They have more than just 77 T-72s that were given to them from Hungary, are you under the impression that we destroyed all the former ones that they had in service. And I have stated this on prior posts but here it goes again, Iraq has more Type 59 and 69s in service or boneyards than they do T-55s.
Could you elaborate a little inregards to what Eastern Europe needs to be concerned with when it comes to their armor.
Are you hungry? The nation's called HungaryThey have more than just 77 T-72s that were given to them from Hungry, are you under the impression that we destroyed all the former ones that they had in service. And I have stated this on prior posts but here it goes again, Iraq has more Type 59 and 69s in service or boneyards than they do T-55s.
As someone stated in another forum, if Iraq could buy a neat package of new "infrastructure" in the supermarket they surely would, but it's not that easy.
OOPS! sorry for the mis-spell,Are you hungry? The nation's called Hungary
And yes, indeed I had the false impression that you guys sweeped out their earlier equipment pretty good. Sorry bout that.
And most times I'm not imaginative enough to make a difference between T-55 and Type-59/69. I know they are different tanks, but their capabilities, design and I guess logistic footprints are very similar so I often treat them as the same.
Do you have exact numbers on Iraqs current ORBAT and ToE?
They have to be able to provide an equivalent system to the package the Iraqis requested. Obviously, that isn't going to be knock off T-72's and such. It would have to be the more modern variants WITH the COMMs to integrate with the new Iraqi C4ISR network. Not an insurmountable task at all. But a bit more of a chore and a lot more expensive compared to refurbishing some old Soviet era tanks. I wasn't implying any tactical deficiencies whatsoever despite my obvious love of the Abrams system considering it was my first mount!Could you elaborate a little inregards to what Eastern Europe needs to be concerned with when it comes to their armor.
Agreed - the M1 series is not the logistical nightmare that everyone makes them out to be, not any more than other advanced tanks that are out there. Are they going to upgrade all of their tactical vehicles with the C4ISR networksystem. I know that Iraq was looking at Ukrainian T-84s at one point and felt that it was a capable advanced tank, it surely is just as good if not better than a Russian T-90A, but yes, the pickings for advanced Eastern armor is very slim.
I don't want to get too far off on a tangent BUT. Just like modern warplanes, a lot of how effective these systems are is determined in the electronic domain. Take the M1117 for instance. A vehicle I had to use on a number instances. I attended special training on it and when I saw how much the electronics cost(mostly after market) my eyes almost popped out. Granted there are reasons we spend that money and if you know what I'm refering to you know why. But this is the way things are going. COMMS, EW and BFT technologies are critical considerations if you want to be modern. These things are real force multipliers and when we are talking about such a small number of tanks, only 140, you need this stuff to a certain extent. Now, I know Eastern tanks can be had with some pretty kick azz active protection systems and secure comms but this does futher complicate things logistically and can introduce interoperability issues that need to be worked out. You can have the biggest baddest tank, but if it can't talk to allies or reliably communicate with others then its lost a great deal of capability. It takes cold hard cash to work these kinds of issues out and we have had to do it on A LOT of vehicles. Again, its not a show stopper for a T-90, T-84 or other non US tank but it is something that would have to be considered. SHOOT, MOVE, COMMUNICATE. The Shooting part is often the easiest.
Yes, these are the most critical aspects when operating on the battlefield, but they can shoe horn in any type of communications networking system that they want, example being - people were a little shocked during the first U.S Gulf war when some of the Iraqi tanks were set up with U.S radios along with Vincent devices. Surely some of our new NATO partners are operating with modern communication networking systems on board their older T- series tanks. Have you seen the cost of a M1A2 upgrade to SEP, all I can say is HOLY S_IT.
Could you elaborate on what BFT technologies are? It is not an acronym that I am familiar with.
That is in fact a false statement, L16A1 propellant charges have in fact given inaccuracy issues when firing Charm three ammunition, isnt L27 and L27A1 designed for L30. you also have designed a L30A1. I will not even go into the Challenger 2 trials conducted by the Greeks who in fact found accuracy issues with a wide array of projectiles, the issue is the charges when fired during extreme temperatures, just ask yourself why the Arjun went with a full size combustable cartridge, I would agree with you that a design change would have to be done to the rear of the turret for a bustle loading system, but this should not be a show stopper or cost loads of money for this upgrade, and why even place a bulk supply of ammunition in the hull, not saying that it cannot be done because it can be done with the safety feature of blowoff panels as demonstrated on a XK2.
if i recommend a tank for iraq it would be the T84 yatagon its better then the T90 and its good for all conditions and a good gun 120mm smoothe bore gun L50I would have thought they'd buy something more along the lines of the T80's which are still produced in the Ukraine, or the T90's produced by russia at the moment. The T90 is about half the price of an M1 and is Diesel rather then Turbine powered, so it would probably be easier to maintain.
But i guess its the decision of the Iraqi government and their US Advisors. Maybe they got scared off the T90 because its a T72 Derivative
Not at all. I mean Saudis have them, and they're quite a bit more unpleasant then the current Iraqi government. Not to mention that the variant they're likely to get would be M1A1. I don't see the M1A2, never mind SEP, being sold to them. And it's only 140 units. Less then a single armored division.