been for weeks beforehand.

And secondly, that before the armoured column appeared, the area had come under artillery fire at times when the nearest rebel positions were beyond the range of most types of weapon that could have delivered the strike.
 

BlueRose

New Member
No one doubts this is a proxy war. Russia has not invaded Ukraine; In reality all of you should know that the UA would fall in a matter of days, if Russia decided for a full on Invasion. All it takes is common sense and observation. There is no need to make such a big fuss about it, the scale is so limited... It's laughable. Also, don't forget that American Mercenary groups, such as Academi are providing security for Mr. Poroshenko in Kiev.
 

Twain

Active Member
No one doubts this is a proxy war. Russia has not invaded Ukraine; In reality all of you should know that the UA would fall in a matter of days, if Russia decided for a full on Invasion. All it takes is common sense and observation. There is no need to make such a big fuss about it, the scale is so limited... It's laughable. Also, don't forget that American Mercenary groups, such as Academi are providing security for Mr. Poroshenko in Kiev.
It may be a limited war but it is not being fought by russian proxies, it's being fought by russians. That's been shown over and over again.
 

Twain

Active Member
I hardly think a 300 truck convoy is a cover up for 4 trucks of semiconductors. Also the twitter only implies
It's not 4 trucks of semiconductors, it's trucks of manufacturing equipment. This may or may not be true but at least it explains the "humanitarian convoy' with trucks that are barely loaded. They certainly weren't sent to Ukraine for humanitarian reasons so why were they sent to Ukraine?
 

the concerned

Active Member
No one doubts this is a proxy war. Russia has not invaded Ukraine; In reality all of you should know that the UA would fall in a matter of days, if Russia decided for a full on Invasion. All it takes is common sense and observation. There is no need to make such a big fuss about it, the scale is so limited... It's laughable. Also, don't forget that American Mercenary groups, such as Academi are providing security for Mr. Poroshenko in Kiev.
The point is if Russia practiced what it is preaching this war would be over and Ukrainian's on all sides would stop being killed,It says the crisis can't be solved militarily but no one thinks the rebels would win so all Putin is doing is prolonging the misery for the people of eastern Ukraine by providing weapons
 

Blackshoe

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
No one doubts this is a proxy war. Russia has not invaded Ukraine; In reality all of you should know that the UA would fall in a matter of days, if Russia decided for a full on Invasion. All it takes is common sense and observation. There is no need to make such a big fuss about it, the scale is so limited... It's laughable. Also, don't forget that American Mercenary groups, such as Academi are providing security for Mr. Poroshenko in Kiev.
So it's okay as long as it's a limited invasion (and yes, sending your armed forces into another country without their permission is an invasion) is what you are saying?

If the Republic of Georgia wanted to send a small column of armor (another one spotted today) and ADA with artillery support into Abkhazia or South (or even North) Ossetia, or if Azerbaijan wanted to do the same into Dagestan...that there would be no need for Russia to make a "big fuss", as long as it's a "limited" invasion? Since you want to bring equivalency by bringing private security companies hired for internal security vice a nation-state's national military forces into the equation, it would also be fine if either of those two nations hired Academi to do the same (eg stage a limited incursion into another country)?

Or if the PLA wanted to do the same out in the Far East...again, fine as long as it's a limited force?
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Interviews with captured soldiers from the 98th VDV have been shown on TV in Ukraine.

According to reports elsewhere, they were captured 25km from the border, & the identifying marks on their vehicles had been painted out.

25km is a long way over a border to wander by accident.
Good question. However, I have another one. Why VDV infantry? There are iirc 6 SpN Brigades, plus an SpN regiment in the VDV, plus new the Special Operations Center (a structure created for the explicit purpose of fighting wars like this one, unofficially). But instead we have... regular VDV?

Could explain how 'rebels' have suddenly been able to advance in that area, eh?

Admit it, Feanor: Russia is fighting a war against Ukraine. It's using local proxies, but also its own men.
Apparently so. Stupid, and strange in my opinion. Given Putin's much more intelligent plays with the humanitarian convoy, and the Syrian situation, this honestly looks stupid. Especially given what kind of personnel are involved.

Latest 'rebel' maps show them controlling a strip along the southern border. It's hard to see how they could have captured this from the territory they previously held, but it's entirely consistent with the Ukrainian stories of troops crossing the border from Russia.

The Russian regular army soldiers shown on Ukrainian TV were in the northern part of that strip.

So . . . is there still anyone denying that in effect, Russia has now invaded Ukraine?
Do you have a link to the maps by chance?

I'm more interested in a report, though, on an ambush against a National Guard unit, near Mariupol', that has professional written all over it. Apparently the NG column was hit by high caliber sniper rifle fire, then one long burst from a medium machinegun, which wounded a large number of people, and routed the column.

The point is if Russia practiced what it is preaching this war would be over and Ukrainian's on all sides would stop being killed,It says the crisis can't be solved militarily but no one thinks the rebels would win so all Putin is doing is prolonging the misery for the people of eastern Ukraine by providing weapons
This would be an accurate assessment. Actually this crisis would be better off with any other course of action by Russia. An outright invasion, and rapid annexation, Crimea style, back in March or April, would have gone off without a hitch and been practically bloodless. A hands off approach, with a nice trade war shove down the road to economic collapse, would have avoided this violence all together. Instead we have a half-measure giving us the worst of both worlds.

Well, OTOH, Russia has not applied a full conventional might of its forces with an aim to overrun Ukrainian territory and replace Kiev government. Their goals seem to have been limited to creating chaos and a territory dispute for Ukraine so it can't join EU or NATO. Now if there is sufficient evidence that Ukraine is in an actual war with Russia, can the IMF continue giving loans to Ukraine? I could not find information on that. These loans are the only thing keeping Ukraine from quickly finishing its decay into a failed state.
It certainly can, whether it should or will is another question entirely.

It may be a limited war but it is not being fought by russian proxies, it's being fought by russians. That's been shown over and over again.
No. The first real evidence has emerged now and only now. Before this we had messy reports, a couple of instances of open and obvious falsification, and some indirect evidence that Russian secret services are involved. Actually what's been shown over and over again that the majority of the rebels are god knows who, from all over the world, from Central Asia to the Balkans.
 
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