Caucasian Powderkeg?
- Thread starter Feanor
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Sure, stereotypical Georgian names are rather ... unique in comparison to Russian ones - but not everyone in Scandinavia has a name ending in -son either (exact same, with -schwili). Names don't tell about anything anymore in the CIS. The biggest tank producer in Ukraine carries that name as well. There's a good number of Morozovs in the Baltic, Ukraine and Kavkaz, not all "Ethnic Russians".Well, I can't give you exact figures, but "the Prime Minister" of the "South Ossetian Republic" is Yuri Morozov. Sounds rather Russian to me
BlackAdder
New Member
Well, he was born in Bashkiria.
Yes. You called them "ethnic Russians", not "Russian citizens". The evidence suggests that you were unaware of their ethnicity.
BTW, have you not noticed that those Ossetians are the same ones who Russia simultaneously supports the independence of (funding its "independent" government), while claiming they are Russian citizens who need the protection of the Russian army? The whole thing is a transparent land grab by Russia.
Let us consider the implications of Russian actions.
1. You find a disgruntled ethnic minority across your borders.
2. You support (with arms, money & men), a rebellion by them.
3. Since their petty statelet is not internationally recognised, you give them your passports.
4. At the first excuse (e.g. the government of the state they rebelled against trying to reassert control), you invade "to protect your citizens".
5. (not yet implemented) You quietly incorporate the territory.
Note that according to the Russian citizenship acts of 1991 & 2002, as far as I can see the South Ossetians are not entitled to Russian citizenship. They were not born in Russia, nor (in most cases) are they descended from anyone born in Russia, nor are they former Soviet citizens resident in Russia. They qualified under Article 11 of the Compatriots Act of 1999, but this was revoked in 2002, & subsequent claims of citizenship under this act have not been recognised by Russian courts or executive agencies. I wonder on what basis South Ossetians are recognised as Russian citizens? Were they all registered in that 3 year period?
recce.k1
Well-Known Member
The Economists Edward Lucas has written about the dilemas this will cause to the West
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article4488503.ece
Also European energy independence from Russia could become threatened if Georgia falls. What will be the EU's/(NATO's?) stance?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article4488503.ece
Also European energy independence from Russia could become threatened if Georgia falls. What will be the EU's/(NATO's?) stance?
By "disgruntled", do you mean being mass murdered, ethnically cleansed, the leveling of whole cities and villages, etc.? That type of stuff?
So, what's the problem then? It's Russia's moral duty to protect these people (and I'm glad they're doing so). Even if it means annexing "parts of" Georgia (since clearly Georgia can't keep from violently oppressing these people).
Also, the West seems to have no problem with illegal and/or unilateral annexations, land grabs and secessions. In fact, alot of the time they support such actions (Israel, Kosovo, Tibet, Taiwan, etc.). But when it comes to their allies' lands, they label such actions as "illegal", "irresponsible", "destabilizing", "aggression", etc.
Also, remember that Georgia went in to this entirely by choice. And their killings of Russian peacekeepers was also entirely by choice. Nobody forced them to do it, nor was there any pressing national security issues that forced them to do it.
The latest in the swedish media:
Abkhazian forces led by Sergej Bagapsj are attacking Georgian military around Kodori Valley.
At least 2000 civilian deaths in Tschinivali alone.
Georgia is supported by EU and US. But they refuse to act.
The fighting in Tschinvali is fierce and goes back and forth and Russias military HQ there got shelled.
Abkhazia and S.Ossetia is of great strategic interest for Russia.
Abkhazian forces led by Sergej Bagapsj are attacking Georgian military around Kodori Valley.
At least 2000 civilian deaths in Tschinivali alone.
Georgia is supported by EU and US. But they refuse to act.
The fighting in Tschinvali is fierce and goes back and forth and Russias military HQ there got shelled.
Abkhazia and S.Ossetia is of great strategic interest for Russia.
According to your logic, the Russians should be treating the South Ossetians (who've previously done exactly what you describe to Georgians), the same as it is now treating the Georgians. Russia should also have invaded Abkhazia, to protect the Russians, Armenians, Greeks - and yes, Georgians - forced out of there. Abkhazia had a population of 525000 according to the 1989 census, of which 239000 were Georgian, 93000 Abkhaz, 77000 Armenians, 75000 Russians, & 15000 Greeks. According to the disputed 2003 census, there were 94000 Abkhaz - but only 46000 Georgians, 45000 Armenians, 23000 Russians & 1500 Greeks. Isn't it terrible what hose mass-murdering, ethnic-cleansing Abkhazians have done? But wait - Russia is supporting them. Oh dear. Where is their moral duty? And what about Chechnya?
Russia is displaying the rankest hypocrisy. Russias "moral duty" to Ossetians and Abkhazians up to last week had been practiced by destroying their economies, displacing large parts of their populations, & isolating them from the rest of the world. Russia could have put pressure on Georgia to guarantee the rights of its ethnic minorities, but has chosen instead to incite wars to detach parts of Georgia. The Russian troops in S. Ossetia were not peacekeepers, but supporting the separatist government - which is not truly an independence movement, but an arm of Russia.
Russia is displaying the rankest hypocrisy. Russias "moral duty" to Ossetians and Abkhazians up to last week had been practiced by destroying their economies, displacing large parts of their populations, & isolating them from the rest of the world. Russia could have put pressure on Georgia to guarantee the rights of its ethnic minorities, but has chosen instead to incite wars to detach parts of Georgia. The Russian troops in S. Ossetia were not peacekeepers, but supporting the separatist government - which is not truly an independence movement, but an arm of Russia.
FluffyThoughts
Member
5 Minutes Ago 11:08 AM merocaine
All true Swerve, but I cant help but feel that the south ossetians arent to keen on having the Georgians running the show.
Straw-man. Could say the same about the majority of the people north of the border from the twenty-six counties.
Russia cares not about South Ossetian freedom but - as Swerve commented - just annexation. Can't have the Azeris (via Georgia and Turkey) selling oil to the West, see...? :unknown
All true Swerve, but I cant help but feel that the south ossetians arent to keen on having the Georgians running the show.
Straw-man. Could say the same about the majority of the people north of the border from the twenty-six counties.
Russia cares not about South Ossetian freedom but - as Swerve commented - just annexation. Can't have the Azeris (via Georgia and Turkey) selling oil to the West, see...? :unknown
If you think "peace keepers" job is force Ossetians to join Georgia at any cost - then you are wrong. It could be surprise for you, but peace keepers job is actually prevent any violence, including - strangely, Georgian violence against Ossetians.
As for Russia supporting "separatists"... First, it is perfectly normal in current world. Everyone doing that. Second, if by "supporting" you understand lifting off economic embargoes - then again, Ossetians are legit humans like you and me, and have all rights to become food and medicine.
Yes, from formal Georgian point of view this is "contraband" since direct trade with Ossetians are prohibited by Georgians. So what?
Real point, before there were absolutely no other way to guarantee ossetians safety except evacuating them to Russia (keep in mind, ossetians would surely not agree with that) .
Now, since Georgians choose to "unite" Georgia forcefully... it is they choice. And they rights to take consequences.
Btw, Annexesion... Ossetia itself is useless land. There is nothing valuable there. If Russians wanted annexation - they could have done it any time last 15 years. Georgian couldnt military oppose it. Now, they just gave a great excuse to really do so, literally leaving no choice for Russia.
And?
Didn't the US invade Iraq on the grounds that Saddam was an oppressive dictator who committed genocide against his people (specifically the Kurds) even though the US (and other Western countries) supported him at the time he was gassing the Kurds? And in case you forgot, the US was supporting him for very immoral reasons.
My post wasn't even a serious one. It was meant to make fun of Americans' and westerners' false sense of moral superiority and hypocrisy when they talks about things like Bosnia, Iraq, (and now S.Ossetia) etc. I should have made it obvious, though.
You can't claim moral superiority nor do you have the moral authority criticize Russia's actions for being immoral seeing as how Western countries (particularly countries like yours which invaded Iraq in 2003) have done even more abhorrent things in the past to protect their interests.
Bears a stark resemblance to what the US, UK and allies did to Iraq when they "liberated" it. Doesn't it?
They have been for the past several years now. Georgia responded by leveling large parts of Tskhinvali while civilians were sleeping. Hundreds, most of whom probably are Russian citizens, are thought to be killed by the Georgian armed forces. Russia has no other choice but to defend them.
Can you prove this to me?
Also, S.Ossetians genuinely want independence from Georgia's violently oppressive government. This isn't just some movement created by Russia. This is a real movement by the people.
I'm going to ease of the politics, now (I think I've pushed my luck far enough). You can PM if you want though.
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Officially? Definitely not.
Inofficially? At most partway.
FluffyThoughts
Member
SkyNews: breaking news:
Russian PM [V. Putin] says dozens of civilians killed in South Ossetia. No genocide then....
Let's all hpe we get a clearer picture of what is happening soon. Nice to know that - 24-hours after a junket in Beijing - Vladimir had the foresight to arrange a flight straight to North Ossetia.
[Shame he could not be as bothered for the children of Beslan but, then again, he is a consummate politician (as was Charles Haughey, the crook)!]
Russian PM [V. Putin] says dozens of civilians killed in South Ossetia. No genocide then....
Let's all hpe we get a clearer picture of what is happening soon. Nice to know that - 24-hours after a junket in Beijing - Vladimir had the foresight to arrange a flight straight to North Ossetia.
[Shame he could not be as bothered for the children of Beslan but, then again, he is a consummate politician (as was Charles Haughey, the crook)!]
blablablub
New Member
If you ask a US government official or spokesman today, he'll say it was because Saddam was an oppressive dictator. And he'll say it like it was the official reason all along. He's not going to risk looking like an idiot and say WMD's.
And even if it was just the WMD's, the US supported Saddam while they knew he was in possession of them and supported him during his use of Chemical weapons against Iran and the Kurds in the 80's.
And he was much less likely to use them in 2003 than he was in the 80's yet the US still decided to support him then while he was using them but then invaded Iraq for the same reason in 2003.
And why do you say partway? This was one of the major reasons they gave when they were going to invade Iraq.
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FluffyThoughts
Member
SkyNews: breaking news
NATO ministers state that a solution to the South Ossetian crisis must be based upon Georgian integrity. One-nil to Shaskavilli.:
NATO ministers state that a solution to the South Ossetian crisis must be based upon Georgian integrity. One-nil to Shaskavilli.
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