Russia-Georgia Conflict: News From the War zone

[Topmaul]

What kind of US or Israeli equipment did they get?

Apart from some Humvees and some Israeli TIs I can't remember any more stuff.

The raids were disclosed by UPI chief editor Arnaud de Borchgrave, who is also on the Washington Times staff, and picked up by the Iranian Fars news agency. The Russian raids of two Georgian airfields, which Tbilisi had allowed Israel to use for a potential strike against Iran’s nuclear facilities, followed the Georgian offensive against South Ossetia on Aug. 7.

Under the secret agreement with Georgia, the airfields had been earmarked for use by Israeli fighter-bombers taking off to strike Iran in return for training and arms supplies.

DEBKAfile’s intelligence sources report that flying from S. Georgia over the Caspian Sea to Iran would sharply trim the distance to be spanned by Israeli fighter-bombers, reducing flying time to 3.5 hours.

Northern Iran and the Tehran region, where most of the nuclear facilities are concentrated, would be within range, with no need to request US permission to pass through Iraq air space.

Russian Special Forces also raided other Israeli facilities in southern Georgia and captured Israeli spy drones, says the report.

Israel was said to have used the two airfields to “conduct recon flights over southern Russia as well as into nearby Iran.” The US intelligence sources quoted by UPI reported that the Russian force also carried home other Israeli military equipment captured at the air bases.

Our sources say that if the Russians got hold of an Israeli unmanned aerial vehicle complete with sophisticated electronic reconnaissance equipment, they will have secured some of the IDF’s most secret devices for spying on Iran and Syria.

When this happened before, Russian military engineers quickly dismantled the equipment, studied it and passed the technology on to Tehran and Damascus.

You guys need to wake up and smell the coffee.

 

[Chrom]

Yeah right and you are talking about eeeeevil western propaganda.


Anyway, do we know what most of the US advisors where doing?
Looking at the awfull performance of the Georgian forces I suspect they mostly trained Georgian units for their Iraq deployments while implementing good old conventional combined arms warfare was not very high on the to do list.

By all accounts they trained them as normal, albeit a bit light infantry. Mainly against smaller opponents - insurgents, separatists, etc. They didnt trained (and not equipped) them to fight against full big army like russian army... but that would be useless anyway i think. Quantity have a quality on its own. There was little sense to develop Georgian aviation for example. They artillery was fairly good for they size as is. They tank forces was adequate. They had enough fairly modern MANPADS and ATGM's.

Main problem was high command. It was not prepared to fight against Russians.

 

[Chrom]

Russian Special Forces also raided other Israeli facilities in southern Georgia and captured Israeli spy drones, says the report.

Israel was said to have used the two airfields to “conduct recon flights over southern Russia as well as into nearby Iran.” The US intelligence sources quoted by UPI reported that the Russian force also carried home other Israeli military equipment captured at the air bases.

Common, "flights over southern Russia"? What a nonsense.

Our sources say that if the Russians got hold of an Israeli unmanned aerial vehicle complete with sophisticated electronic reconnaissance equipment, they will have secured some of the IDF’s most secret devices for spying on Iran and Syria.

Ha-ha. Israel sells them to anyone who will pay. There is nothing secret in these devices.

When this happened before, Russian military engineers quickly dismantled the equipment, studied it and passed the technology on to Tehran and Damascus.

You guys need to wake up and smell the coffee.

Lol. Russians of course dismantled that equipment. They can even pass that to everyone around. Just for fun.

 

[Topmaul]

Georgia pulled the trigger that started this chain of events under cover of the olympics, Russia did not start it. From their point of view they are in the right and really it's a bit hard to argue objectively that they are the aggressor. They did punish Georgia a bit but in the end will pull out maybe not form South Osettia but from most of Georgia. Without the provocation of Georgia this chain of events never would have happened.

Of course some of that is inaccurate I doubt they will pass along any information to anyone but still the GRU and KGB are going to have a haul of cool stuff.

 

[Grand Danois]

You guys need to wake up and smell the coffee.

I just think I'll have to decline make up my mind based on Debkafile.

 

[Waylander]

By all accounts they trained them as normal, albeit a bit light infantry. Mainly against smaller opponents - insurgents, separatists, etc. They didnt trained (and not equipped) them to fight against full big army like russian army... but that would be useless anyway i think. Quantity have a quality on its own. There was little sense to develop Georgian aviation for example. They artillery was fairly good for they size as is. They tank forces was adequate. They had enough fairly modern MANPADS and ATGM's.

Main problem was high command. It was not prepared to fight against Russians.

Their artillery was fairly good? The tank force was adequate?
It looks like there was not much along the lines of cooperation between their infantry, tanks and artillery.

They didn't hit alot with their artillery after their early fire missions against fixed targets.
Says something about their implemention of forward artillery observers and the ability of their infantry and tanks to call in fire on their own.

Their tanks rolled into urban areas like they wanted to do some sort of new thunder run and got their a*** handed to them.

In the first days they had the numerical advantage, good enough tanks and more than a handfull of ATGMs. They also had artillery available. They even managed to get fixed and rotary wing CAS into SO some days after they woke the bear.

And what did they achieve?
Near to nothing.
IMHO they lacked nearly everything.
It looks like they had no plan whatsoever after the Russians reacted and flowed out of the tunnel.
There where serious mistakes within their higher ranks and their lower ranks also didn't look that well trained.
And one shouldn't wonder that in a conventional conflict somebody who uses light infantry as his main combat force gets punched quickly and hard by well organized mech forces.
Because that's what the Russians did. Unleashedcfast, mechanized assaults to hit weak points and outmaneuver Georgian forces while hitting them with well coordinated artillery support.
Good to see that the Russians can still do this if they want.

All this combined with the lack of will resulted in the Georgian forces quickly desintegrating without being able to resist the Russian punch.

Don't get me wrong I don't think that Georgia could have possibly withstand the Russian armed forces. Nevertheless their performance was less then stellar.

 

[eckherl]

Interesting. Was there anything completely new and unproven used by the Georgians for a sort of proxy field test?

No - their systems have been around for quite some time now. U.S Marines will be going to a system similar to what Georgia was using.

 

[John Sansom]

The term "captured Israeli facilities has an interesting ring to it. How about captured IDF personell? Do we have anything on that.

A thousand or so posts ago, I wondered at the origins of some lads pictured in camos riding on the exterior of Russian armoured troop carriers. Most were bearded and all appeared to be helmetless. N. and S. Osssetian irregulars? Or Chechens? These guys appeared to have seen a parade ground only from a distance, if that.

On both sides, how does the shakeout of personnel appear? Who was fighting who...and was it as complicated as the makeup of Georgia itself?

And how can we get the Swiss in there to explain how things work?

 

[eckherl]

Yeah right and you are talking about eeeeevil western propaganda.


Anyway, do we know what most of the US advisors where doing?
Looking at the awfull performance of the Georgian forces I suspect they mostly trained Georgian units for their Iraq deployments while implementing good old conventional combined arms warfare was not very high on the to do list.

The U.S advisors were there teaching small scale infantry tactics to get them up to par for missions in Iraq, thats about it. German advisors were there training them for small scale mountain warfare.

Russians did take more of a bloody nose than what was initially reported, but still it was a losing fight from the outset.

 

[Waylander]

Ah, yeah.
I nearly forgot that some of our Gebirgsjäger also crawled through the mountains of Georgia.

Often enough people make it look like the Georgians where some sort of fully NATO trained armed forces while in reality they are far away from being that.

 

[Firehorse]

Ukraine fears becoming Russia's next target
http://wiredispatch.com/news/?id=324189

Crimea, like Georgia, is a tinderbox of political and ethnic problems. Nearly 1.2 million of its 2 million residents are ethnic Russians, many of whom believe Crimea should be Russian.
Russia has a lease that gives it control of the Sevastopol military base until 2017 and has hinted that it does not want to leave when the lease runs out.
Konstantin Zatulin, a member of the Russian parliament from the Kremlin's dominant United Russia Party, has warned that if Kiev is not friendly toward Moscow, it will pay a price.
"This will heat up the situation," Zatulin told the Russian newspaper Izvestia. "In Ukraine, in the Crimea and in Russia there will be political forces who will be developing the thesis of the need to reconsider borders and the fate of Crimea and Sevastopol."

If they are going to interfere with the BSF operations connected to Georgia, I can bet the Russians will take their gift back, along with the rest of Russified part of Ukraine!

 

[Chrom]

Their artillery was fairly good? The tank force was adequate?
It looks like there was not much along the lines of cooperation between their infantry, tanks and artillery.

They didn't hit alot with their artillery after their early fire missions against fixed targets.
Says something about their implemention of forward artillery observers and the ability of their infantry and tanks to call in fire on their own.

Remember, russians had air superiority and counter-artillery fire by the end of 2nd day. Russian artillery was just superior. If you expect PZ2000- like equipment in Georgia - then you clearly want too much.

By all accounts there were quite lot of artillery ambushes lead by georgian forward observers. Just as i said - russians are not Hezbollah, they have some assests to counter enemy artillery.

Their tanks rolled into urban areas like they wanted to do some sort of new thunder run and got their a*** handed to them.

Again, wrong. They tanks were adequately supported with infantry. If you expect zero tank losses during assault - you again want much too much. Remember, time was VERY important for georgians - contrary to f.e. US in Iraq. When the infantry was suppressed - tanks were lost. Georgians made everything alright during in first day. Few tanks losses are nothing to note - better to lose few tanks than few infantry regiments.

In the first days they had the numerical advantage, good enough tanks and more than a handfull of ATGMs. They also had artillery available. They even managed to get fixed and rotary wing CAS into SO some days after they woke the bear.

And what did they achieve?
Near to nothing.
IMHO they lacked nearly everything.

Yes, but it is georgians who attacked. So what you want them to achieve in 24 hours? In my book they done pretty good job at defeating S.Ossetians defenders and russian peace keepers. In 24 hours they almost conquered Ts'hinvalli. Tell me truth, could any other NATO army do its job better in initial 24 hours?

It looks like they had no plan whatsoever after the Russians reacted and flowed out of the tunnel.

Yup. As i said - high command was inadequate. They didnt counted the rapidness of Russian response.

There where serious mistakes within their higher ranks and their lower ranks also didn't look that well trained.

Lower ranks... may be not stellar, but as i said up to battalion level they was more or less trained. At least to average level. I dont see too much mistakes there - barring aside run off the Gori in panic when everything got brocken.

And one shouldn't wonder that in a conventional conflict somebody who uses light infantry as his main combat force gets punched quickly and hard by well organized mech forces.

Georgians were not exactly "light infatry". 230 tanks alone. Yes, they somewhat lacked IFV's - but russian ones were also not exactly new even by 80x standards.

Because that's what the Russians did. Unleashedcfast, mechanized assaults to hit weak points and outmaneuver Georgian forces while hitting them with well coordinated artillery support.

Remember, russians enjoyed air superiority. This is big thing in "outmaneuvering". Besides - look at the terrain. You will realize russians cant outmaneuver anything - there is literally 1 road there. Georgians just panicked when they realized what even old air force and tactical missiles of proper army can do.

Good to see that the Russians can still do this if they want.

All this combined with the lack of will resulted in the Georgian forces quickly desintegrating without being able to resist the Russian punch.

Don't get me wrong I don't think that Georgia could have possibly withstand the Russian armed forces. Nevertheless their performance was less then stellar.

Against Russians? Sure. But as i said, they werent prepared to really fight Russians. Not technically, not morally.

 

[swerve]

If they are going to interfere with the BSF operations connected to Georgia, I can bet the Russians will take their gift back

To be consistent, they should support the Tatars in establishing an "independent" Crimea. :

 

[Waylander]

Remember, russians had air superiority and counter-artillery fire by the end of 2nd day. Russian artillery was just superior. If you expect PZ2000- like equipment in Georgia - then you clearly want too much.

By all accounts there were quite lot of artillery ambushes lead by georgian forward observers. Just as i said - russians are not Hezbollah, they have some assests to counter enemy artillery.

I understand that with time gone by it got more and more difficult for Georgians to get their artillery into position.
Nevertheless they lacked when it came to getting the fire where they wanted to have it even when their artillery was ready to go.

And when did I said something about equipment like the PzH2000?

Again, wrong. They tanks were adequately supported with infantry. If you expect zero tank losses during assault - you again want much too much. Remember, time was VERY important for georgians - contrary to f.e. US in Iraq. When the infantry was suppressed - tanks were lost. Georgians made everything alright during in first day. Few tanks losses are nothing to note - better to lose few tanks than few infantry regiments.

No they were not. They tried fast armoured assaults in urban terrain and ran head on into the wall.
I do not state that they did this all the time but it happened and was one of their mistakes.
Brings me to...

Georgians were not exactly "light infatry". 230 tanks alone. Yes, they somewhat lacked IFV's - but russian ones were also not exactly new even by 80x standards.

The tanks often enough operated seperately from the infantry. As I said the same goes for the arty.
They were light infantry in their minds and concept with additional heavy elements which were not as integrated as it should be.
This made them slow to react and hindered combined arms warfare.
I also haven't talked about quality of equipment. Makes no real difference if Russia uses T-72B or T-90.

Remember, russians enjoyed air superiority. This is big thing in "outmaneuvering". Besides - look at the terrain. You will realize russians cant outmaneuver anything - there is literally 1 road there. Georgians just panicked when they realized what even old air force and tactical missiles of proper army can do.

Often enough Su-25 didn't operated that close to own troops because of fear of friendly fire.
And the nearly complete encirclement of the Georgian troops in Tsinkvali is what I would call superior position achieved by fast maneuvering.
And surely Russia got air support and this defenitely helped in demoralizing the Georgians.
But this is not the reason for them breaking up. It was their inability to react to the Russian actions which is at least partly a result from mistakes and shortcomings in many aspect of the Georgian armed forces.

I get the feeling that you don't want that one says that the Georgians had several shortcomings while this would make the Russian victory look less impressive.
This is not my intention. The Russians performed well enough but one should not make the Georgians bigger than they were.

With a proper plan A and B, a shifting away from the light infantry approach + support which is what they trained for in the last years and most importand the will to fight they could have made this nut much harder to crack for the Russians.

 

[Firehorse]

To be consistent, they should support the Tatars in establishing an "independent" Crimea. :

I agree! But there are more Russians and other non-Ukrainian speakers who want to rejion Russia.
related tread-
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=140546

 

[ROCK45]

Threat

Chrom
Su-24/Su-25 were never meant in anti-ship role. For controlling Black Sea Russians have Tu-22M3 aviation, Black Sea fleet and (HAMMER!!) coastal AShM's batteries which can cover entire Black Sea and which are obviously invulnerable to anything NATO could get to Black Sea.

I never meant using Su-24/25 in a anti-ship role I meant if the US warships and NATO ships were there during the fighting they could have provided SAM coverage to the ground fighting operations. NATO ships using the Standard missiles in theory could keep the Su-24 and Su-25 away or at least make them less effective. AshM's are not invulnerable to anything NATO could get to the Black Sea they could become targets like anything else if need be.

 

[eckherl]

Ah, yeah.
I nearly forgot that some of our Gebirgsjäger also crawled through the mountains of Georgia.

Often enough people make it look like the Georgians where some sort of fully NATO trained armed forces while in reality they are far away from being that.

Yep, some of the U.S military advisors were shocked that they would even attempt such a mission, they knew what the outcome was going to be before it even started. It will take years if they even get the chance to, to build back some of the losses that they incurred, thats if anyone is even willing to assist in this. I am also betting that they do not even get the chance to becoming a full NATO member.

 

[nevidimka]

Looks like US is pressuring Turkey to have diplomatic ties with Armenia. Turkey's President is in Armenia over a visit to make some bilateral ties after so long not having any diplomatic relations between the 2 countries.

By having diplomatic ties, a new pipeline can be made to flow into Turkey via Armenia.

 

[ROCK45]

Pipeline

nevidimka interesting find.

What effect on Georgia's government and future would it have if the pipeline avoided Georgia all together and is it even possible?

 

[Waylander]

And they together visited the football world cup qualification game between their two teams.

Football unites!