The Arjun Tank

[the road runner]

Don’t take it otherwise but suppose you are on a plan to prepare a fusion-dish of continental and Thai for a party and it take 6 week to become expert on that never does mean that you going serve them the dish which contains 6 week old ingredients. Is not it?
Well let me make the thing a bit more clear to you….. Whenever there is plan taken on any industry to produce some thing new it take a lot time on design-evolution-redesign phase. You can take help of any production model like spiral model or waterfall model even COCOMO model. The initial design phase is never self sufficient. So what the developer do is the first build a simple design and when it finished the start improving the parameters along with all possible deterministic method to improve its effectiveness. For simplicity am adding a line model for the design and evolution process along with a time frame.

As you can see on the diagram each part ABCDE….. takes some time and why this happen is just because at the beginning the designer knows a very less regarding the project and thus the product is some what less efficient than the actual requirement . With time their skill and knowledge also increases. You can remember the fact that NASA at the beginning fails on many occasion which remarkably decreases with time as their expertise grows. This term is very much important and became a key point when the development cross a line for which the model became much more advanced than the present time frame specification. And here after the production starts. It is quite obvious that the final out come is much more advanced than the initial design.

And again the fact is that even after entering the production stage the development stage does not ended. It is simply because the developer want to achieve some more future design which can withstand the upcoming market.

The same thing happens with the Arjun development process also and obviously Arjun is not a 36 year old thing rather I would prefer to say it just a new born baby which spend 36 year on the incubator And we can hope on near feature we can see a much more advanced version of that may be in some other name.

Thanx ,but i will stick with my point that is has taken 36 years to design/develope and field this MBT with the Indian army indicating it dose not want more ARJUN MBT.It sounds like an obsolete beast to me.
My 2c

 

[funtz]

Thanx ,but i will stick with my point that is has taken 36 years to design/develope and field this MBT with the Indian army indicating it dose not want more ARJUN MBT.It sounds like an obsolete beast to me.
My 2c

You will be wrong sir.

Indian Army doesn't want "ANY" Arjun MBT at all.
Its 36 years, they should mention this on the advertising material that its not your dad's tank.

However Its not Obsolete,

adjective, verb, -let⋅ed, -let⋅ing.
–adjective

1. no longer in general use; fallen into disuse: an obsolete expression.

2. of a discarded or outmoded type; out of date: an obsolete battleship.

3. (of a linguistic form) no longer in use, esp., out of use for at least the past century. Compare archaic.

4. effaced by wearing down or away.

5. Biology. imperfectly developed or rudimentary in comparison with the corresponding character in other individuals, as of the opposite sex or of a related species.
–verb (used with object)

6. to make obsolete by replacing with something newer or better; antiquate: Automation has obsoleted many factory workers.

- Its in general use, the army will have to get a total of 240.

- Its not discarded or outmoded type, or out of type. (T-72, T-55, Vijayanta etc, and the technology on it is very recent, engine, transmission, suspension etc. etc.).

- Its in use.

- Brand new.

- not a chick.

- Brand new.

nfloorl:

 

[the road runner]

funtz thanx for your reply,but are you saying i am wrong

1)in saying that the INDIAN Army dose not want ARJUN at all?(124 inducted into the army in 2008???)if the Indian army dose not want this tank why are they built?

I think your taking me out of context,please explain why i am wrong?I am hear to learn
It seems strange that the ARJUN is not Obsolete but the INDIAN ARMY is running 8 years behind its purchase of MBT and still the Indian Army dose not want the ARJUN tank.Cmon now read between the lines.

 

[funtz]

funtz thanx for your reply,but are you saying i am wrong

1)in saying that the INDIAN Army dose not want ARJUN at all?(124 inducted into the army in 2008???)if the Indian army dose not want this tank why are they built?

I think your taking me out of context,please explain why i am wrong?I am hear to learn

It seems strange that the ARJUN is not Obsolete but the INDIAN ARMY is running 8 years behind its purchase of MBT and still the Indian Army dose not want the ARJUN tank.Cmon now read between the lines.

They are build based on the experience of the past generations, you can never trust other nations to provide the best they have for the defence of your nation, and neither should you (expect them).

And because the money me and my dad paid in tax has gone into the tank they better induct more.

The army wants a modern tank with all the modern stuff on it, the Arjun MBT was not ready in the 1999-2002 time frame as integration was going on, however our neighbours to the west started inducting some modern tanks.

That forced the military establishment to analyse the international options, T-90 came out as the result as it was able to fit in with the already established infra.

Now the military has already planned its armour modernisation with a lot of T-90s and upgraded T-72s, the Arjun MBT does not fit into this scheme without complicating logistics, training & field engineering, which is bad because war is a very complicated thing. ( i guess its easier if the same guys and equipment can work in any of the MBT, i nstead of a separate crew for every 2 tanks)

At this point even if the Arjun MBT was able to swim across the ocean and kill a 100 tanks, the Indian Army will still want to go with the already worked out and approved plan as they know the T-90 is able to deal with all the required threats. They military would want the production lines dedicated to produce the Arjun MBT to make some more T-90s and finish the process quickly.

However the military establishment will make them induct 124+124 tanks as its a home made thing (more than the options), and because they want the next generation tanks to be inducted to be made in India,

The one thing in favour of the Arjun tank at this point of time is that the Russians are not giving/allowing (transfer of) important technology involved in making the T-90 which is resulting in more delays in their induction. (its might just be easier to produce these tanks at home because agreements for indigenous production of components and their gradual replacement with totally indigenous components might be easier with the Arjun MBT).

I think many people with more knowledge about armous have commented on previous and this thread.

 

[the road runner]

They are build based on the experience of the past generations, you can never trust other nations to provide the best they have for the defence of your nation, and neither should you (expect them).

And because the money me and my dad paid in tax has gone into the tank they better induct more

The one thing in favour of the Arjun tank at this point of time is that the Russians are not giving/allowing (transfer of) important technology involved in making the T-90 which is resulting in more delays in their induction. (its might just be easier to produce these tanks at home because agreements for indigenous production of components and their gradual replacement with totally indigenous components might be easier with the Arjun MBT).

A little more research on my behalf would have helped I will go and read some more posts
I can understand that the points you make about the ARJUN not being your fathers tank(upgrades preformed over the 36 year development process)
funtz your points have swayed my opinion on the topic but i am still skeptical:unknown about a 36 year development time for any Armoured project.

 

[dragonfire]

However the military establishment will make them induct 124+124 tanks as its a home made thing (more than the options), and because they want the next generation tanks to be inducted to be made in India,

The one thing in favour of the Arjun tank at this point of time is that the Russians are not giving/allowing (transfer of) important technology involved in making the T-90 which is resulting in more delays in their induction. (its might just be easier to produce these tanks at home because agreements for indigenous production of components and their gradual replacement with totally indigenous components might be easier with the Arjun MBT).

On what are you basing this order of 124+124 (248) Arjun MBTanks, i havent seen any inputs on the same, there were reports of 45 to 124 tanks but not more, pl provide links if any

And also i think Russia did agree on full ToT for the T-90S and its weapon systems and since the domestic production is on dedicated lines of production i doubt if there are major delays as such. The deal with Russia was signed in 2001 and a 2.5 Billion USD order was given to the Ordinance Factory Board to produce 1000 T-90S Bhishma Tanks which by the way is also being built in Avadi, Tamil Nadu which is the same place where the Arjun MBTs are being made as well

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/T-90.html

 

[funtz]

On what are you basing this order of 124+124 (248) Arjun MBTanks, i havent seen any inputs on the same, there were reports of 45 to 124 tanks but not more, pl provide links if any

And also i think Russia did agree on full ToT for the T-90S and its weapon systems and since the domestic production is on dedicated lines of production i doubt if there are major delays as such. The deal with Russia was signed in 2001 and a 2.5 Billion USD order was given to the Ordinance Factory Board to produce 1000 T-90S Bhishma Tanks which by the way is also being built in Avadi, Tamil Nadu which is the same place where the Arjun MBTs are being made as well

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/T-90.html

The 124+124 tanks is my guess, as the Ministry of Defence is now in favour of procuring the Arjun MBTs and the army has failed to cancel the first 124 tanks, all the deals planed by the IA(T-72 upgrade included) go through MoD, they will as sure as me typing this stick the IA with a repeat order, No use setting up a whole production line that can not be converted to making cars for 124 tanks.
and the army will like to get more, they will have to set up facilities for the first 124, no use waisting away all of that.
The IA can delay the process by asking for some sort of upgrades however if they are going through with the first batch, no point doing that.

from your link

A first batch of 10 tanks - referred to as Bishma in the Indian Army - were delivered in the first week of January 2002. As per the February 2005 issue of Jane's Foreign Report 186 T-90 tanks were delivered by the end of 2002. As per the agreement, 120 tanks were delivered in a ready-for-use configuration, 90 in semi-knocked down (SKD) kits and the final 100 in completely-knocked down (CKD) kits. The SKD and CKD kits were assembled at the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) in Avadi, Tamil Nadu and the first tank was delivered to the Indian Army on 07 January 2004. The then incumbent-Chief of Army Staff, General Nirmal Chander Vij, stated that local production of the tank would begin in 2006-07, after the assembly of the CKD kits. He also stated that the T-90S MBT would constitute 30% of the Indian Army's combat tank force.

+ a new link

Russia yet to complete technology transfer of T-90 Bhishma tanks
22 October 2008

The Government informed Rajya Sabha members Amar Singh and Abu Asim Azmi that transfer of technology documents for indigenous production of Russian T-90 tanks (Indian Army designation Bhishma) have been received. It however clarified that other technical data relating to the manufacture of the gun barrel and armour plates were yet to be received.

Minister of state for defence, Rao Inderjit Singh, informed the members through a written reply that the matter was discussed during the meeting of the Indo-Russian working group on ship building, aviation and land systems in August, 2008 and that the Russian side had agreed to deliver the specification for the T-90 gun barrels by December 2008. As regards the armour plates, the minister said these had been developed indigenously.

http://www.domainb.com/defence/general/20081022_indian_army.html

Earlier, a top ordnance official had conceded that they were facing problems with Russia over Transfer of Technology (ToT) for the gun barrel and the 130 mm armour plating of the tank. While an effort has been made to develop the armour indigenously, India needs the technical specifications of the gun barrel from Russia to complete the ToT.
The hold up had resulted in a huge delay for indigenous production. Till February this year, only five T90 tanks had been produced in the country. India is supposed to manufacture over 1,000 T90 tanks under a complete ToT agreement with Moscow.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/india-russia-resolve-t90-technology-transfer-issues/350906/

The T-90 program is already delayed, and if the Russian firms present more problems it will keep on getting delayed.

 

[suryaaa]

Hi guys i was searching net for the current status of arjun ,i couldnt find anything apart from the t90 vs arjun comparative trials which may or may not occur .

Guys what actualy is arjuns problem apart from weight ,in paper it seems to be better than t90 according to the article below .Can anyone put there views please don't be patriotic .


Broadsword: Search results for arjun

 

[DavidDCM]

Latest stuff I read was this article from May 26, 2009:
Hindustan Times - Arjun rumbles to life, Army raises maiden regiment

I guess soon we'll read about the results of the October-November tests mentioned in that article.

The 45 tanks that have been deliverd are enough to equip the combat companies of that regiment. The total number for a fully equipped Indian armor regiment would be 62 tanks, with the 45 tanks in the combat companies and 17 tanks for training, replacement, etc.
As the article above is several months old, the regiment may or may not be fully equipped these days.

 

[suryaaa]

Hope so. Its widely known truth that t-90 is superior to arjun ,well according to the army.But in what ways can anyone put some points supporting that.The reason why army consider arjun as a dud project.

I have searched net and only thing i came across is this the logistics problem ,which is serious issue though,apart from that what else could be the reason ,any expert views.:jump

 

[shag]

Hope so. Its widely known truth that t-90 is superior to arjun ,well according to the army.But in what ways can anyone put some points supporting that.The reason why army consider arjun as a dud project.

I have searched net and only thing i came across is this the logistics problem ,which is serious issue though,apart from that what else could be the reason ,any expert views.:jump

Army's own views are quiet fractured. Folks from the 43rd Armoured, who are operating the the first regiment love the tank. Most of the Top brass and the people in DGMF/QA are quiet quick to rubbish it however, but I believe there is some corruption existing in the army acquisition process, and none of the corrupt men benefit from acquiring an indigenously produced tank.

There are also some people who have changed their opinion over time like Col. Ajai Shukla from broadsword who was one of the critics of the tank project in early part of the decade and has now turned around to supporting it.

Of course there are other opinions too, but they are mostly opinions influenced by one of the above sections.

 

[fixdeluxe1]

Indian Tanks Rebuttal

The Inian Arjun Tank - is it a big dissapointment or a serious effort ?

I beleive that the Arjun tank was a good concept that never really made it off the drawing board due to the fact india's manufacturing capablities are sub-par,especially in the context of defence.
They should either buff up and nationalize their domestic defence industry or continue to import russian arms.They should also open up dialouge and relations with china and strike a deal with norinco to supply them with some Type-90's,after all they only need be transported by train right to Dehli.

 

[shag]

I beleive that the Arjun tank was a good concept that never really made it off the drawing board due to the fact india's manufacturing capablities are sub-par,especially in the context of defence.
They should either buff up and nationalize their domestic defence industry or continue to import russian arms.They should also open up dialouge and relations with china and strike a deal with norinco to supply them with some Type-90's,after all they only need be transported by train right to Dehli.

Type-90s??? you have gotta be kidding me!!
You really believe an Army that has issues with accepting T-90s can be convinced to accept a Chinese Type-90 tank!!

I am also guessing you have no clue about India-China relationship or history or the non-existent rail link, not that shipping would matter in such a defence deal!! Please read up a little!

Of course Arjun was never manufactured by India's Private sector to begin with the HVF is a govt owned enterprise. In India its the private sector which performs better than govt. enterprises. If the private sector which is very competitive here, was building the defence equipment we wouldnt have had so much trouble with Quality Controls and efficiency etc. because ti would be a more competitive environment.

Fortunately now the defence industries sector is being opened up for private sector and we are already seeing active participation and better quality products.

 

[Feanor]

fixdeluxe I'm inclined to agree with shag. Type-90s are not even a production model tank. You're either referring to the Al-Khalid (technically the Type-90-IIM), Type-96, or T-90S (in which case T does not stand for type, it stands for tank).

 

[dragonfire]

I beleive that the Arjun tank was a good concept that never really made it off the drawing board due to the fact india's manufacturing capablities are sub-par,especially in the context of defence.
They should either buff up and nationalize their domestic defence industry or continue to import russian arms.They should also open up dialouge and relations with china and strike a deal with norinco to supply them with some Type-90's,after all they only need be transported by train right to Dehli.

Am sorry but you barely have a clue about what you are talking about Admin. Play nice

a. Arjun has recieved orders and is already operational
b. Arjun didnt recieve orders in the past beacuse (1) Army's changing requirements and (2) the natural progression of a indegenious product development
c. India has decent manuufacturing capabilitites and they arent sub standard, however a lot needs to be desired in terms of design capabilitties and complete technology development - that said Indian defence has grown by leaps and bounds in the recent past in terms of indigenious development
d. India defense industry has till now been dominated by DRDO and it allied Public Sector Undertakings, however there are a number of private players who have entered and started succesfuly been delivering (latest e.g. is the INS Arihant's hull was manufactured by a prominent private engineering firm). India is increasingly engaging private firms in the defense industry
e. Without getting into your suggestion of Chinese equipment finding into the Indian Military, you must understand the regional geo-politics. China and Pakistan are traditional allies and have a great multi-product partnership in development etc, however i must add China and India are trying to inrease defence cooperation what with combined excercises and all

 

[eckherl]

fixdeluxe I'm inclined to agree with shag. Type-90s are not even a production model tank. You're either referring to the Al-Khalid (technically the Type-90-IIM), Type-96, or T-90S (in which case T does not stand for type, it stands for tank).

One should add that Japan also has a production Type-90 tank, but they will not be selling them on the world market anytime soon nor any other type of weapons system for that matter.

 

[eckherl]

Am sorry but you barely have a clue about what you are talking about

a. Arjun has recieved orders and is already operational
b. Arjun didnt recieve orders in the past beacuse (1) Army's changing requirements and (2) the natural progression of a indegenious product development
c. India has decent manuufacturing capabilitites and they arent sub standard, however a lot needs to be desired in terms of design capabilitties and complete technology development - that said Indian defence has grown by leaps and bounds in the recent past in terms of indigenious development
d. India defense industry has till now been dominated by DRDO and it allied Public Sector Undertakings, however there are a number of private players who have entered and started succesfuly been delivering (latest e.g. is the INS Arihant's hull was manufactured by a prominent private engineering firm). India is increasingly engaging private firms in the defense industry
e. Without getting into your suggestion of Chinese equipment finding into the Indian Military, you must understand the regional geo-politics. China and Pakistan are traditional allies and have a great multi-product partnership in development etc, however i must add China and India are trying to inrease defence cooperation what with combined excercises and all

I am in total agreement with you, India has come a long way in regards to their weapons research and development and they have the best of both worlds so to speak, everyone seems eager to offer assistance if they have a need for it.

 

[fixdeluxe1]

Fortunately now the defence industries sector is being opened up for private sector and we are already seeing active participation and better quality products.

I think you are mislead in stating the fact that there is a non-existent rail link.They actually constructed the link a little while ago through tibet.Also Sino-Indian Relations are improving which is the point I was reffering to.Unless you haven't noticed Bejing and Delhi are planning a Joint Military Exercise although thats only in it's infancy.I do have to also state that indias arms industry is improving but the United States(as much as I disagree with their capitalist foreign policy)has stated that india is set to become the largest arms "IMPORTER" rather than "Manufacurer" or "Exporter".It is said it will spend over $50Billion in 2020 on procurement of foreign weapons.

Needless to say the Indian Army Posses 1,500 T-90's and 2,000+ T-72's which it plans to keep & upgrade in 2020.They have less than 50 operational Arjun Tanks so that's quite a benchmark in terms of the amount of "foreign weapons" they have purchased and aquired.

 

[fixdeluxe1]

Am sorry but you barely have a clue about what you are talking about

a. Arjun has recieved orders and is already operational
b. Arjun didnt recieve orders in the past beacuse (1) Army's changing requirements and (2) the natural progression of a indegenious product development
c. India has decent manuufacturing capabilitites and they arent sub standard, however a lot needs to be desired in terms of design capabilitties and complete technology development - that said Indian defence has grown by leaps and bounds in the recent past in terms of indigenious development
d. India defense industry has till now been dominated by DRDO and it allied Public Sector Undertakings, however there are a number of private players who have entered and started succesfuly been delivering (latest e.g. is the INS Arihant's hull was manufactured by a prominent private engineering firm). India is increasingly engaging private firms in the defense industry
e. Without getting into your suggestion of Chinese equipment finding into the Indian Military, you must understand the regional geo-politics. China and Pakistan are traditional allies and have a great multi-product partnership in development etc, however i must add China and India are trying to inrease defence cooperation what with combined excercises and all

Read the reply to the other User and you will understand more where I am coming from.

 

[Feanor]

I think you are mislead in stating the fact that there is a non-existent rail link.They actually constructed the link a little while ago through tibet.Also Sino-Indian Relations are improving which is the point I was reffering to.Unless you haven't noticed Bejing and Delhi are planning a Joint Military Exercise although thats only in it's infancy.I do have to also state that indias arms industry is improving but the United States(as much as I disagree with their capitalist foreign policy)has stated that india is set to become the largest arms "IMPORTER" rather than "Manufacurer" or "Exporter".It is said it will spend over $50Billion in 2020 on procurement of foreign weapons.

Needless to say the Indian Army Posses 1,500 T-90's and 2,000+ T-72's which it plans to keep & upgrade in 2020.They have less than 50 operational Arjun Tanks so that's quite a benchmark in terms of the amount of "foreign weapons" they have purchased and aquired.

So you're seriously arguing in favor of a Chinese tank purchase for India?