Iraq to Receive M1's?!

[DarthAmerica]

http://lenta.ru/news/2008/08/04/abrams/
http://www.menewsline.com/article-1159,1134-U-S-Plans-Abrams-Sale-To-Iraq.aspx

Whoa. No T-84 for the Iraqi Army. They're going for the M1. Is it feasible? How soon could it happen? And finally (western equipment is a bit of a weak point for me) what's the main differences between the M1A1 and M1A2?

The biggest difference is the CITV(Commanders Independent Thermal Viewer) and the .50 Cal HMG is no longer fired remotely under armor. Its a traditional butterfly handle .50 Cal. It also has the IVIS(intervehicular information system) that displays digital data and can xmit info through the SINGARS. Say I see a Company of BMPs off in the distance. I can get precise MGRS Grid and xmit that to artillery unit and Ka-Boom. All without using my organic weapons. There is also an APU that allows me to shut the gas guzzling turbine down and run the electronics and turret. Those would be the main differences. And it's very feasible. When I was in AOBC we had a lot a foreign students in clas with us and I have also worked along side as liason for other Middle Easern Armor Officers training on Abrams.

-DA

 

[eaf-f16]

It would be nightmare for Iraqis to keep Abrams going - plus, of course, a BIG pile of money.

Money isn't going to be a problem for Iraq. I read an article today that said that the Iraqi government is projected to have well over $70 Billion of public revenue this year.

 

[DarthAmerica]

Money isn't going to be a problem for Iraq. I read an article today that said that the Iraqi government is projected to have well over $70 Billion of public revenue this year.

Money is no problem. The Iraqis would also not be the first Abrams user in the region. The tank is manufactured locally to the region and the Iraqis can fall in on the U.S. Army logistics and support infrastructure for the Abrams. The Iraqis are likely to get Current U.S. Army Abrams in theater as we decrease our footprint. It's a very reasonable proposal. Not only that, but the old Iraqi Army tank force is in a state of severe decay...

Besides, the Iraqis know just how effective the Abrams are now.

-DA

 

[eckherl]

Never ever. IF (a big if IMHO but maybe I am going to see a surprise) they get Abrams they are going to get refurbished ones.

One question is if they are able to maintain them properly.
Their maintenance and training record was not stellar when they were still using T-72s and Type 69s.
I bet they need to rely heavily on contractors if they want to get a high rate of availability and decent training in the near future.
The same would go for a beast like the Leclerc and to a lightly lesser extent for T-90s and T-84s.

And I am questioning if it is wise to spend alot of their available money for new shiny military kit.
As if there is nothing else to do in their country...

They are not going to get them, especially the ones stationed in Iraq, classified issues inregards to armor, if this deal was to go thru then they will most surely get something along the lines of what Egypt has. Congress will have this shot down within 30 days of notice.

 

[eckherl]

Money is no problem. The Iraqis would also not be the first Abrams user in the region. The tank is manufactured locally to the region and the Iraqis can fall in on the U.S. Army logistics and support infrastructure for the Abrams. The Iraqis are likely to get Current U.S. Army Abrams in theater as we decrease our footprint. It's a very reasonable proposal. Not only that, but the old Iraqi Army tank force is in a state of severe decay...

Besides, the Iraqis know just how effective the Abrams are now.

-DA

Tanks have already been approved to help off set that decay, look for many M60 series and T-72 tanks. We would never leave Army nor Marine M1 series tanks in Iraq due to the ingredients in the armor that is carried, and the armor is different than the other three Middle Eastern country users. Australia is a different matter. Also the manufacturing process consists of building knock off kits.

 

[DarthAmerica]

Tanks have already been approved to help off set that decay, look for many M60 series and T-72 tanks. We would never leave Army nor Marine M1 series tanks in Iraq due to the ingredients in the armor that is carried, and the armor is different than the other three Middle Eastern country users. Australia is a different matter. Also the manufacturing process consists of building knock off kits.

I know the armor is different. However, based on things I've heard I would not be so sure about which Abrams they get and I know serious discussions about old U.S. Army Abrams have taken place. We could rebuild them like we did the Aust Abrams. M60's and T-72's ain't gonna cut it IMV for what the Iraqis have in mind.

-DA

 

[eckherl]

I know the armor is different. However, based on things I've heard I would not be so sure about which Abrams they get and I know serious discussions about old U.S. Army Abrams have taken place. M60's and T-72's ain't gonna cut it IMV.

-DA

They are in need of a estimation of around 800 tanks that are needed like right now, the only way they are going to get that many in a short period of time will be the realistic aspect of going after second rate armor which there is a abundance of. Look for Greece to be one of the biggest contributors with Poland right behind them.

I have already been informed that this proposal has a slim chance of getting past congress, and that is from a reliable source, General Dynamics who was pushing for the deal.

Also - are we not rotating heavy armor out of theater of operations and staging it in Kuwait.

 

[DarthAmerica]

They are in need of a estimation of around 800 tanks that are needed like right now, the only way they are going to get that many in a short period of time will be the realistic aspect of going after second rate armor which there is a abundance of. Look for Greece to be one of the biggest contributors with Poland right behind them.

I have already been informed that this proposal has a slim chance of getting past congress, and that is from a reliable source, General Dynamics who was pushing for the deal.

Also - are we not rotating heavy armor out of theater of operations and staging it in Kuwait.

They aren't looking for 800 though. It's a smaller number in addition to the older tanks. I still have reason to believe there is a chance this could go through. That's the feeling of more than a few of us but I won't bet any money one way or the other. And Kuwait really isn't out of theater if you know what I mean.

-DA

 

[F-15 Eagle]

Never ever. IF (a big if IMHO but maybe I am going to see a surprise) they get Abrams they are going to get refurbished ones.

Oh great downsize the U.S. tank force by 140 to give them to Iraq with a very uncertain future. Not only would it weaken America's tank force but 20 years from now the U.S. could go to war with Iraq again and the Iraqis could use those M1s that we gave to them against us for all we know. I really hope congress rejects this sale.

 

[F-15 Eagle]

Does anyone have a reliable source on how many M1 of all versions there are in US Army and USMC inventory ?

I'm not too sure but I think there are around 8000 maybe? Someone please correct me if I am wrong thanks.

 

[eckherl]

They aren't looking for 800 though. It's a smaller number in addition to the older tanks. I still have reason to believe there is a chance this could go through. That's the feeling of more than a few of us but I won't bet any money one way or the other. And Kuwait really isn't out of theater if you know what I mean.

-DA

Correct - the 800 number comes from second rate armor, they want to build a couple of armored battalions of a newer type tank. I guess we will have to see what happens with in the next 30 days to see how Congress approaches it. Yes - maybe a better comment should of been that they are being pulled out of the line of fire and staged in a more secure area.

 

[Chrom]

Money isn't going to be a problem for Iraq. I read an article today that said that the Iraqi government is projected to have well over $70 Billion of public revenue this year.

Money is ALWAYS a problem, especially for such ruined poor country as Iraq. Or do you think Iraq government should spend all money on new shiny tanks and let own peoples starve and die from lack of water? Because they still couldnt find the money to repair water supply lines?

There is one thing i would agree however: Iraq money is no problem for US government Thats why M1 deal looks quite possible.

 

[winnyfield]

A few countries in the regional already have Abrams, so the Iraqis might get the same variant/s and logistics line. I suspect they're there just in case there are problems with Iran - Arab M1s vs Persian T72/M60. For the insurgency/ies the Iraqis have apparently been looking at MRAPs - the US looks likely to cut further orders.

Realistically of the western offerings, it was really on;y the M1 and Leclerc. The Germans are probably uncomfortable exporting Leo2s to Iraq while the Chally 2 production line (I think) has been closed for some while (not many surplus either). The French love exporting military equipment. The spanking that the Iraqis previously got from M1s probably had a impact.

 

[Chrom]

A few countries in the regional already have Abrams, so the Iraqis might get the same variant/s and logistics line. I suspect they're there just in case there are problems with Iran - Arab M1s vs Persian T72/M60. For the insurgency/ies the Iraqis have apparently been looking at MRAPs - the US looks likely to cut further orders.

Realistically of the western offerings, it was really on;y the M1 and Leclerc. The Germans are probably uncomfortable exporting Leo2s to Iraq while the Chally 2 production line (I think) has been closed for some while (not many surplus either). The French love exporting military equipment. The spanking that the Iraqis previously got from M1s probably had a impact.

Do you really think Iraq "government" opinion play/played any role in the decision?

 

[eckherl]

Do you really think Iraq "government" opinion play/played any role in the decision?

Actually it did, they can go with just about anyone or anywhere that they want including Russia but they will not chance pissing off the Ukrainians who have been there with support for them. Things will be interesting for Iraq during the next five years to see how their force structure is set up and the equipment that will be used, it will not be all U.S equipment.

 

[DarthAmerica]

Actually it did, they can go with just about anyone or anywhere that they want including Russia but they will not chance pissing off the Ukrainians who have been there with support for them. Things will be interesting for Iraq during the next five years to see how their force structure is set up and the equipment that will be used, it will not be all U.S equipment.

Chrom,

The Iraqi government is a sovern* entity. And they already operate a mix of equipment. On one of my last "jaunt's down the road" I saw a formation of Mi-17's and UH-1's, all Iraqi Army, conducting an air assault. I've been through IA check points where Iraqi Soldiers were armed with M1114's or Up Armored M998's with DShK HMGs. I've seen their "Joes" carrying M-16's and AK-47s with PKM for machine guns. So having Abrams and T series tanks is not going to be anything new from their experience.

Also, any notion that they don't have a choice is simply not true. They can buy whatever they want so long as it's available for sale and the USG has no issue with that. We are here to help, protect and advice not to dominate or control them.

-DA

 

[DavidDCM]

They have a number of T-tanks in service already, so the purchase of the M1 would cause a mix of Eastern and Western equipment in any way. If they could not handle that, than they would not even try to opt for the Abrams.

Their armoured forces so far are 77 refurbished T-72 received from Hungary in 2005 (see here) and according to Wikipedia another armoured battalion of 72 T-55 in service (no source here so could be a false information). I don't think they will retire the T-72 anytime soon.

 

[Chrom]

Chrom,

The Iraqi government is a sovern* entity. And they already operate a mix of equipment. On one of my last "jaunt's down the road" I saw a formation of Mi-17's and UH-1's, all Iraqi Army, conducting an air assault. I've been through IA check points where Iraqi Soldiers were armed with M1114's or Up Armored M998's with DShK HMGs. I've seen their "Joes" carrying M-16's and AK-47s with PKM for machine guns. So having Abrams and T series tanks is not going to be anything new from their experience.

Also, any notion that they don't have a choice is simply not true. They can buy whatever they want so long as it's available for sale and the USG has no issue with that. We are here to help, protect and advice not to dominate or control them.

-DA

Would be real idiotic if Iraq army wouldnt operate all kinds of equipment. Even NATO countries often operate russian equipment in ex. Afghanistan or Africa.

I dont believe in sov. Iraq government. And i dont see any controversy if USA-controlled Iraq government operate any equipment, even russian ones.

 

[DarthAmerica]

Would be real idiotic if Iraq army wouldnt operate all kinds of equipment. Even NATO countries often operate russian equipment in ex. Afghanistan or Africa.

I dont believe in sov. Iraq government. And i dont see any controversy if USA-controlled Iraq government operate any equipment, even russian ones.

Don't look at it from a political point of view. Think logistics, training and integration. The Iraqis will be working most closely with the USA and western nations with regard to military matters. Besides a small numbers of troops and no logistics infrastructure to speak of, Eastern Europe could have some additional concerns to sort out with the latest armor from that side of Europe. Also, don't discount the fact that the Iraqis have seen the Abrams from both sides of the gun. So they know specifically what it is they want.

-DA

 

[gf0012-aust]

They can buy whatever they want so long as it's available for sale and the USG has no issue with that. We are here to help, protect and advice not to dominate or control them.

-DA

Exactly - the Iraqi's have bought chinese gear and the USG has had no issue with it.,