Pirates

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citizen578

New Member
The difficulty is in defining the pirates.

Without meaning to sound patronising, these are not one-legged parrot-owning people who stand proundly beneath the jolly-roger... they are fishermen who are struggling to make ends meet.

You are the commander of a naval boarding party off Somalia. You stop a suspicious boat. You talk to the occupants who say they are fishermen. You the find a few AK47s... does that mean they must be pirates?

It's not just cargo ships and luxury liners that are targets for the criminals, ordinary sailors are too. Many of them feel they have to carry weapons to protect themselves from the pirates and from armed gangs who operate in a seabourne 'mafia' type role; saying ''if you want ot fish here, you have to pay us money, or we'll kill you''.

What a dilemma for everyone. The only way a Navy can truly justify the use of force is if they actually witness an unarmed vessel coming under attack.

Less than a week ago, I was discussing this matter with Capt Farrington RN, who heads the EU's ani-piracy task-force. He described some of these dilemmas, and the masssive problems of integrating navies which haven't always seen eye-to-eye, and under common RoE's and operating techniques.

This is no simple issue.
 

ROCK45

New Member
Hi citizen578
Without meaning to sound patronising, these are not one-legged parrot-owning people who stand proundly beneath the jolly-roger...
post 159
I admit it would be easier if they flew the skull and cross bone flags.
ARRG
I did mention something to that affect in post 159 and understand it not always clear cut. What I mean if pirates are driven off or a boat with armed men are following a ship, (fisherman wouldn't do that right) wouldn't this be a safe target? Take this boat out and rid the waters of a few pirates this is what I mean about working with our hands tied behind our backs. Failed attempts are perfect weapons free missions. Assets can directly attack pirates without any hostages involved. Letting them hold up their hands and boat on back to shore is useless these people kill and rob other sea going travelers there bad people to begin with. They would have no problem shooting there way back on a ship tomorrow.

My comments on the banks involved couldn't the UN or the World Bank deal with this? If you take away the places where they make their transactions wouldn't that hurt them too? I think the banks involved should be punished and fined for dealing with pirates. Could the banking end of this be addressed? Anybody is this possible?
 

citizen578

New Member
You can see how this is a nightmare for naval barristers.

It's an issue of deniability, when every fisherman carries an AK, it's almost impossible to prove they are engaged in piracy until they make an unambiguous attack on a ship. A boat of armed men following a ship still have deniability. We can't go in guns-blazing, because (as the Indian Navy proved this week) the risk of killing civilians is severe.

It's a classic example of going for a 'solf-kill' and psyops, over and above lethal force. By providing aid shipments to the communities which survive off piracy (because they have no alternative), we will reduce the incidence. Equally, an air-strike on Eyl or some other port would only bring massive civilian casualties for no gain.

These are not classic military targets, and should not be treated as such. The solution rests in providing a strong deterrant, coupled with providing an alternative for the desperate and desolate people involved in this.
 

regstrup

Member
If Absalon is still down that wat, it would be a waste of her abilities if she wasn't carrying some sort of boarding force.
The Absalon has a boardingteam supported by Navy SOF from Frømandskorpset.

Here is a small video were you see a friendly approach and boarding LINK
(Sorry, it is danish)
 

Salty Dog

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Hi citizen578
My comments on the banks involved couldn't the UN or the World Bank deal with this? If you take away the places where they make their transactions wouldn't that hurt them too? I think the banks involved should be punished and fined for dealing with pirates. Could the banking end of this be addressed? Anybody is this possible?
Money laundering is big business and involves more than just banks. It's not going to go away.
 

Wooki

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
The difficulty is in defining the pirates.

Without meaning to sound patronising, these are not one-legged parrot-owning people who stand proundly beneath the jolly-roger... they are fishermen who are struggling to make ends meet.

You are the commander of a naval boarding party off Somalia. You stop a suspicious boat. You talk to the occupants who say they are fishermen. You the find a few AK47s... does that mean they must be pirates?

It's not just cargo ships and luxury liners that are targets for the criminals, ordinary sailors are too. Many of them feel they have to carry weapons to protect themselves from the pirates and from armed gangs who operate in a seabourne 'mafia' type role; saying ''if you want ot fish here, you have to pay us money, or we'll kill you''.

What a dilemma for everyone. The only way a Navy can truly justify the use of force is if they actually witness an unarmed vessel coming under attack.

Less than a week ago, I was discussing this matter with Capt Farrington RN, who heads the EU's ani-piracy task-force. He described some of these dilemmas, and the masssive problems of integrating navies which haven't always seen eye-to-eye, and under common RoE's and operating techniques.

This is no simple issue.
Ahh, there in lies the problem. Capt Farrington RN is a gray funnel boy. If you want to spot a pirate ask a merchantman.

It is VERY simple and they do easily expose themselves.

With regard to the 'Q' ship approach, that is also easy. No cargo comes out of Jeddah, it only goes in, therefore you have pirate agents in Port Said and the Suez.

On the other side you have agents in the Gulf ports

Have one box boat load a 40 ton container of blank credit cards in Rotterdam and then sail to Abu Dhabi and see what shows up. Believe you me, if they are "professionals" they will risk taking on a 27knot container ship.

If you get nothing, then you are talking opportunists and scale down to a parcel tanker which do legitimately "run back and forth".

Either way the point is that pirates are easy to identify and there is no issue for "Naval Barristers", you just have to ask the right people.

cheers

w
 

John Sansom

New Member
Hi, gf0012-aust, how's the lurkin' goin' No matter...I just hope your daughter wasn't one of the three-member "Brit" security team involved in the most recent chemo-tanker heist. Word is, these folk took a voluntary plank walk when the ship's hoses failed to deter a pirate boarding party and had to be picked up later.

The question is: Was that it? Three lads and a fire hose against 50's, ak47's, RPG's and the like?

Is there a message being missed somewhere?
 

John Sansom

New Member
Uh oh. Seven hours ago I heard that there were three Brit security folk on that hijacked chem-tanker and that they had chosen to abandon ship when the pirates took over. More recently, the news came that it was only two Brits and that they are still on board.

Problem is, I'm getting this information from allegedly reputable national and international media organizations who seem to have a distinct aversion to attribution.

Many years ago, when I was in the news business, I often found ways to call the bridges of vessels facing a variety of perils and pf those on rescue stand-by. Has anybody made that particular effort yet?
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Well, the Bundeswehr has a news item on its site saying the following:

- NATO ships received a SOS call from MV Biscaglia
- multiple helicopters from several ships are dispatched to the incident, including a Lynx from MFG3 aboard FGS Mecklenburg-Vorpommern
- through communication and observation it's established that pirates have taken over the ship
- enroute to the ship, three persons in the water, "presumed crew of the ship at the time", are spotted
- the German helo breaks out off the intercept, drops and fishes the persons out of the sea
- all three were evacuated to FS Var

Note: the three definitely did not just jump the plank without preparation; without emergency lights or similar, the helos wouldn't have spotted them at 4 am.
 
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citizen578

New Member
Ahh, there in lies the problem. Capt Farrington RN is a gray funnel boy. If you want to spot a pirate ask a merchantman.

It is VERY simple and they do easily expose themselves.

With regard to the 'Q' ship approach, that is also easy. No cargo comes out of Jeddah, it only goes in, therefore you have pirate agents in Port Said and the Suez.

On the other side you have agents in the Gulf ports

Have one box boat load a 40 ton container of blank credit cards in Rotterdam and then sail to Abu Dhabi and see what shows up. Believe you me, if they are "professionals" they will risk taking on a 27knot container ship.

If you get nothing, then you are talking opportunists and scale down to a parcel tanker which do legitimately "run back and forth".

Either way the point is that pirates are easy to identify and there is no issue for "Naval Barristers", you just have to ask the right people.

cheers

w

Errrrr, what?

Capt Farrington is in command of the EU's anti-piracy task force, i'd say that he knows a fair amount about the background and strategy of dealing with the issue. What on earth makes you think Merchantmen are the ones with the answers for the piracy problem?!

The entire problem is that pirates are incredibly hard to unambiguously identify.

Do you understand what naval barristers actually do? This is not the 18th century, no navy does anything before taking the time to analyse the legal ramifications. For reasons I suggested a few days ago, it is a complex legal scenario which demands a rolling involvement of legal experts. Somehow I would think that Naval Barristers are precisely ''the right people''.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Hi, gf0012-aust, how's the lurkin' goin' No matter...I just hope your daughter wasn't one of the three-member "Brit" security team involved in the most recent chemo-tanker heist.
No, I asked her to reconsider her occupation of choice last year - she's now working in an armoury.

Thanks for the "ask" :)
 

John Sansom

New Member
Thanks, Kato. The picture becomes somewhat less clouded. Oh, yeah. Tbe "plank" reference was just a little "literary device" to cover the disembarkation of what I and others were lead to believe was a very small security contingent.

Glad to hear, gf0012-aus, that your daughter has opted for armoury work 'stead of shipboard security. Parents always need a little heart's ease with which to leaven parental pride. All the best.
 

Wooki

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Errrrr, what?

Capt Farrington is in command of the EU's anti-piracy task force, i'd say that he knows a fair amount about the background and strategy of dealing with the issue. What on earth makes you think Merchantmen are the ones with the answers for the piracy problem?!

The entire problem is that pirates are incredibly hard to unambiguously identify.

Do you understand what naval barristers actually do? This is not the 18th century, no navy does anything before taking the time to analyse the legal ramifications. For reasons I suggested a few days ago, it is a complex legal scenario which demands a rolling involvement of legal experts. Somehow I would think that Naval Barristers are precisely ''the right people''.
I think it is obvious that I patently disagree with you. Without insulting the good Capt. He and his task force are (through no fault of their own) neophytes in this arena and they have a lot of catching up to do. This "Piracy problem" as you call it has been around for at least 50 years, so you are dumber then dumb if you don't ask the old hands who have been fighting them off all this time.

Case in point, the USS Cole. It was simply unbelievable that the Captain let that boat get so close to his vessel to prosecute an attack. The only credible reason as to why he did so was that he was unaware of the local environment and the threat it posed.

I am intimately aware of what barristers do friend. I do not see how they are relevant and it seems to me that the only way for you to fully appreciate my perspective is to place you on an unarmed boat and have you sail between Socotra and the Horn while fending off armed pirates at odds of 30 to 1. Lets see how you do.

Nothing like a good knife fight to get the creative juices flowing, especially when you don't have a knife.

A pirate is a pirate and they are damned easy to spot. The pirates off the Horn are (IMHO) primarily opportunists. The difference today is that you have a new element creating organized "gangs" and they have access to money and motors to get them across the Yemen gap. No fishermen in that region need the type of motor boats favored by pirates. It is predominately fish traps and dows.

So it is a learning environment for all. You have the newbie pirates coming in on the scene with their new equipment and the newbie UN guys trying to enforce the law of the sea.

That is why it is easy to spot who the players are. All of them act differently to the old fisherman who sits on the dock at the end of the day repairing his nets...

I hope people are getting this? The most important underlying point here is that the normal everday "traffic" of fishing dows and whatnot have been plying the waters around the horn, the gulf, down to Mumbai and back up into the Red Sea for thousands and thousands of years and in their own right are fantastic seamen and navigators. If one respects that and embraces it, a new guy with a hotted up water taxi (e.g. "Bangkok Taxi" is the term used in SE Asia) stands out like dogs balls. If the good Capt is still having problems figuring out who is what and what is who then get him to contact GF and he can get him in touch with me. Or better yet, talk to the people at Maersk. There is a big reason why they are the most successful line on that trade route.


cheers


w
 

John Sansom

New Member
I would suggest. lads, that a significant amount of the fumbling which may occur on armed vessels dedicated to anti-piratical activity has its origins in politics and the suck-up nuances of international diplomacy.

My sympathies go out to those skippers who are given, at best, somewhat flexible rules of engagement with the admonition not to upset anybody whose butt is comfortably ensconced in a diplomatic seat somewhere, and whose mind is more focused on the escargot kick-off to the upcoming evening's dinner than on the Somali offshore ToE. The name "Rwanda" seems to keep coming to mind.

Oh, dear. I never realized that I enjoy such a healthy cycnical streak.
 

ROCK45

New Member
Originally Posted by ROCK45 View Post
Hi citizen578
My comments on the banks involved couldn't the UN or the World Bank deal with this? If you take away the places where they make their transactions wouldn't that hurt them too? I think the banks involved should be punished and fined for dealing with pirates. Could the banking end of this be addressed? Anybody is this possible?
Salty Dog
Money laundering is big business and involves more than just banks. It's not going to go away.
Salty Dog
You are so right about money laundering and just how big this really is I had no idea it was on this scale. This is what I found.

Somali piracy backed by international network
By MOHAMED OLAD HASSAN and ELIZABETH A. KENNEDY, Associated Press Writers Mohamed Olad Hassan And Elizabeth A. Kennedy, Associated Press Writers – Wed Dec 10, 3:35 am ET

MOGADISHU, Somalia – Ahmed Dahir Suleyman is cagey as he talks about the global network that funds and supports piracy off the coast of Somalia.

"We have negotiators, translators and agents in many areas ... let me say across the world," said Suleyman, a pirate in the harbor town of Eyl, where scores of hijacked ships are docked.

"These people help us during exchanges of ransom and finding out the exact person to negotiate with," he told The Associated Press. Before cutting off the cell phone call, Suleyman snapped: "It is not possible to ask anymore about our secrets."

The dramatic spike in piracy in African waters this year is backed by an international network mostly of Somali expatriates from the Horn of Africa to as far as North America, who offer funds, equipment and information in exchange for a cut of the ransoms, according to researchers, officials and members of the racket. With help from the network, Somali pirates have brought in at least $30 million in ransom so far this year.

"The Somali diaspora all around the world now have taken to this business enterprise," said Michael Weinstein, a Somalia expert at Purdue University in Indiana. He likened the racket to "syndicates where you buy shares, so to speak, and you get a cut of the ransom."

Weinstein said his interviews with ransom negotiators and Somalis indicate the piracy phenomenon has reached Canada, which is home to 200,000 Somalis.

John S. Burnett, a London-based author working on a book about hijackings off the Somali coast, said there is no doubt Somali pirates are part of "transnational crime syndicates." He said information from sources, including people involved in ransom negotiations and payouts, indicates the money goes as far as Canada and capitals in Europe.

"Places like Eyl are getting only a portion of the millions in ransom being siphoned off," he said. "The Somali diaspora is huge."

Sheik Qasim Ibrahim Nur, director of security at Somalia's Interior and National Security Ministry, said evidence points to Somali expatriates in Kenya and the United Arab Emirates, but declined to give further details. He said there is "no doubt" the pirates have links outside Somalia.

Kenya's government spokesman, Alfred Mutua, said the issue was under investigation. In Dubai, a police officer at the Interior Ministry denied claims that anyone was funding piracy. He asked not to be named because he is not authorized to speak to the media.

The deals with "investors" appear to be fairly informal, with family or clan networks stretching overseas. The lack of a proper banking system in Somalia, which has not had an effective government in almost 20 years, makes it difficult to trace how much funding the pirates get from overseas or how it is channeled.

Somalia is a failed state with no banks, only a cash-based, informal transfer network called hawala. A hawala operator takes in money on one end, then instructs a relative, friend or another agent in another country to hand a like amount to someone else. The paperless system, based on trust and oral agreements, is commonly used in the Middle East, parts of Asia and Africa.

There is some concern that the system is used for overseas payments to and from the pirates — especially now that they are getting their ransoms in cash, sometimes dropped in burlap sacks from a buzzing helicopter.

The pirates acknowledge using foreign help.

"All I can tell you is we have people in Nairobi, Djibouti, we have people in Dubai and many other countries," said Gamase Hassan Said, a pirate in Eyl speaking by telephone.

Aden Yusuf, another pirate in Eyl, told The AP that foreigners in Dubai, Nairobi, Djibouti and elsewhere help pirates get sophisticated equipment, such as money-counting machines seen at foreign exchange bureaus, in exchange for a cut of the ransom.

Roger Middleton, an expert on East Africa at Chatham House think tank in London, said ransoms in the past have been "channeled to expatriate Somalis around the world." But pirates appear to be opting for direct cash payouts more often now — bypassing even the hawala tranfer system — because of concerns about scrutiny by governments, he said. In one instance at the beginning of this year, he said, the pirates wanted the money delivered through the Gulf but nobody was prepared to take it.

"That may be an indication that the (UAE) government was stepping up pressure," said Middleton, whose information comes from private security firms and people party to hostage negotiations.

In the Emirates, hawala operators have been ordered to register with the Central Bank and to report transfers larger than $550, but it is unclear how many actually do so.

The Somali pirates also rely on a local network of corrupt officials and villagers eager for money in a region with no real economy. Somali pirates generally dock hijacked vessels near the coast in the northern Somali region of Puntland as they negotiate ransoms. Rogue security and government officials there allow the pirates to use ports and move freely around towns while they restock ships, said Abdullahi Said Aw-Yusuf, a district commissioner in Eyl.

"This is the main reason why pirates are stationed in Puntland," Aw-Yusuf said.

Piracy has turned many tiny fishing villages off Somalia's coast into boomtowns, where pirates build sprawling homes, cruise in luxury cars and marry multiple wives. Often dressed in military fatigues, the pirates are typically armed with automatic weapons, anti-tank rocket launchers and grenades. The weaponry is readily available throughout Somalia, where 20 years of anarchy means nearly everyone owns a gun and a bustling arms market operates in the capital.

The pirates have attacked more than 90 vessels this year and successfully seized more than 36.

Link
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081210/ap_on_re_af/af_somalia_global_piracy
 

John Sansom

New Member
Interesting AP piece. Also interesting to be informed by Ahmed Dahir Suleyman that he and his piratical chums have agents and representatives throughout the world. Do you think he'd benefit ffrom knowing that other organizations have hangmen throughout the world, too?

Not really politically correct, eh? Okay...but I don't think I'll retract it.

Thanks again for the item, Rock45.
 

youpii

New Member
Why not send an amphibious task force?

Europe sent the Atalante task force: a few frigates. Although it is a good sign, I'm wondering why not send more (many countries don't even send a ship) and why no amphibious ship.
An amphibious ship can carry land attack helicopters (with guns) that would be more deterrent than the ASM helicopters. Furthermore, amphibious ships can serve as a commando base to assault the ships captured by the pirates, or even start a land attack on the coastal bases of the pirates. Some countries even have radar helicopters that would be greatly useful to control (small) ship movements in that area.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
The Danish navy ship Absalon is in the theatre. She has the capacity for up to a company of troops, assault boats, etc - though I'm not sure what she's carrying.
 

John Sansom

New Member
I had heard that the Absalon is indeed carrying troops....although I can't for the life of me recall the source. Still, I do remember at the time that I had visions of quick fighting-patrol incursions into the pirates' so-called safe zones....and wondering how that would work. Not very helpful, I know, but.....
 

John Sansom

New Member
A little more on Absalon....
She does indeed have the capacity to carry a "temporary" complement of 130 troops with assault boats. She also has fairly significant mine laying capabilities. On top of that, she has already captured seven pirates, confiscated their ak47's, RPG's and the like, sent their "fast boat" to the bottom, and handed the prisoners over to the Yemeni coastguard.
 
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