Indonesia: 'green water navy'

[Wooki]

Hi wooki

Your example makes my point. The outriggers are amidships not aft and you have a similar balance of bouyance foreard and aft. This vessel is more akin the the MV Triton the the indonesian example. Teh yacht is still pretty light construction and I would expect it to have operating restrictions.

The design proposed in the thread has long thin bow all forward of the outriggers and has diminsihishing bow height,

In slight seas will will cut trough the waves (piecing) but as soon as the swell gets up (and if it is a short swell) it will start to bury the bow and then resistance will actully reduce speed.

Even in long swells of moderate or greater size long thin hulls will tend to bury the bow and the stern when the vessel is in a trough as there is limted bouyance aft.

I'm not arguing with Alex. I'm saying that there have been a number of monohull designs that take advantage of what you describe. It is unfortunate that I can't find an example. But it has been done before.

Its pretty simple to do, as it really is along the lines of the original torpedo boats before they made them submarines.

The only real issue is increased maintenance, as the engines don't like being starved of air as the platform punches through the swell. Essentially you need schnorkel tech. The other issue is that you need to spend more money on the superstructure, armored glass and what not, but that is not as big a deal as the increased maintenance of the power plant.

As to the LCF, the little pontoons aft are at the exit of the monohull. So it's six of one and half dozen of the other. If you are worried about it, you just make the monohull sleeker.

So, my assessment is that I can see what the designers are trying to do, but there are better ways to do it. I just don't have the time to do a patent search and find the flared chines I was speaking of so you can get rid of the pontoons.


cheers


w

edit

w

ps: and we must have posted at the same time, as I missed your points on following seas and talking about pontoon position. A semi submersible like this design is fast. If it stops or slows down enough that a following sea can catch up to it it becomes a vomit rocket.

Maybe that is what the pontoons aft are for (to provide stability when she is stopped).Who knows?

 

[gvg]

Has anyone read anything more about this in Indonesian media?

The Netherlands Ready to Help with Battleships

TEMPO Interactive, Jakarta:The deputy speaker of the House of Representatives (DPR),Muhaimin Iskandar, said the Dutch government was reviewing a plan to assist Indonesia with providing battleships. “We have opened the opportunity to collaborate with with the Dutch senate which will be
discussed with the government,” Muhaimin said after receiving the Dutch delegation led by Senate Leader Y.M. Yvonne E.M.A. Timmerman Buck at the MPR/DPR building yesterday.

The DPR, Muhaimin said, had conveyed its urgent need of battleships to secure the nation against foreign attacks or illegal exploitation of Indonesia’s marine zones.

However, Muhaimin said, the discussion did not mention the kind or number of battleships to be loaned. Further details of the collaboration were to be discussed by the executive branch.

Muhaimin further said that besides the battleships, the DPR has asked for Dutch support in the area of technology transfer in ship manufacturing to enable the state-owned PT PAL to improve the quality of its products.

The Dutch Senate, according to Muhaimin, welcomed the collaboration to be discussed by their governments. “Such joint-venture is important,”he said. Collaboration in food production will also be discussed,Muhaimin added.

Tempointeraktif.com - The Netherlands Ready to Help with Battleships

 

[Ananda]

Has anyone read anything more about this in Indonesian media?

Gvg, this is nothing new, so not much talk locally (heck it's even not mentioned much). This's nothing much than some political support by the dutch to 'push' for Damen-Schelde Sigma design win the local projects with PAL for Light Frigates. They'are competting with Fincantieri Commandante design.
The deccission should come out in June but, considering this's the ellection time, I personally doubt any decission will come out soon. But will see.

 

[gvg]

aha...thanks.

English news about the TNI-AL is often a bit 'vague' (at least to me).

 

[Ananda]

Finally, Two Submarines by 2011

From : http://www.militarium.eu/article.aspx?ID=2962

Jakarta (ANTARA News) - Indonesian Navy Chief of Staff Admiral Tedjo Edhy Purdijatno has expressed hope that two new submarines would arrive soon in the next two years. Asked for confirmation here on Sunday, the Navy chief of staff said the procurement process of the two submarines has been discussed by the Defense Ministry.

"Technical specification and the operation requirement have been submitted to the Defense Ministry for discussion," Tejo Edhy said, expressing hope that the ministry this month would decide where the submarines would be procured from.

Indonesia has earlier opened a tender for the procurement of two submarines in 2010-2014 from several countries such as Germany, South Korea, Russia, and France.

"If the Defense Ministry decides the country the Navy will get the submarine from, then the contract will be signed immediately to procure the two submarine soon," Tedjo said.

From the Indonesian articles versions, the Navy Commander said that from 4 nations that forward the proposal (Germany, France, South Korea, and Russia), the choices strongly favor South Korea and Russia due to their financing scheme and their scope willingness for ToT.

The Navy strongly wants U 214. However with South Korea seems favoured compare to Germany, It's open to questions whether the South Korean licenses for U 214 from HDW can also open for them to provide U 214.

Sources also says that eventhough Russia put Kilo on their proposal, but what the navy really wants from them's Amur.

Budget put at USD 700 mio for two subs.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Thanks, at least some informative news after all those strange comments like "The Indon Navy has made it pretty clear to australia that it needs assistance in developing appropriate force capability and develop new doctrine.
She has over 7000 islands, and no infrastructure "

Hopefully these plans becomes reality.
I expect it will be the Project 636 or Korean Type 209, Type 214 is maybe too expensive? Or has it almost the same price as the Russian Kilo's?
But if Korea wins, i hope it wouldn't be some lightly modified 209-1300...

Russia, Korea to fight for RI submarine contract
The Jakarta Post | Mon, 08/10/2009 11:06 PM | National

The Indonesian Navy has shortlisted Russia and South Korea in a bid to purchase two submarines worth US$700 million (US$ 7 trillion) for the force.

Navy chief Adm. Tedjo Edhy Purdijatno said Monday he expected the procurement project tender process to be completed soon and hoped the submarines would be operational by 2012.

“We have determined the specifications of the submarines, including their capabilities and their deterrent effects, which must exceed those of the neighboring countries. If the specifications cannot be met, we would rather cancel the purchase,” Tedjo said.

Russia and South Korea beat France and Germany in the tender process.

Tedjo said the purchase would be funded by foreign loans extended to Indonesia between 2004 and 2009.

 

[Ananda]

yep..even with the Navy Chief clearly stated they wants submarines that technologically and combat spesifications at par with the regional subs (thus it means the new Singaporean rufurbished A 17 and Malaysian Scorpenes...I ommited Australian Collins because it's different class of subs)..but somehow I do not see the navy will get they prefered U 214. Hopefully I'm wrong. Another 209 (Changbogo) or Kilo (which expensive to maintain and 80's - 90's technology) not really provide substantial additional technological capability to Submarine force, from what they already had.

I think this will be a package deal. If the south korean win, it will be package with other deals in Aircraft, Armoured Vehicles and Surrface Ships. Same as goes with Russia.
Currently only this two countries that offering packages deal with us, and also with enough ToT for local industries.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

yep..even with the Navy Chief clearly stated they wants submarines that technologically and combat spesifications at par with the regional subs (thus it means the new Singaporean rufurbished A 17 and Malaysian Scorpenes...I ommited Australian Collins because it's different class of subs)..but somehow I do not see the navy will get they prefered U 214. Hopefully I'm wrong. Another 209 (Changbogo) or Kilo (which expensive to maintain and 80's - 90's technology) not really provide substantial additional technological capability to Submarine force, from what they already had.

I think this will be a package deal. If the south korean win, it will be package with other deals in Aircraft, Armoured Vehicles and Surrface Ships. Same as goes with Russia.
Currently only this two countries that offering packages deal with us, and also with enough ToT for local industries.

Afaik the 636 is capable to be armed with anti-ship missiles, we really need that. Two additional Type 209's is just a improvement in quantity.

Sejak dua minggu setiap hari ada dua truk dari Korps Marinir dari Sukabumi menuju Palabuhan Ratu yg berisi dgn militer asing/bule, sepertinya tentara AS. Ada seorang disini yg tau, ini utk latihan apa?

 

[Ananda]

PT. PAL Helicopter Design. Simmilarity with Meko/BVN

Last December Indodefence, the Indonesian State Shipyard PT. PAL, put a helicopter carrier design. I didn't connect with the design which seems quite funny, and not want to be overnasionalistic (like many military enthusiast in local forums), since I don't see much experiences from PT. PAL on designing something like this, and also preliminary technical info still scatchy

However, few days ago from another forum, I saw this Eurodefence articles from last year august which show Meko MESHD concept. This article predates the PAL concepts, and show much similarity with PAL design. Considering BVN is a reputable and much experiences naval contractors, don't see much difficulty on where the PAL Design generate the ideas comming from.

http://www.europeansecurityanddefen...Ball%e9/Bohlayer_Ball%e9_Kaeding_ESD_0308.pdf

It's not a first time PAL generate their design from established International naval contractors since and considering many previous PAL naval design comming from Germany, and it's very likely BVN and PAL, already have communications before.

Not that I can see this will come in any fruition soon, but seems the BVN design modullar approach offred some flexibilities needed by smaller Navy on conducting multipurpose activities in cheaper ways than established LPH/LHD design.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

As you can see on the attached picture, the LHD is based on the Star 50 ( A dry cargo vessel, DOUBLE SKIN BULK CARRIER 50.000 DWT) design. So the hull shouldn't be a problem for PAL.

But i dont think our government will place an order the coming 10 years for such a ship, In the next two years we will have 5 brandnew LPDs in our fleet (termasuk KRI Tanjung Dalpele 972/dr Soeharso 990, KRI Makassar 590 dan KRI Surabaya 591 yang bisa membawa 2 heli), beside our 18LSTs...

 

[Ananda]

Sandhi Yudha, for any shipyard worth to mentioned building a large hull should not be the problem. However building a hull in modern naval constructions now perhaps only 30% of work.
What I'm getting on is PAL does not have much experienced for modular large naval design. That's why after reading the articles on BVN/Meko's design seems begin to connects where the ideas on that multipurpose design by PAL comming from.

But I agree, this will not comming to fruition anytime soon by PAL. Any naval projects that's going to be in priority will be the large corvetes/light frigates.
Just seems to me this design show cheaper ways for smaller navies to have multipurpose amphibious capabilities than existing LHD/LPH.
Off course will not be spain's/navantia Juan Carlos or franchies ones..but perhaps can do 75% job on 50% cheaper ships.
Perhaps BVN will found other smaller Navy that's interested...like South Africa perhaps..

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Yes indeed, what about the status of the Korvet Nasional project based on the Commandante Class built by Fincantieri?

Some good news: 402 will be send to Korea next month:

Kapal Selam Mulai Perbaikan

BULAN Depan, Tentara Nasional Indonesia (TNI) Angkatan Laut akan mengirimkan kapal selam, KRI Nanggala-402 ke Ockpo, Korea Selatan. Nanggala akan menjalani perbaikan menyeluruh (overhaul) di Daewoo Shipbuilding and Marine Engineering.

"Prosesnya memakan waktu 22 bulan," kata Kepala Staf TNI AL Laksamana Tedjo Edhy Purdijatno di kediaman dinasnya di Jakarta, Minggu (23/8).

Perbaikan akan meliputi bangunan kapal, peralatan navigasi, peralatan komunikasi, sistem kendali senjata, diesel generator, serta penggantian sejumlah komponen radar dan sonar dengan peralatan baru.

Tedjo mengatakan, perbaikan akan mengembalikan kemampuan kapal selam tipe 209 buatan Jerman tahun 1980 itu.

"Syukur-syukur kekuatannya bisa sama dengan kapal keluaran terbaru," katanya.

Kepala Dinas Penerangan TNI AL, Laksamana Pertama Iskandar Sitompul mengatakan, anggaran yang dikucurkan untuk perbaikan Nanggala tidak beda jauh dengan perbaikan Cakra. Nilai kontraknya mencapai US$60 juta (sekitar Rp550 miliar).

 

[Ananda]

Yes indeed, what about the status of the Korvet Nasional project based on the Commandante Class built by Fincantieri?

Some good news: 402 will be send to Korea next month:

Same Old same old...No decission come out yet on whether we will use Dutch (Sigma) design, or Italian (Fincantieri) or Russian (Streguschny) derived design.
All indication only say it will be decided pararel with decision on Submarines and replacement for OV 10 and Hawk Mk 53 Trainers.

Should be in last June, then move to end of August, but I'm not surprised will be move again after Ied Fitri (end of Sept) or by End of October after new Administrations.. which probbaly then will be revise again by the new administrations and parlement (regardless we still have same president)..

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

PT PAL wants to develop a 105 m long corvette/fregat, but all big aquisitions are suspended by the government to 2011......so dont expect to much.

PT PAL Incar Proyek Kapal Pengawal Rudal TNI



Perusak Kawal Rudal 105 m, panjang kapal 105 m, lebar 14 m, berat 2400 ton, kecepatan maksimal 30 knot, jelajah 18 knot, ekonomis 14 knot, jarak jelajah 5000 nm, waktu berlayar 12 hari, jumlah awak 120 orang (sumber: PT PAL).

6 Agustus 2009, Jakarta -- PT PAL Indonesia tengah mengincar proyek pembuatan kapal pengawal rudal milik TNI Angkatan Laut. Nilai kapal tersebut ditaksir mencapai EUR 170 juta.

"Ada rencana TNI AL membutuhkan kapal itu dan kami berharap bisa dibuat di PAL," ujar Direktur Utama PAL Indonesia Harsusanto di kantor Kementerian Badan Usaha Milik Negara (BUMN), Jalan Medan Merdeka Selatan, Jakarta, Rabu, 26 Agustus 2009.

Menurut Harsusanto, Departemen Pertahanan (Dephan) telah membuat pembelian (procurement) tentang pengadaan kapal tersebut. Kebutuhan pendanaan untuk proyek kapal itu akan diperoleh dari kredit ekspor. "Belum ada perusahaan yang ditunjuk.Diharapkan ada alih teknologi dari perusahaan yang menang," katanya.

PAL tahun ini menargetkan produksi kapal sebanyak enam unit. Rencananya bulan ini, perusahaan akan menyerahkan satu unit kapal jenis Landing Platform Deck (LPD) dilanjutkan peluncuran kapal tanker tanker pada 3 September 2009.

Selanjutnya pada November-Desember 2009, PAL juga akan menyerahkan tiga unit kapal cepat 28 meter milik Bea Cukai dan dua unit kapal jenis escorttug untuk proyek Tangguh.

Lebih lanjut, Hersusanto mengatakan program restrukturisasi PAL sudah memperoleh persetujuan dari Menteri Keuangan. Saat ini pihaknya tinggal menyelesaikan administrasi antara PAL dan PT Perusahaan Pengelola Aset (PPA).

"Kami akan mengundang PPA ke PAL minggu depan untuk merampungkan administrasinya," katanya.

Harsusanto menambahkan jika masalah administrasi tersebut dapat diselesaikan dalam waktu seminggu, proses pencairan suntikan modal dapat segera dilakukan pada awal September 2009.

PAL sendiri akan memperoleh tambahan modal sekitar US$44 juta yang akan digunakan untuk modal kerja pada divisi pemeliharan, perbaikan, engineering, dan divisi pembangunan kapal.

Sumber: vivanews

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Bad news, aquisition of new stategic weaponsystems cancelled.

Monday, September 07, 2009
Pengadaan Alutsista Strategis Ditunda Hingga 2011


JAKARTA - Menteri Pertahanan Juwono Sudarsono menyatakan, pengadaan alutsista strategis seperti kapal selam baru mulai diadakan pada 2011.

"Hal itu sesuai pesan presiden kepada Menhan bahwa fokus kabinet baru 2009-2011 adalah mengatasi kemiskinan dan pembangunan infrastruktur. Semua pengadaan alutsista strategis yang mahal, baru akan teken kontrak mulai 2011," katanya, kepada ANTARA di Jakarta, Minggu (6/9).

Ia menegaskan, dalam pengembangan kemampuan pertahanan negara baru akan difokuskan pada pengadaan alutsista angkut, seperti kapal angkut dan pesawat angkut, belum pada alutsista yang bersifat strategis tempur seperti kapal selam dan pesawat tempur.

Other news...

Quote:
TNI wants 100 new speedboats
The Jakarta Post | Mon, 09/07/2009 9:50 AM | National

The Indonesian Military (TNI) said Monday it wanted to have 100 new speedboats to protect Indonesian waters near the border with neighboring countries.

"Most of them will be placed near our borders with the Philippines," TNI Chief Gen. Djoko Santoso said as quoted by kompas.com.

Kompas.com also reported that border areas between Indonesia and the Philippines were prone to smuggling and terrorism activities as the security was too loose there.

 

[gf0012-aust]

2nd Time I've had to remind in this thread.

This is an international forum where the forum language is english. Please post articles in english, or translated within the body of text.

posts that do not comply will be deleted.

respectfully. gf

 

[Ananda]

1st Local Build LPD will Finally Submitted to the Navy

It's from Google translations, so the english sometimes rather funnies However what quite interesting was the mentioned of French design as contender for Light Frigates (or in here called Missiles Destroyer Escort/PKR) candidates.
The submission of Damen Sigma 105 and Fincantieri Commandante as strong candidates has been around for sometimes. However French design (DCNS Gowind ??) is quite new. Many sources in here expect the third players will be Russian Streguschny, still it seems Gowind comeout late as possible strong contenders.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
JAKARTA - . Chief of Naval Staff (Navy Chief of Staff) Admiral Tedjo Edhy Purdijatno says, PAL promise handed tactical carrier in September.

. "Because the assignment was postponed 11 times," he said after attending the book launch of former Navy Chief of Staff, Admiral (ret) Sumardjono in Jakarta, Tuesday (14 / 7) evening.

Tedjo said, LPD development is the realization of technology transfer from the ship design, Daewoo of South Korea. . The Navy ordered four ships LPD. The first two ships, KRI KRI Surabaya and Makassar, made in that ginseng country and has alreadt operating.

Two of the last ship built at PT PAL, Surabaya, with full assistance from Korea. The fourth ship plan be handed in January 2010.

Tedjo said that, after the LPD, is expected to be included PAL building missile destroyer escort (PKR). Currently, the TNI AL explore the producing countries who are committed to technology transfer. Several nominees, France, the Netherlands (Sigma-105 Class), and Italy (Commandate Class). "We still weighed the best options," said Naval Academy graduate in 1975's.

Source: jurnas

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

I think we need something like the SIGMA 10513 more than the Italian design. The Commandante class is nothing more than a OPV.
The SIGMA 9113 is a nice class of corvettes, it has a good sensor and EW system, but it lacks a capable air defence system. Some manpads are insufficiently to take down seaskimmers. We need atleast something with a Goalkeeper or Seawolf.

The SIGMA Class Multi-Mission Frigates will be extended versions of the existing SIGMA ships by adding one or two modules. The contract includes one ship in length 105 m, delivery after 44 months, and two ships of 98 m in length, delivery after 50 and 56 months, all with commonality in the systematic arrangement including a state of the art Combat System with ASW, SuW, AAW and EW capabilities.



Dimensions
SIGMA 9813
SIGMA 10513


Length over all
97.91 m
105.11 m
Pielstick twin diesel propulsion

Breadth over all
13.02 m
13.02 m


Displacement
2100 tonnes
2300 tonnes

Accommodation
91
110

Weaponsystems
Oto Melara main gun
MBDA Exocet and MICA VLS


Flightdeck and hangar for medium size helicopter Eurotorp torpedo launchers

MICA VLS...sounds better than a couple of Mistrals...

 

[Ananda]

Sandhi Yudha;181347]I think we need something like the SIGMA 10513 more than the Italian design. The Commandante class is nothing more than a OPV.

Both of them are modular design. Same as French Gowind. Being Modular means you can put anything you want as long as it's fit the space that's being provided by the modules.

I think at this moment what's the considerations are more on prices and the length of ToT being offered. On Technical wise, the differences on modular design seems more on the amount of flexibility of each modular design offered.

I think the defence minister already stated few months ago that any ships that we're going to produces will have to base on modullar design. We simply can't afford more specialize design.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

This is KRI Dili 583, on in internet its listed as LCU. But isn't it too big to be a LCU, isnt it a LST?