Pirates

[John Sansom]

Thanks, Aegis, for the goodies. As for the pirates who drowned, they probably should have been saved. They may have had some intelligence value, even of the barebones kind, and there was always the possibility that one or more of them had relatives ashore with some local or even regional clout. Ditto the miscreants who took "several hours" to swim ashore.

I say all this having no idea what the limiting factors the "good guys" may have been experiencing; you know, the kind of stuff that worked against a rescue op.

 

[Feanor]

Just a quick update; the large ASW ship Admiral Vinogradov has replaced the Neustrashimiy on anti-piracy duty in the Aden Gulf. The Neustrashimiy is returning to the Baltic Fleet. And the Petr Velikiy is on it's way north from South Africa to the region.

 

[youpii]

Nuclear cruiser is kinda oversized for anti-piracy operation.
I guess the USA will have to send an aircraft carrier group to keep the balance

 

[gf0012-aust]

Nuclear cruiser is kinda oversized for anti-piracy operation.
I guess the USA will have to send an aircraft carrier group to keep the balance

well, in actual fact an aircraft carrier is the better choice - why?

well, at the moment the combined anti-piracy fleets comprise over 60 vessels, and the various task force commanders have indicated that they cannot cover the spectrum and entire area of likely operations - in fact the 60 vessels can cover only 20% of the potential likely pirate effected region.

I can tell you that various navies have persistently stated that a medium aircraft carrier is a better choice - because it provides sea basing capability, and because it then means that the area of ops will be covered faster and more efficiently by organic air.

every major interception to date has resulted in organic air from a destroyer or frigate being advanced ahead to interdict and intercept. A carrier would/could provide far more coherent autonomous CAP/GTMI capabilities - and as such could vector assets much faster than any surface vessel.

the best assets in fact in the region are subs (ISR and port monitoring), multi-rotor supporting skimmers (eg larger cruisers or big destroyers because they have air redundancy) and fixed wing ASW assets like the Orions (because they have a huge IR sensing footprint) IR on water? The Orions excel at this and have since 1991.

Apart from these, what are the next best assets? well, at fleet level it would be aerostats - they'd then have "permanent" OTHR capability and at a very efficient cost base.

So, in short, in real terms, depending on what and how many rotors are attached to the russian cruiser, depending on its area of op, depending on the local commanders ROE's - its a far more useful asset than a single rotor equiped frigate or destroyer.

A carrier would be better - or a converted container ship, or an asset like HMAS Manoora and/or HMAS Kanimbla.

One of the experiences out of the Gulf was that the Manoora and Kanimbla were considered by far to be the most effective task force commanding ships on gulf watch - they had multiple rotors, could deploy specforces at will, had refreshed VBSS experienced teams available, and had the command centre to co-ordinate all other navies assets in theatre.

Cruisers provide that to a lesser degree, carriers (medium esp) provide it better. larger carriers are for major and probably theatre area violent prosecution, so would be overkill. BUT beggars not being choosers would rather have a large carrier for overwatch than no carrier at all.

This is not a pecker competition for who's ship is bigger - its what assets are relevant and available that counts.

 

[StingrayOZ]

Maybe something like a LHD/LHA would be perfect for this sort of operation. Perhaps HMS Ocean or a Marines amphibious ship. Or the italian Cavour. Wasn't this the origional dream of a sea control ship? Protecting sealanes.

 

[Feanor]

It would truly be impressive if the Kuznetsov could be deployed there. Though somehow it doesn't look like it's in the book. Oh and iirc the Vinogradov has two helos, vs. one on the Neustrashimiy. That might have been part of the rationale for deploying a ASW ship on anti-piracy.

 

[youpii]

Maybe something like a LHD/LHA would be perfect for this sort of operation. Perhaps HMS Ocean or a Marines amphibious ship. Or the italian Cavour. Wasn't this the origional dream of a sea control ship? Protecting sealanes.

French LHD swould do a good job in that area if they carry the Horizon radar helos.

 

[youpii]

It would truly be impressive if the Kuznetsov could be deployed there. Though somehow it doesn't look like it's in the book. Oh and iirc the Vinogradov has two helos, vs. one on the Neustrashimiy. That might have been part of the rationale for deploying a ASW ship on anti-piracy.

Some Japanese ASW destroyers carry 3 helos.
Japan announced the possibility of sending ships when China sent a task force.

 

[kato]

Regarding helos, anyone know if the Jeanne is sortieing with its usual 2+2 helo config for GEAOM again, as they are in the region right now?

 

[John Sansom]

There is a certain bizarre aspect to all this. We now have a whole lot of "projected" power swanning around in the area....with promises of more to come. One is tempted to wonder what the "pirates" think of it. I rather suspect that they are not--I say again, not--cringing.

As to the introduction of "heavy hitters" into the fray--the Russians were particularly cited--it's a good training exercise, one very much based on reality, giving a whole lot of matelots something productive to do.

Go git 'em, guys!:nutkick

 

[AegisFC]

French LHD swould do a good job in that area if they carry the Horizon radar helos.

AEW Helo's won't help much, the pirates for the most part use fishing boats and are indistinguishable from the large number of legitimate fishermen.

 

[youpii]

AEW Helo's won't help much, the pirates for the most part use fishing boats and are indistinguishable from the large number of legitimate fishermen.

Maybe they would help to identify the motherboats by seeing where the speedboats came from.

 

[Feanor]

The Russian ASW ship Admiral Vinogradov just fought off a pirate attack on a Netherlands freighter.

http://newsru.com/world/14jan2009/admiralv.html

It sent out a Ka-27 helicopter which opened fire on the pirates, injuring three. Afterwards two pirate ships were boarded by inspection parties from the Admiral Vinogradov, and the three pirates were treated for injuries. The pirate boats were then handed over to Yemen coastguards.

Just out of curiosity, is it typical for injured pirates to then be treated for injuries by the various ships in the area? I mean seriously.

 

[John Sansom]

Whether care for wounded and captured pirates in this particular theatre is typical or not, I couldn't say.

However, it should be. Once a wounded miscreant is in the hands of his/her lawful pursuers, they have at the very least a moral obligation to provide effective first aid before handing him/her over to another authority. Whether or not this is written down anywhere may be questionable. After all, pirates shouldn't necessarily qualify as combatants under tthe Geneva Convention.

Anyway, let's hope it is typical. Hearts and minds, and all that......

 

[Firn]

However, it should be. Once a wounded miscreant is in the hands of his/her lawful pursuers, they have at the very least a moral obligation to provide effective first aid before handing him/her over to another authority. Whether or not this is written down anywhere may be questionable. After all, pirates shouldn't necessarily qualify as combatants under tthe Geneva Convention.

Anyway, let's hope it is typical. Hearts and minds, and all that...

Well said. One should also take into account that so far the pirates usually tried to not spill blood. If they themselves can be captured without much of a fight, the hostages and future targets are less exposed to violence.

 

[dragonfire]

Three Indians taken Hostage by Somalian Pirates; Navy vows action

News Update

Three Indians taken hostage by Somalian pirates; Navy vows action
16 Jan 2009, 1300 hrs IST, TIMESOFINDIA.COM

VISAKHAPATNAM: Confirming that three Indian sailors onboard ship M V Manyara were taken hostage by Somalian pirates, Navy Chief Admiral Sureesh
Mehta on Friday assured action to rescue them. ( Watch )

“We will anything to rescue the Indian sailors taken hostage by Somali pirates off Kenyan coast,” Mehta said.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ates_Navy_vows_action/articleshow/3988033.cms


Well some more action off the somalian coast, tht and the presence of IN elements plus UN allowing chasing priates in the territorial waters and land of Somalia - this would be a good opp for the MARCOS and other naval elements as well. Hope the hostages come out safe

 

[somalia]

i am somalian

My dad use to tell me "When you sit on the beach and look at the ocean you are completely stunned by the beauty, but if you take binoclulars and look you see many ships moving cargo threw somali waters" when i was told that i was completely disguested by the sear thought of people using somalian waters to transport weapons and oil to fund wars in diffrent countrys, for example when the somali pirate took over that urkrainian ship filled with russian tanks, rpg-7's and alot of light arms i was pretty stunned that a couple guys in speed boats could do this task, but when i later found out that this cargo was heading to kenya i was simply appauled....kenya? surely they would use all that equipment for good tasks, after all most african countries do.

 

[alexsa]

My dad use to tell me "When you sit on the beach and look at the ocean you are completely stunned by the beauty, but if you take binoclulars and look you see many ships moving cargo threw somali waters" when i was told that i was completely disguested by the sear thought of people using somalian waters to transport weapons and oil to fund wars in diffrent countrys, for example when the somali pirate took over that urkrainian ship filled with russian tanks, rpg-7's and alot of light arms i was pretty stunned that a couple guys in speed boats could do this task, but when i later found out that this cargo was heading to kenya i was simply appauled....kenya? surely they would use all that equipment for good tasks, after all most african countries do.

Sorry I take umbarge at your suggestion and am of the view the entire argument is inflamatory. The fact is Somalia is astride a major shipping route and almost all vessels passing thought those watere are on 'innocent passage' an involved in lawful trade of comodities..... not weapons or goods for the support of conflict.

To try and justify violent prirate action the basis they were forturate (unless it was pre-ordained) enought to pick one vessel carrying arms is a sorrowful excuse for action that only has one purpose .... extortion.

I doubt relying on such income is going to help Somalia. I find your justification for firing on, and seizing, unarmed merchant vessels very troubling.

 

[alexsa]

Having review the previous post can I just clarify by "pre-ordained" I meant they were aware of the ship and its cargo (information that is really not that hard to come by) rather than any conspirisy to put the ship in that position.

Sorry thought I had better clarify that.

 

[black shark]

My dad use to tell me "When you sit on the beach and look at the ocean you are completely stunned by the beauty, but if you take binoclulars and look you see many ships moving cargo threw somali waters" when i was told that i was completely disguested by the sear thought of people using somalian waters to transport weapons and oil to fund wars in diffrent countrys, for example when the somali pirate took over that urkrainian ship filled with russian tanks, rpg-7's and alot of light arms i was pretty stunned that a couple guys in speed boats could do this task, but when i later found out that this cargo was heading to kenya i was simply appauled....kenya? surely they would use all that equipment for good tasks, after all most african countries do.

somalia,
Good to have you in the discussion. I'm not sure how to read your message though. You seem to show some support for piracy off the Somali coast. I'm not judging you but am interested in your views here if you could elaborate.

Anyway, concentrating on the threat of the pirates and how to deal with them: It's proven quite difficult for the various navies to deal with these pirates despite the technology advantage. In open water and disguised as fisherman, it makes the task difficult.
The best way to deal with this is by controlling what vessels are in the water in the first place and tracking them once out at sea.
The situation in Somalia probably prevents this from being feasable but theoretically this is how I think it could be done:
1. All vessels in the area be required by law to have a GPS beacon fitted to allow them to be tracked at all times. Security access codes etc...to counter theft.
2. Continual overlapping maritime airborne surveillance of the area to police the program.
3. Put in place various rules for all vessels, for example, no vessel may pass within 1km of another without prior authorisation. Any vessel which does is confiscated.
4. Quick response naval units available to respond if a vessel is reported with no GPS beacon or has broken the anti piracy law.

If this isn't feasable due to the reported lack of law/infrastructure then another solution is to have a team of marines on every ship.