The Arjun Tank

[Waylander]

What would India gain from an import of Chinese systems compared to an import of Russian systems or western help for their own systems?

They have good relations with Russia when it comes to weapons imports with the Russians not meddling into their affairs.
The help of certain western companies for their own systems helps them to develop their own industry.

Chinese systems would just lead to them being dependent on one of their biggest rivals in the region without helping them to become independent from foreign suppliers.

 

[dragonfire]

Read the reply to the other User and you will understand more where I am coming from.

Try and refrain from making sweeping statements which are untrue

I beleive that the Arjun tank was a good concept that never really made it off the drawing board due to the fact india's manufacturing capablities are sub-par,especially in the context of defence.
They should either buff up and nationalize their domestic defence industry or continue to import russian arms

If you are stating that India needs to do more in indigenious development - then i am in agreement. India has started it with Arjun, LCA, Dhruv, INSAS, Arihant, Nag etc etc without contesting the success of these if one has to see it then India has made efforts and is on the way to gain and do more in designing and developing it's own products, which is why even when it remains one the biggest millitary importers it is trying to get full ToT for it's purchases so as to supplement its own capabilitites.

Indian Military is on the path to modernisation for which it is looking to add the latest technologies and products in it's acquisitions and for this they are looking at the best platforms in the world which is why it has a $50 billion dollar (in some places its quoted as 100 Billion USD) program, which inludes best in class 4th Gen fighters (MMRCA), Conventional submarines (Scorpene deal + to be finalised Project 75 a/b for 6 more subs), Tanks (T-90 and comparitively small no of Arjun tanks), Ships (Advanced talwar class, kolkata class etc ), the Su-30 MKI program etc

In most cases India doesnt have its own domestic product to compete with the other international choices (except perhaps in the case of Arjun), like India doesnt have its own medium 4th gen fighter or its own conventional subs etc. But it is doing the best it can to reduce import costs and increase domestic knowledge base. In case of fighters it always will use HAL to assemble-from-parts for newly acquired fighters (MKI and MMRCA program) and also to then completely build it in India with ToT from the sellers, the MKI program now has apparently got 80% of domestic content. India has also started to do shared product development as is in the case of the 5th Gen Fighter development with Russia, BrahMos missile etc.

One most also understand that India has come into being as an economic power only from 1992 onwards when India started i't's economic liberlisation policies and has got the moolah to spend. And now more private defence companies are forming and the same is being encouraged by the MoD.

Coming back to the Arjun's case there have been endless debates comparing T-90 vs Arjun with both getting bashed and hurrahed, so i will not get into it but will only state this. The only user of the MBT in the Indian Military is the Indian Army. The official and latest stand is that the Arjun is a good tank for which an order of 124 tanks has already been given to HVF and the same is being fullilled, however the IA is looking for a more advanced and futuristic tank for it's future requirements (which will come into being long after the deliveries of T-90s and Arjuns are completed)

And as far as Chinese tanks in India - you are benefiting from replies from other memebers of this forum and no one is backing it yet, but the defence cooperation is increasing as part of a larger diplomatic policy btw the the two nations - my opinion is that it aint gonna happen (abt the tank purchase)

 

[shag]

I think you are mislead in stating the fact that there is a non-existent rail link.They actually constructed the link a little while ago through tibet.Also Sino-Indian Relations are improving which is the point I was reffering to.Unless you haven't noticed Bejing and Delhi are planning a Joint Military Exercise although thats only in it's infancy.I do have to also state that indias arms industry is improving but the United States(as much as I disagree with their capitalist foreign policy)has stated that india is set to become the largest arms "IMPORTER" rather than "Manufacurer" or "Exporter".It is said it will spend over $50Billion in 2020 on procurement of foreign weapons.

There is a rail link to tibet but it is not the same thing as rail link to India my friend. Tibetean plateau is relatively flat and its easy to construct a rail link to tibet, but sheer topography and geosesmic activity in the region on Indian side literally makes it incredibly difficult if not impossible to construct a rail link through there. India is also contructing a rail link along the border although it is costing us a lot more than what it would cost the chinese. If you have been to the region you would understand what i am talking about. We can end this pointless discussion if you could provide a reference to a india china rail link, but I assure you there isn't any.
There is improving co-operation with China on counter terrorism front but fact remains that India and China will remain strategic rivals, especially in the light of the fact that China still aids and abets India's primary source of terror attacks and it does everything it can to "contain" India, examples include the string of pearls policy, the blocking of ADB loan etc.
So yeah talking about a Chinese product in Indian military is far fetched.

 

[aaaditya]

One should add that Japan also has a production Type-90 tank, but they will not be selling them on the world market anytime soon nor any other type of weapons system for that matter.

i have always wondered why japan does not sell its defence equipment to other countries,particularly to india with which it has a cordial relationship and as both countries face a common threat,iam sure it would considerably reduce the unit price of their indigenous equipment and make them available in larger numbers to their own armed forces.

 

[kay_man]

i have always wondered why japan does not sell its defence equipment to other countries,particularly to india with which it has a cordial relationship and as both countries face a common threat,iam sure it would considerably reduce the unit price of their indigenous equipment and make them available in larger numbers to their own armed forces.

is the type-90 really so much better than the Arjun mbt...............i dont think it is.
if the army wants to go in for a futuristic mbt rather than the arjun mbt ..where does the type-90 fit in?

 

[aaaditya]

is the type-90 really so much better than the Arjun mbt...............i dont think it is.
if the army wants to go in for a futuristic mbt rather than the arjun mbt ..where does the type-90 fit in?

i meant in general terms,if given a choice i would prefer the latest south korean main battle tank design or the latest russian design.

 

[pratyush]

is the type-90 really so much better than the Arjun mbt...............i dont think it is.
if the army wants to go in for a futuristic mbt rather than the arjun mbt ..where does the type-90 fit in?

yes the type-90 is better than the arjun... but i think the army should consider the leopold if they want to go for a purchase..
reports suggest that the army is unhappy with arjun and may go for t-90s

 

[Feanor]

I'm not sure which type-90 you guys are talking about.... but I hope you realize that the Arjun program isn't about getting the best tank, it's about developing domestic capacity.

 

[eckherl]

i have always wondered why japan does not sell its defence equipment to other countries,particularly to india with which it has a cordial relationship and as both countries face a common threat,iam sure it would considerably reduce the unit price of their indigenous equipment and make them available in larger numbers to their own armed forces.

Pretty much a vow that was taken by Japan after WW2, weapons sales are forbidden by their Constitution. Good to see you back posting again.

 

[shag]

Maybe the current economic situation will make them reconsider. They do have some serious hardware!

 

[aaaditya]

Pretty much a vow that was taken by Japan after WW2, weapons sales are forbidden by their Constitution. Good to see you back posting again.

thanks,

i wonder how long can japan stick to its vow,considering the changing global scenario as well as high cost of independent defence research and development.

by the way do you know of any joint venture projects that japan has with other countries.

they had recently signed an agreement with india for closer defence co-operation,i wonder what is the scope of this agreement and wether it includes joint defence research and development.

 

[shag]

by the way do you know of any joint venture projects that japan has with other countries.

their fighter is a heavier derivative of the F-16 made with a good lot of input from LM. Most of their equipment uses US tech too AFAIK.

 

[eckherl]

thanks,

i wonder how long can japan stick to its vow,considering the changing global scenario as well as high cost of independent defence research and development.

by the way do you know of any joint venture projects that japan has with other countries.

they had recently signed an agreement with india for closer defence co-operation,i wonder what is the scope of this agreement and wether it includes joint defence research and development.

@Shag is correct inregards to the aviation aspect, but I would like to add that there should also be U.S cooperation inregards to electronic technology for naval and missile advancements.

Smart move for Japan to reach out to countries like India and Australia I should add for closer miilitary ties, I feel that cooperation in the electronic field will be of great assistance for India with their military projects, it seems that they are trying to lesson assistance from Russia.

 

[shag]

I think they have atleast one AEGIS equiped cruiser IIRC.

I agree on india-japan ties. Besides India has old ties with Japan. I think the relations have a capacity to be expanded lot more than the current state of the relationship. There are so many common interests to be explored.

 

[aaaditya]

I think they have atleast one AEGIS equiped cruiser IIRC.

I agree on india-japan ties. Besides India has old ties with Japan. I think the relations have a capacity to be expanded lot more than the current state of the relationship. There are so many common interests to be explored.

i feel that both india and japan are not exploring fully the potential of their defence relationship ,except for a couple of good will visits by the navy and the coast guards of both the nations ,there does'nt seem to be much going on,no joint airforce or army excercises on a bilateral basis.

iam sure india can learn a lot from japan in terms of amphibious warfare and disaster management considering that they are the only nation to have suffered a nuclear catastrophe and their considerable experience of the world war-2.

japan on the other hand can hone their skills in desert warfare,counter insurgency jungle warfare etc.

it would also be quite interesting to pit the japanese tank designs with the arjun and to learn from the strengths and drawbacks from both the desgns.

i believe that india can improve their tank movement skills in the urban areas by learning from the way the japanese move their battle tanks,which are quite heavy like the arjun and the logistics involved in such operations.

 

[shag]

One thing I don't understand is why id they give so much of ground clearance on Arjun. Tanks don't need so much ground clearance and if some of it was done away with we could have a lot lower profile. I am surprised nobody has mentioned this anywhere.

 

[Scout140]

shouldn't have problem getting tech support over the phone!

seriously though, it's a decent piece of machinery, good for domestic use. Good for the economy too. I dunno how it would fair in a competative market though.

The indians are grabbing a bunch of T-90's though, aren't they? It doesn't seem like this will be the main effort for them.

 

[questboy]

arjun tank is which is one of the most advanced tank,comparable to western tank,does face some problems such as over weight,engine problems,fire control system are there any solutions for this if please recommend.my personal view is that tank weight can reduced by using composite material or using titanium(i know titanium is costly)but india has 1/6 of world titanium.it can reduce the cost by mass production.engine can made as wankel engine and fcs can be computer controlled and with auto load it will be more lighter or the most possible system is developing a active protection system. please tell best possible solution.

 

[dragonfire]

arjun tank is which is one of the most advanced tank,comparable to western tank,does face some problems such as over weight,engine problems,fire control system are there any solutions for this if please recommend.my personal view is that tank weight can reduced by using composite material or using titanium(i know titanium is costly)but india has 1/6 of world titanium.it can reduce the cost by mass production.engine can made as wankel engine and fcs can be computer controlled and with auto load it will be more lighter or the most possible system is developing a active protection system. please tell best possible solution.

The Arjun Tank is not "overweight". The Tank's designers designed the tank to be so. The Arjun MBT is 'heavier' than T-90. I have tabulated below some of the MBT in use today with their weights and country of origin. The issue raised for the Arjun MBT's weight was that it would be difficult to transport the tanks via rail, but that issue was solved in 2006 with the induction of stronger Arjun specific rail wagons

Arjun MBT - 58.5 tonnes - India
Leopard MBT - 62.3 tonnes - Germany
M1 Abrams - 67.6 tonnes - USA
Challenger 2 - 62.5 tonnes - UK
K1A1 - 60.1 tonnes - South Korea
Leclerc - 54.5 tonnes - France
Merkava - 65 tonnes - Israel
Type 90 - 50.2 tonnes - Japan
Type 99 - 54-75tonnes - China
Al Khalid - 47 tonnes - Pakistan/China
T-90 - 46.5 tonnes - Russia
Type 96 - 42.8 tonnes - China
T-72 - 41.5 tonnes - Russia
PT-91 Twardy - 45.9 tonnes - Poland
T-80 - 46 tonnes - Soviet Union

If the issue was with weight then the point of discussion should be the Power to weight ratio. The Arjun has a good rating here. However all discussions are moot as the IA has placed an order for 124 Arjun MBTs and then capped the order stating that the next tank it will purchase will have to be relevant in the 2020 time frame and therefore futuristic

 

[Feanor]

The Arjun will be quite relevant in the 2020 timeframe imo. I'm pretty sure the Chiense Type-99 and the Russian T-90 will still be around. Some M1s will probably remain. And it's roughly in the same class.