Caucasian Powderkeg?

[Waylander]

Oh my - is this a Russian T-72BM.

Couldn't it very well be one of these heavily modernized Georgian T-72s? I always forget their designation. Wasn't it something like T-72MV?
I have to admit that I am really bad at seperating the modernized Russian and Georgian T-72s, especially when we only have grainy pictures.

 

[Waylander]

@Feanor
Maybe they are using parts of their strategic aviation because there are not enough tactical fighters in the area to conduct all the missions Russia wants to fly.
Maybe the assumption is right that Russia wanted to punish the Georgians as fast as possible before a possible ceasefire and the Tu-22M3s were the only ones available in time.

Even while maintenance and flying ours in Russia have improved over the last years it is still not easy to get ones fighting units up to wartime speed and performance in such a short time and with relatively small warning time.

 

[eaf-f16]

Well, you asked for it 1967 June 6, 8:17 PM Radio Cairo report "86 enemy aircraft has been destroyed" As for the Yom Kippur (or October, or Ramadan,whatever) war, yes there were 102 Israeli aircraft downed, I concur. However, that's not hundreds, if my English is correct . "Hundreds" were destroyed only in imagination of Arab propagandists. In Cairo and Damascus.

I asked for what? All I said was that the Israelis were lying wildly also.

At no point in time did I say Egypt (or Syria) wasn't lying.

I think you were just trying to bait me from the beginning with your dumbass reference to Egyptian-Israeli wars.

You just stick to giving your Lithuanian support to Georgia and denying its war crimes (nearly leveling whole cities).

 

[BlackAdder]

I think you were just trying to bait me from the beginning with your dumbass reference to Egyptian-Israeli wars.

You just stick to giving your Lithuanian support to Georgia and denying its war crimes (nearly leveling whole cities).

You just attach to much importance to yourself, my friend , if you seriously believe that selected you as a target of some harassment. Certainly, I stand to be rebuked for using only Egyptian examples of wildly exaggerated war reporting. I could have used Argentinian ones from the Falklands conflict, Soviet ones from Afghanistan, Nazi ones from WW2, the choice is limitless.

As for war crimes - as I said, let's wait until you'll have your facts, neat and wrapped up on the table. Until that moment both Georgians and Russians are on the same footing - both been known to lie outrageously. Though I would still give Russians an edge on that - all those years of TASS training could not have been totally wasted Coming from the country which is routinely accused of "suppressing Russian minority", "rewriting WW2 history" and "glorifying fascist crimes" I tend to take anything coming from Russia with more than a pinch of salt.

 

[eaf-f16]

Georgia is now proposing a ceasefire which will include their troops withdrawing from S.Ossetian capital (even though the Russian military says it had already freed large parts of it).

Georgia has also just declared a state of war.

Georgia reports that there were overnight Russian air strikes on a military base on the outskirts of the Georgian capital.

Edit: Georgia is saying that all 2,000 of its troops in Iraq are coming home to "join the fighting" as soon as transports are arranged.

A US military spokesman says the removal of Georgian troops will have no significant impact on Iraq's security.

 

[nevidimka]

Looking at Saakashvilli mking his statement in front of Georgian parliment just now makes me smile. He wants the world to see the painfull truth that is happening. He wants the world to come to his aid etc2. Why didnt he think about this b4 he went raining the rockets into the S.Ossetian town where there were civilians? And now he is claiming Russia is doing ethnic cleansing in Ossetia. IMO Georgia has more reasons to do Ethnic cleansing in Ossetia or chase away ethnic russians in that region than for russia to go n ethnic cleanse the georgians. He is becoming desperate.

Russia claims the civilian casualty at 1500. Looking at the surprise attack Georgia did by raining down Rockets from its MLRS in the middle of the night when most of the townfolk would have been sleeping makes it seem reasonable.

And is the Tu 22 being shot down for real? How did georgia shoot it down? Is there confirmation from the Russian side?

 

[baranek]

http://www.nasdaq.com/aspxcontent/N...Russian Planes Shot Down Over Georgia: Russia

 

[Chrom]

Russians officially confirmed 2 aircrafts lost. Rumors it is Su-25 and Tu-22, but here i cant find official confirmation.

Generally, Georgia is perfectly capable shooting down T-22M3. Especially, given russian urge to destroy as many targets as fast possible before likely cease fire, with insufficient aircraft forces, which leads to "thin" aircrafts distribution and weak support for bombing raids. All in all, i think it is right decision for russian airforce, even given higher risk.

(Almost) confirmed russian Navy ("Moskva" + Support) in Black Sea starting to moving from Sevastopol naval base.

Confirmed from all sides heavy russian bomber strikes against military installations all other Georgia.

As for ground forces situation... honestly i cant get good picture. Georgian medians are totally inadequate here, russian medians are much better but still have the habit to give day old information mixed with new information without explicitly differentiate it...

However, seems Ts'hinvali is not completely clear from Georgian troops, some of them remained there. Also seems they are surrounded. Reportedly, Georgian continue to use long-ranged artillery against russian troops around Ts'hinvali.

As i said, right now Russia dont have nearly enough ground troops there. Seems yesterday around 2 full battalions with support were deployed, now it should be somewhat more, probably up to 6-7 battalions total. Reports some battalions of 76 VDV division already deployed/deploying there.

From my PoV, after initial panic, Georgians realized how few russian forces really oppose them, and gained some courage.

 

[eaf-f16]

Looking at Saakashvilli mking his statement in front of Georgian parliment just now makes me smile. He wants the world to see the painfull truth that is happening. He wants the world to come to his aid etc2. Why didnt he think about this b4 he went raining the rockets into the S.Ossetian town where there were civilians? And now he is claiming Russia is doing ethnic cleansing in Ossetia. IMO Georgia has more reasons to do Ethnic cleansing in Ossetia or chase away ethnic russians in that region than for russia to go n ethnic cleanse the georgians. He is becoming desperate.

Russia claims the civilian casualty at 1500. Looking at the surprise attack Georgia did by raining down Rockets from its MLRS in the middle of the night when most of the townfolk would have been sleeping makes it seem reasonable.

And is the Tu 22 being shot down for real? How did georgia shoot it down? Is there confirmation from the Russian side?

That's what I wanna know. What type of ADS do they have?

The only fighter-jets in their air force of any significance are a few Israeli-upgraded Su-25's and most of those are reportedly destroyed or damaged now.

 

[Chrom]

That's what I wanna know. What type of ADS do they have?

The only fighter-jets in their air force of any significance are a few Israeli-upgraded Su-25's and most of those are reportedly destroyed now.

Definitely it wasnt any fighter-jet. Most likely SAM - Georgia have plenty of these, some of them like Buk-1M are still pretty capable. Hell, even old S-125 is enough if shooting by surprise.

 

[2S1]

Can you tell what kind of ADS do the Georgians have? I found nothing reliable on the internet about their ADS. Wiki says they have SA-11 but I don't trust it.

I would doubt SA-11 claims too, however Georgia has been active purchasing redundant former WarPac kit from new NATO nations like Poland and the Czech Republic.

Jane's quotes Georgia's principle Land Based Air Defence inventory as consisting of several-dozen Air Force controlled S-75M/SA-2, a smaller number of S-125M/SA-3 and a handful of S-200/SA-5. Their readiness rates are judged to be good and 3 modern surveillance radars were procurred in 2006. Plans for a fully integrated AD system however have been delayed by financial constraints.

The Army has a further several hundred (Russian sources claiming 200) Strela-2/SA-7, Strela3/SA-14 and Igla-1/SA-18 MANPADS. A small quantity of 9K31 Strela-1/SA-9 SP SAM systems are also claimed to be available.

Army AD units also have several dozen 100mm KS-19 AAA (some with SON-A radar fire control), as well as ageing 57mm S-60 and 23mm ZU-23.

 

[2S1]

Can you tell what kind of ADS do the Georgians have? I found nothing reliable on the internet about their ADS. Wiki says they have SA-11 but I don't trust it.

I would doubt SA-11 claims too, however Georgia has been active purchasing redundant former WarPac kit from new NATO nations like Poland and the Czech Republic.

Jane's quotes Georgia's principle Land Based Air Defence inventory as consisting of several-dozen Air Force controlled S-75M/SA-2, a smaller number of S-125M/SA-3 and a handful of S-200/SA-5. Their readiness rates are judged to be good and 3 modern surveillance radars were procurred in 2006. Plans for a fully integrated AD system however have been delayed by financial constraints.

The Army has a further several hundred (Russian sources claiming 200) Strela-2/SA-7, Strela3/SA-14 and Igla-1/SA-18 MANPADS. A small quantity of 9K31 Strela-1/SA-9 SP SAM systems are also claimed to be available.

Army AD units also have several dozen 100mm KS-19 AAA (some with SON-A radar fire control), as well as ageing 57mm S-60 and 23mm ZU-23.

 

[swerve]

... IMO Georgia has more reasons to do Ethnic cleansing in Ossetia or chase away ethnic russians in that region than for russia to go n ethnic cleanse the georgians. ...

What ethnic Russians? Before the break-up of the USSR, very few Russians lived in S. Ossetia. The population consisted almost entirely of Georgians & Ossetians - 29.0% Georgian, 66.2% Ossetian, 4.8% assorted others, according to the 1989 census, which was consistent with earlier censuses. Ethnic Russians have never been more than 2.5% of the population, according to the Soviet censuses.

The population balance has since been affected by flight of both Ossetians & Georgians. The numbers fleeing are unknown, & it should be noted that the highest quoted figures add up to more than the entire 1989 population, which was only 99000.

 

[eaf-f16]

What ethnic Russians? Before the break-up of the USSR, very few Russians lived in S. Ossetia. The population consisted almost entirely of Georgians & Ossetians - 29.0% Georgian, 66.2% Ossetian, 4.8% assorted others, according to the 1989 census, which was consistent with earlier censuses. Ethnic Russians have never been more than 2.5% of the population, according to the Soviet censuses.

The population balance has since been affected by flight of both Ossetians & Georgians. The numbers fleeing are unknown, & it should be noted that the highest quoted figures add up to more than the entire 1989 population, which was only 99000.

I think he might have meant Ossetians with Russian citizenship?

He probably got confused between people saying that they're ethnically distinct from Georgia and that they have Russian citizenship and concluded that they are ethnic Russians.

That's not the case, though, as you pointed out.

On a more relevant note; can some one confirm that the Georgians have SA-11 or any other "double-digit" SAM's? I can't find anything (except for Wiki which we know is garbage).

 

[2S1]

On a more relevant note; can some one confirm that the Georgians have SA-11 or any other "double-digit" SAM's? I can't find anything (except for Wiki which we know is garbage).

Had another look through the IISS and SIPRI Database, can't find any references to SA-11 or any other "double-digit" SA system.

However, SIPRI does claim that the Ukraine delivered some 49 SA-8 systems between 2005 and 2006. Jane's Land Based Air Defence does not include this in thier estimates.

 

[swerve]

I think he might have meant Ossetians with Russian citizenship?

He probably got confused between people saying that they're ethnically distinct from Georgia and that they have Russian citizenship and concluded that they are ethnic Russians.

I agree. The sort of mistake that indicates a level (or lack of) of knowledge of the matter that perhaps ought to lead one to refrain from comment.

 

[BlackAdder]

What ethnic Russians? Before the break-up of the USSR, very few Russians lived in S. Ossetia. The population consisted almost entirely of Georgians & Ossetians - 29.0% Georgian, 66.2% Ossetian, 4.8% assorted others, according to the 1989 census, which was consistent with earlier censuses. Ethnic Russians have never been more than 2.5% of the population, according to the Soviet censuses.

The population balance has since been affected by flight of both Ossetians & Georgians. The numbers fleeing are unknown, & it should be noted that the highest quoted figures add up to more than the entire 1989 population, which was only 99000.

Well, I can't give you exact figures, but "the Prime Minister" of the "South Ossetian Republic" is Yuri Morozov. Sounds rather Russian to me

 

[2S1]

Georgian Military Equipment

Just going through SIPRI's (Stockholm International Peace Research Institute) arms transfers databse for Georgia and one thing that jumped out is the large amount of ATGW that it claims Georgia has received since 2006.

9M111/AT-4 - 450 missiles received from Bulgaria.
9M114/AT-6 - 758 missiles received from Kazakhstan.

 

[nevidimka]

I agree. The sort of mistake that indicates a level (or lack of) of knowledge of the matter that perhaps ought to lead one to refrain from comment.

Yes i ment Ossetians who are considered Russians by Russia due to them holding Russian passports. Its a small mistake by me. So you want me to stop commenting then?

On the ongoing situation :
- Russia mobilizes Black sea fleet on georgia's coast.
- georgians are fleeing Tbilisi. The main airport is crowded with ppl trying to get out.

 

[eckherl]

Couldn't it very well be one of these heavily modernized Georgian T-72s? I always forget their designation. Wasn't it something like T-72MV?
I have to admit that I am really bad at seperating the modernized Russian and Georgian T-72s, especially when we only have grainy pictures.

In the picture the ERA package seems to be bolted flush to the turret, a characteristic of a true Russian T-72B series, Georgians use alot of the following models which come from the Ukrainians and Czechs, majority are: T-72AV and T-72 SIM-1 which is a tank with upgraded GPS, Communications, FCS. Both models have the mounting set up to form a V shaped stand off ERA package. With all the bloody different models that are being thrown into this armed conflict that look the same on all three sides we may just have to waite and see when and if a ceasefire is called to get a tally on what was lost on all three sides and what models, did you notice the Russian T-72`s equipped with K5 ERA.

@Extern,

Please weigh in on Russian armored tactics and vehicle performance during this skirmish when you find out please. I wonder exactually how many Georgian tanks are still on the active roster at this point in the game.