Russia-Georgia Conflict: News From the War zone

[KLMN]

You might find this useful, for a bit of reality - http://www.circassianworld.com/Hewitt_G.html

Note the ethnic makeup of Adjaria in 1989 - 82.8% Georgian. Since then, the Russians have almost all left, as have some of the other minorities. According to the latest Georgian census, Adjaria is 93% Georgian. There is a religious minority (numbers possibly understated by the last Georgian census), of Muslim Georgians, but somehow, I don't see them cosying up to either Russia or Turkey (which in any case, doesn't want them), so who is going to "ethnically cleanse" who?

Adjarias brief flirtation with secessionism had more to do with a local (Georgian - called Aslan Abashidze) warlord trying to set up a personal criminal fief than any separatist sentiment among the populace. There were mass demonstrations against him before Saakashvili moved against him, & his troops abandoned him. Not even Putin would lift a finger to help him: he asked for & was refused Russian help. Adjaria is over. It's firmly within Georgia, & going to stay that way. Accept it, & move on.

You should make some research about Georgia before posting something like this. In fact there is no such thing as Georgian. Notice, there is "Georgians" not Georgians in your link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgians#Ethnographic_subdivisions
More then enough place for any kind of "ethnic cleansing" if you ask me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajara#Population

According to the 2002 census, the population of Adjara is 376,016. The Adjarians (Ajars) are an ethnographic group of the Georgian people who speak a group of local dialects known collectively as Adjaran. The written language is Georgian.

The Georgian population of Adjara had been generally known as "Muslim Georgians" until the 1926 Soviet census which listed them as "Ajars" and counted 71,000 of them. Later, they were simply classified under a broader category of Georgians as no official Soviet census asked about religion.

Ethnic minorities include Laz, Russians, Armenians, Greeks, Abkhaz, etc.

Yes, Caucasus is complicated.

 

[Firehorse]

Thanks, and I would add that, after being there in the 1980s, I can assure you that all of Georgia has many ethnic groups not related to each other, and many native people in Batumi are different from other areas of Georgia. That link gives ~20 year old data, but even then you can see that Georgia policy was to declare small non-slavic, "dialect" speaking groups as "Georgians". In the PRC, we see a simular thing- different regional mutually unundestandable languages are called "dialects", since the written language uses the same characters.

Georgia linked to Nato early warning system
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4678456.ece

US warship to Georgian port partly held by Russia
http://news.yahoo.com/story/ap/georgia_russia

Georgian Leader Held on Coup Charge
http://wiredispatch.com/news/?id=329204

Cheney visit: U.S. treads tightrope on Georgia aid

At the same time, the absence at least for now of any assistance to Georgia's American-trained and –equipped military suggests a desire not to further provoke a Russia that considers the young republics on its borders part of its "near abroad." Despite terse accusations and mocking exchanges between the US and Russia in recent days, the Bush administration wants to avoid fully alienating a Russia that has an important role in other international issues.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0905/p04s03-uspo.html

It seems the US doesn't take any chances with Saakashvili- lest he tries something stupid again!

 

[John Sansom]

Having carefully read the majority of the posts currently on this board and the references they recommend, I must conclude that socio-political Georgia is an extraordinarily complicated piece of real estate. However, in all of this, I cannot help but remember the picture of Mr. Saakashvili standing in his capital and being darned near idolized by thousands of cheering "Georgians". Regardless of how one may regard the president, there certainly seems to be a strong sense of cohesion and a singlemindedness of purpose in the "Georgian" capital. Never having visited this country, I really cannot speak of the sentiments "which run in the blood" as it were. However, there are posters on this board who seem to have a working grasp of what is what and where it's at. Given that, can anybody concisely provide an opinion on what is best for Georgia and how that goal might be achieved?
Sorry about that, fellows.

 

[Firehorse]

IMHO, they should emulate Switzerland instead of Israel, if not split up comletely. At least the Swiss new how to fight well, not only to remain free but also providing mercenaries to other mideval kingdoms. I know only 3 words in Georgian:
hachapuri -pita bread
genotsvale- dear, darling
kinto- loosely translated as street smart, business savvy, shrewd

Mr. Saakashvili is trying to be "kinto" with the West to use NATO/US against Russia. This is his own undoing- he went to far and miscalculated big time!

 

[Topmaul]

Moderators,
I know you don't want to discuss politics and energy in this thread, however both are critical to villify the Russian action. With those two issues off the table we are left with the military situation on the ground Georgia started a full scale military adventure into an area that does not want them.

Then the Russian military went in to save their own people at the same time crushed the army trained you the US and Israel and also captured tons of NATO, US, and Isreali equipement and carted it off to Moscow (thanks Georgia). Remember when the US begines a Military Adventure there is time for planning rehersal and pre-deployment, since this was a reaction and not a pre-planned invasion not every thing went well for them, you can bet they are a lessons learned and will be better next time.

Looks like the US got:nutkick by Putin he is going to come out of this smelling like a rose once the dust settles. Europe better get it's game face on or Putin the Chess player will clean their clocks.

 

[Waylander]

What kind of US or Israeli equipment did they get?

Apart from some Humvees and some Israeli TIs I can't remember any more stuff.

 

[Grand Danois]

Moderators,
I know you don't want to discuss politics and energy in this thread, however both are critical to villify the Russian action. With those two issues off the table we are left with the military situation on the ground Georgia started a full scale military adventure into an area that does not want them.

Of course, if one ignores developments since the breakup of USSR this holds true.

Then the Russian military went in to save their own people at the same time crushed the army trained you the US and Israel and also captured tons of NATO, US, and Isreali equipement and carted it off to Moscow (thanks Georgia).

Have anyone done an inventory of the Georgian military? To me it looks as if the vast majority of arms were provided by E Europe - i.e. ex-WarPac equipment.

Remember when the US begines a Military Adventure there is time for planning rehersal and pre-deployment, since this was a reaction and not a pre-planned invasion not every thing went well for them, you can bet they are a lessons learned and will be better next time.

Sakaashvilii also acted on a whim.

 

[kato]

waylander: German rifles? :lol

 

[Grand Danois]

What kind of US or Israeli equipment did they get?

Apart from some Humvees and some Israeli TIs I can't remember any more stuff.

Israeli UAVs and avionics upgrades for their strike fighters. I an't think of more. I think the US provided some small arms.

It was mostly Ex-WarPac armour which was carted off by the Russians.

@ Kato. German rifles?

 

[Waylander]

@Kato
nfloorl:

@GD
I know of the UAVs, I wanted to know what Western equipment the Russians grabbed besides the Humvees and the TIs of the T-72s.

Re the German rifles.
Some Georgian units field G36s.

Some German or US small arms is nothing I would describe as a good booty...

 

[kato]

The Presidential Guard and some Special Forces got a couple hundred G36 that featured rather prominently on TV a couple times.

Caused some minor row in German politics, as there was no export permission to Georgia, and the rifles were likely rerouted through some PMC agency.

 

[ROCK45]

War

Topmaul
Moderators,
I know you don't want to discuss politics and energy in this thread, however both are critical to villify the Russian action. With those two issues off the table we are left with the military situation on the ground Georgia started a full scale military adventure into an area that does not want them.

Then the Russian military went in to save their own people at the same time crushed the army trained you the US and Israel and also captured tons of NATO, US, and Isreali equipement and carted it off to Moscow (thanks Georgia). Remember when the US begines a Military Adventure there is time for planning rehersal and pre-deployment, since this was a reaction and not a pre-planned invasion not every thing went well for them, you can bet they are a lessons learned and will be better next time.

Looks like the US got by Putin he is going to come out of this smelling like a rose once the dust settles. Europe better get it's game face on or Putin the Chess player will clean their clocks.

Very interesting way of looking at things I’m still not sure if Georgia was suckered into this or made some bad choices. Georgia may have realized a full scale attack was going happen anyway and decided to strike first I don’t know. I personally have no way of really knowing but I know that situations can be setup to look a certain way. I don’t know if this is the case here and I may be totally wrong I can accept that I’m not from Georgia I don’t know all the facts only what is reported.
You mention the Russian military went in to save their own people? Ever wonder why passports were given out in the first place in this one section of S.Ossetia? There are reasons for this and is not an accident you make sound like Russia’s just doing a nice thing saving some of their own people who just happen to hold Russian passports. This fact was released to the public and again not by accident don’t you think the common person in Russia following this would support Russia government/military choices here? I don’t pretend to know why or what the facts here are but there is a lot of unmentioned information in this entire situation. Don’t you think Georgia military knew there was a chance Russia air force was going to pound the crap out of them? Sometimes fighting breaks out when you don’t have a choice anyway.

crushed the army trained you the US and Israel and also captured tons of NATO, US, and Isreali equipement and carted it off to Moscow (thanks Georgia).

You make the Georgia sound like they bought billions of dollars of American and Israeli arms over the course years from them a field a large and modern armed force? Other here can better explain what that training was and can provide a rough breakdown on the weapons. You do realize Georgia didn’t have any fighters and is smaller than the State in which you live it? Did you really expect a different turn out then what happen? I know I didn’t maybe a little surprise it took as long as it did I knew how it would end.
Why do you think the US and NATO ships are there for? Think Su-24 (one of my favorites) or Su-25, would be as effective against a modern air defense? Russia would have to use much more of the assets in that region to take on a handful of modern ships. I’m not saying it couldn’t be done but there would be a lot of outbound missile taking out Russian assets. I don’t think a shooting war would even start between Russia and US over this. The US could move an ungodly amount of air assets very quickly into this region to protect those ships if need be. I strongly feel no direct fighting between Russian forces and Americans forces will take place.

Looks like the US got by Putin he is going to come out of this smelling like a rose once the dust settles. Europe better get it's game face on or Putin the Chess player will clean their clocks.

Well in the end isn’t Georgia still going to have the second largest pipeline in the world cutting through their country carrying 10 million barrels of oil per day? I think if Georgia can stop having wars with giants that they have chance of doing good. BP (United Kingdom): 30.1% percent, Eni/Agip (Italy): 5.00%, Total (France): 5.0%, StatoilHydro (Norway): 8.71% , so Europe is putting on their game face thus the NATO ships and now their radar’s tied into NATO. Others are State Oil Company of Azerbaijan (SOCAR) (Azerbaijan): 25.00%, Türkiye Petrolleri Anonim Ortaklığı (TPAO) (Turkey): 6.53%. There a few American and two from Japan who own a shares in this pipeline as well.

 

[DefConGuru]

We must also keep in mind that North Ossetia is in Russia so as far as the Russian government is concerned South Ossetians carrying Russian passports (a ploy no doubt, but easily justifiable) are citizens of Russia proper.

 

[eckherl]

What kind of US or Israeli equipment did they get?

Apart from some Humvees and some Israeli TIs I can't remember any more stuff.

Their tactical communications equipment setup in their armor vehicles came from the U.S, comparable to SINGARS.

 

[DefConGuru]

Their tactical communications equipment setup in their armor vehicles came from the U.S, comparable to SINGARS.

Interesting. Was there anything completely new and unproven used by the Georgians for a sort of proxy field test?

 

[John Sansom]

Thanks, Rock45, for your "situational" report--although I suspect some S. Ossetian-induced unfriendliness was well underway before Georgian troops went in. I have seen one report claiming that S. Ossetian irregulars were firing into Georgia some three days before the Georgian military response. However, the judge should instruct the jury to ignore that claim as hearsay because I can't find the source.

As far as arms "booty" goes, we should have seen evidence of this wondrous haul long before now as Russian "proof" of a fully fledged, US-sponsored Georgian assault on peaceful Russian passport holders. Does anybody remember the "proof" the Chinese put forward of American germ warfare efforts in Korea? Come on, you remember Korea... That was when the South Koreans savagely assaulted the peaceful North Korean army types who just wanted to pay a friendly visit to Seoul (bringing their tanks and artillery with them). This current scenario has certain very familiar elements to it.

For those who think I'm being unfair to the Russians, I can only speak on the basis of personal experience....but I have had very friendly, even buddy-buddy, relations with a number of Russian folk; among them a colonel in the NKVD and another the skipper of a large and scarey naval vessel.

 

[Feanor]

As for combat before the war started it was going on for almost a week with shooting from both sides. Both sides accused each other of using artillery. At the end we don't know, and probably won't know, who started it. Meanwhile MoD is announcing that the 58th Army will be re-armed in the near future.

 

[Chrom]

Very interesting way of looking at things I’m still not sure if Georgia was suckered into this or made some bad choices. Georgia may have realized a full scale attack was going happen anyway and decided to strike first I don’t know.

Imagine what would you say if Russian attacked first and they excuse was "may have realized a full scale attack was going happen anyway and decided to strike first". There is no if and buts. If Georgian realized Russians are goonna attack anyway -then they should cry loud and DONT attack russians. Weak excuse. Just read what Georgian official propaganda told 08.08. They all presented this as "operation to restore constitution order in S. Ossetia" and "Thanks our Russian peacekeepers for restraining from the conflict". And that in the exact same time they bombarded said peacekeepers...

You mention the Russian military went in to save their own people? Ever wonder why passports were given out in the first place in this one section of S.Ossetia? There are reasons for this and is not an accident you make sound like Russia’s just doing a nice thing saving some of their own people who just happen to hold Russian passports.

This conflict was in place for a very long time, since the fall of USSR. Ossetia was never really part of Georgia - it was always a part of Russian empire, which also included Georgia. S.Ossetian always behaved itself as part of Russia.

By Russian laws everyone with previous USSR citizenship could receive Russian passport. Plus, every one with close relatives of Russian citizenship can receive russian passport. Plus everyone studied in Russian schools/high schools. Now, remember, North Ossetia is part of Russia. S. Ossetians have a LOT of relatives there. I think everyone have at least 1. Most of them also studied in Russia. ALL of them were USSR citizens.

But even without that. Georgian attacked russian peace keepers. Every self-respecting country should protect they own soldiers if it is possible. NOT just evacuate remains of them. But actually do something to punish agressor.

This fact was released to the public and again not by accident don’t you think the common person in Russia following this would support Russia government/military choices here? I don’t pretend to know why or what the facts here are but there is a lot of unmentioned information in this entire situation. Don’t you think Georgia military knew there was a chance Russia air force was going to pound the crap out of them? Sometimes fighting breaks out when you don’t have a choice anyway.

There is a lot of unmentioned information in Western public medias. But if you really want to get information - it is not hard even if you follow Western publications. Just dont use public medias like TV or newspapers. These are much too much influenced by redaction politic and propaganda.
Use history researches.

You make the Georgia sound like they bought billions of dollars of American and Israeli arms over the course years from them a field a large and modern armed force? Other here can better explain what that training was and can provide a rough breakdown on the weapons. You do realize Georgia didn’t have any fighters and is smaller than the State in which you live it? Did you really expect a different turn out then what happen? I know I didn’t maybe a little surprise it took as long as it did I knew how it would end.

Yes, Georgia IS small. Thats why it shouldnt be ruled by such crazy idiots. IF we go pure military. Do you realize how much forces used Russia in this conflict? I hint you - less than Georgia in first 3 days, about as much in last 2 days. This even including aviation. By all accounts russians almost didnt used fighters anyway.

Why do you think the US and NATO ships are there for? Think Su-24 (one of my favorites) or Su-25, would be as effective against a modern air defense?

Su-24/Su-25 were never meant in anti-ship role. For controlling Black Sea Russians have Tu-22M3 aviation, Black Sea fleet and (HAMMER!!) coastal AShM's batteries which can cover entire Black Sea and which are obviously invulnerable to anything NATO could get to Black Sea.

ANY ship in Black Sea. With ANY air defense. Is just big sitting helpless target for these big mean AShM's.
NATO, theoretically, can sink every russian ship in Black Sea. But NATO never will be able to get any own ship there also.

Russia would have to use much more of the assets in that region to take on a handful of modern ships. I’m not saying it couldn’t be done but there would be a lot of outbound missile taking out Russian assets. I don’t think a shooting war would even start between Russia and US over this. The US could move an ungodly amount of air assets very quickly into this region to protect those ships if need be. I strongly feel no direct fighting between Russian forces and Americans forces will take place.

Any direct attack on Russia assets will met full force response. If it is not enough - even nuclear response. US cant move anything in the area without Turkey permission. Even with such permission Turkey airfields will be very vulnerable to russians cruise missiles attack, so NATO will be denied its most major advantage - air power.

You greatly underestimate the difficulties to fight Russians in THEY home, especially from such relative unprepared infrastructure as Turkey.

Well in the end isn’t Georgia still going to have the second largest pipeline in the world cutting through their country carrying 10 million barrels of oil per day? I think if Georgia can stop having wars with giants that they have chance of doing good. BP (United Kingdom): 30.1% percent, Eni/Agip (Italy): 5.00%, Total (France): 5.0%, StatoilHydro (Norway): 8.71% , so Europe is putting on their game face thus the NATO ships and now their radar’s tied into NATO. Others are State Oil Company of Azerbaijan (SOCAR) (Azerbaijan): 25.00%, Türkiye Petrolleri Anonim Ortaklığı (TPAO) (Turkey): 6.53%. There a few American and two from Japan who own a shares in this pipeline as well.

Yes, they better concentrate on pipelines and NOT on ethic cleansing with saber rattling.

 

[Waylander]

Yeah right and you are talking about eeeeevil western propaganda.


Anyway, do we know what most of the US advisors where doing?
Looking at the awfull performance of the Georgian forces I suspect they mostly trained Georgian units for their Iraq deployments while implementing good old conventional combined arms warfare was not very high on the to do list.

 

[Chrom]

I have seen one report claiming that S. Ossetian irregulars were firing into Georgia some three days before the Georgian military response. However, the judge should instruct the jury to ignore that claim as hearsay because I can't find the source.

There were regular fire exchanges between the 2 sides. Almost every week. Impossible to tell who started them - but keep in mind time played on S.Ossetia side. It was Georgians who were driven off the S. Ossetia and were full of revenge. With every year S.Ossetia gained more and more ground for independence, and all they need was peace.

As far as arms "booty" goes, we should have seen evidence of this wondrous haul long before now as Russian "proof" of a fully fledged, US-sponsored Georgian assault on peaceful Russian passport holders. Does anybody remember the "proof" the Chinese put forward of American germ warfare efforts in Korea? Come on, you remember Korea... That was when the South Koreans savagely assaulted the peaceful North Korean army types who just wanted to pay a friendly visit to Seoul (bringing their tanks and artillery with them). This current scenario has certain very familiar elements to it.

.

Common, with military and civilian advisors on many vital places inside Georgian military and government - US certainly knew about they attack in advance, even IF didnt sanctioned it. Moreover, Georgian army were fully built and designed to combat separatists. Who designed Georgian army? Mainly US managers and instructors, with some training help from Israel instructors.