The Arjun Tank

[eckherl]

I am sorry eckherl, I do not have any details of ERA. I posted what I could recollect of an interview of a DRDO official. He specifically stated that upgrades will be only on second lot of Arjun (after first 128 ordered are inducted).

That's the reasom I am rather sceptical of claim of new low weight armor. IA's biggest grouse against Arjun being weight, I would have thought DRDO would have rushed to IA with a low weight version, without waiting for 128 tanks to be inducted.

But I may be completely wrong, as I am really out of touch.

(Damn it's real hard to take of two kids alone when wife is abroad due to an emergency!)

Regarding inclusion of Singapore wrt to protection system, take it with a load of salt.

Regarding 'Lahat'. it is Lahat! It ppears that OFB has acquired rights to licence build it, it was displayed in Defexpo 2008.

It looks we will have to waite and see on the armor package, protection system will be really interesting also on that outcome.

I can respect how busy you must be taking care of two kids, I had to take care of three of my own for two months a few years back and thought I was going to go insane, I hope everything is okay and works out with your family emergency.

 

[Feanor]

Dear, if Tank has to do all these things, then what these guys will do (Check the link given)
http://timesnow.tv/NewsDtls.aspx?NewsID=7035

Woot, India can build a cheap MLRS. Pride and joy of the Indian defense establishment...... come on. Even the DPRK can produce cheap as garbage MLRS systems in large numbers.

On a related note, are there any more news in regards to procurement plans of the Arjun?

 

[kay_man]

its called CLGM

its not the LAHAT !
arjun mk1 can fire lahat but its not BVR.
i could not get my hands on the full article there was some problem with the site but ill try to find another credible source........dont base ur conclusion on the 2 lines that are posted...and its not called LAHAT...its called CLGM.u guys might have heard about it.

it has a range of 6-8 kms.

 

[niteshkjain]

You have to just fall in love with some of the companies who design and build weapons platforms. The information given inregards to the M270 is for a outdated system, we now use M270A1s that have better electronics, reaction times, firing and reloading times, plus a rocket that will reach out and touch you at 300 KMs.

Sir
May be you had taken my point wrongly. I am trying to say that job of firing missiles/rockets can be done much more efficiently and with comparative minimum risk with MBLR system then with a tank. I was not trying to compare different systems.

My apologies.

 

[niteshkjain]

Woot, India can build a cheap MLRS. Pride and joy of the Indian defense establishment...... come on. Even the DPRK can produce cheap as garbage MLRS systems in large numbers.

On a related note, are there any more news in regards to procurement plans of the Arjun?

So if somebody produces a system which is cheaper then other system it means it is crap or what?

So according to you the system has to be costly to be called as a good system or what?

My point was that MBRL system can do the job of firing missiles more efficiently and with less risk as compared to tank.

Regarding Arjun: No new news, only getting the summer trials successful.

 

[Feanor]

My point was that it's nothing to be particularly proud of. If it works, great. Use it and be happy you don't need to import. But the article you linked to emphasized that the system is a sources of pride for the India military. Hence my sarcastic reply.

 

[yess]

hey guys.. i found disappointing news regarding Arjun tank.
this time not only pakistani news source but also Indian media conforming countless failures with Arjun tank... be it chipping in main gun and low accuracy to frequent break down in engine.:shudder

“Arjun tank still has 5 defects”

Special Correspondent

NEW DELHI: Main Battle Tank Arjun still has at least five defects, nearly 35 years after the Cabinet Committee on Political Affairs approved a project for its design and development, Defence Minister A.K. Antony told the Lok Sabha in reply to a written question.

“There has been some delay in the issue of tanks to the Army due to design modifications and removal of defects noticed during various trials by the Army,” he said.

The project cost has ballooned from the original Rs.15.50 crore to Rs.305.6 crore mainly owing to changes in qualitative requirements and cost escalation caused by inflation. “The rectification of defects and performance of tanks are being closely monitored,” the Minister said.

Defects found in Arjun tank during trial: Govt
New Delhi, May 05: The country`s indigenous main battle tank Arjun was found to have low accuracy, frequent break down of power packs and problems with its gun barrel in the recent accelerated user-cum-reliability trials, the Lok Sabha was informed on Monday.

The tanks also had problems with consistency, recorded failure of hydropenumatic suspension units and shearing of top rolls, the Minister of State for Defence Production Rao Inderjit Singh said in a written reply.

"The rectification of these defects and performance of the tanks was being closely monitored," he said.

The minister`s findings to the House came in the wake of his recent comments that Army sabotaging the tanks` final pre-induction trials could not be ruled out.

The Defence Ministry then rushed the Army Chief to Avadi Tank factory near Chennai to inspect the war machines afresh. Later, the Army said it would induct the tanks after defects were rectified.

Singh said there was some delay in the issue of tanks to the Army due to design modifications and removal of defects noticed during various trials.

He said the manufacture of the tank was being monitored by a team headed by director general of mechanised forces and a steering committee under the chairmanship of the secretary defence production and scientific advisor to the Defence Minister.


NEW DELHI: The country's indigenous main battle tank Arjun was found to have low accuracy, frequent break down of power packs and problems with its gun barrel in the recent accelerated user-cum-reliability trials, the Lok Sabha was informed on Monday.

The tanks also had problems with consistency, recorded failure of hydropenumatic suspension units and shearing of top rolls, the Minister of State for Defence Production Rao Inderjit Singh said in a written reply.

"The rectification of these defects and performance of the tanks was being closely monitored," he said.

The minister's findings to the House came in the wake of his recent comments that Army sabotaging the tanks' final pre-induction trials could not be ruled out.

The Defence Ministry then rushed the Army Chief to Avadi Tank factory near Chennai to inspect the war machines afresh. Later, the Army said it would induct the tanks after defects were rectified.

Singh said there was some delay in the issue of tanks to the Army due to design modifications and removal of defects noticed during various trials.

He said the manufacture of the tank was being monitored by a team headed by director general of mechanised forces and a steering committee under the chairmanship of the secretary defence production and scientific advisor to the Defence Minister.


New Delhi: The Defence Ministry on Monday admitted in Parliament that the indigenous main battle tank (MBT) Arjun has shown some recurring defects, besides having some faulty parts, in the just-concluded winter trials.

“Failure of power packs, lower accuracy and consistency have been noticed during the ongoing accelerated user cum reliability Trials by the Army,” Minister of State for Defence (production) Rao Inderjit Singh told the Lok Sabha.

“During the trial, the tank also witnessed shearing of top rollers and chipping of gun barrels,” Singh said.

Last year, 14 Arjun tanks had been handed over to the Indian Army for user trials, but were returned to the manufacturer, the Combat Vehicles Development Establishment, with a list of defects.

These included a deficient fire control system, inaccuracy of its guns, low speeds in tactical areas, principally in the desert, and the tank's inability to operate in temperatures over 50 degrees Celsius.

Arjun versus T-90: Army avoiding trials
Ajai Shukla / New Delhi June 17, 2008, 0:20 IST

India's Arjun tank is fighting its first battle even before it enters service with the army. The Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) and key Ministry of Defence (MoD) officials, confident that the Arjun is superior to the army's Russian T-72 and T-90 tanks, are demanding "comparative trials", where the Arjun, the T-72 and the T-90 are put through endurance and firing trials in identical conditions.

 

[kay_man]

hey guys.. i found disappointing news regarding Arjun tank.
this time not only pakistani news source but also Indian media conforming countless failures with Arjun tank... be it chipping in main gun and low accuracy to frequent break down in engine.:shudder

“Arjun tank still has 5 defects”

Special Correspondent

NEW DELHI: Main Battle Tank Arjun still has at least five defects, nearly 35 years after the Cabinet Committee on Political Affairs approved a project for its design and development, Defence Minister A.K. Antony told the Lok Sabha in reply to a written question.

“There has been some delay in the issue of tanks to the Army due to design modifications and removal of defects noticed during various trials by the Army,” he said.

The project cost has ballooned from the original Rs.15.50 crore to Rs.305.6 crore mainly owing to changes in qualitative requirements and cost escalation caused by inflation. “The rectification of defects and performance of tanks are being closely monitored,” the Minister said.

Defects found in Arjun tank during trial: Govt
New Delhi, May 05: The country`s indigenous main battle tank Arjun was found to have low accuracy, frequent break down of power packs and problems with its gun barrel in the recent accelerated user-cum-reliability trials, the Lok Sabha was informed on Monday.

The tanks also had problems with consistency, recorded failure of hydropenumatic suspension units and shearing of top rolls, the Minister of State for Defence Production Rao Inderjit Singh said in a written reply.

"The rectification of these defects and performance of the tanks was being closely monitored," he said.

The minister`s findings to the House came in the wake of his recent comments that Army sabotaging the tanks` final pre-induction trials could not be ruled out.

The Defence Ministry then rushed the Army Chief to Avadi Tank factory near Chennai to inspect the war machines afresh. Later, the Army said it would induct the tanks after defects were rectified.

Singh said there was some delay in the issue of tanks to the Army due to design modifications and removal of defects noticed during various trials.

He said the manufacture of the tank was being monitored by a team headed by director general of mechanised forces and a steering committee under the chairmanship of the secretary defence production and scientific advisor to the Defence Minister.


NEW DELHI: The country's indigenous main battle tank Arjun was found to have low accuracy, frequent break down of power packs and problems with its gun barrel in the recent accelerated user-cum-reliability trials, the Lok Sabha was informed on Monday.

The tanks also had problems with consistency, recorded failure of hydropenumatic suspension units and shearing of top rolls, the Minister of State for Defence Production Rao Inderjit Singh said in a written reply.

"The rectification of these defects and performance of the tanks was being closely monitored," he said.

The minister's findings to the House came in the wake of his recent comments that Army sabotaging the tanks' final pre-induction trials could not be ruled out.

The Defence Ministry then rushed the Army Chief to Avadi Tank factory near Chennai to inspect the war machines afresh. Later, the Army said it would induct the tanks after defects were rectified.

Singh said there was some delay in the issue of tanks to the Army due to design modifications and removal of defects noticed during various trials.

He said the manufacture of the tank was being monitored by a team headed by director general of mechanised forces and a steering committee under the chairmanship of the secretary defence production and scientific advisor to the Defence Minister.


New Delhi: The Defence Ministry on Monday admitted in Parliament that the indigenous main battle tank (MBT) Arjun has shown some recurring defects, besides having some faulty parts, in the just-concluded winter trials.

“Failure of power packs, lower accuracy and consistency have been noticed during the ongoing accelerated user cum reliability Trials by the Army,” Minister of State for Defence (production) Rao Inderjit Singh told the Lok Sabha.

“During the trial, the tank also witnessed shearing of top rollers and chipping of gun barrels,” Singh said.

Last year, 14 Arjun tanks had been handed over to the Indian Army for user trials, but were returned to the manufacturer, the Combat Vehicles Development Establishment, with a list of defects.

These included a deficient fire control system, inaccuracy of its guns, low speeds in tactical areas, principally in the desert, and the tank's inability to operate in temperatures over 50 degrees Celsius.

Arjun versus T-90: Army avoiding trials
Ajai Shukla / New Delhi June 17, 2008, 0:20 IST

India's Arjun tank is fighting its first battle even before it enters service with the army. The Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) and key Ministry of Defence (MoD) officials, confident that the Arjun is superior to the army's Russian T-72 and T-90 tanks, are demanding "comparative trials", where the Arjun, the T-72 and the T-90 are put through endurance and firing trials in identical conditions.

you have merged two different news articles

the first one came out in the year 2006....and is from am unknown source....not verified.

the second one is by ajai shukla a prominent reporter in 2007.

STOP POSTING OLD NEWS AGAIN AND AGAIN.

 

[kay_man]

Clgm

to nitesh,

the MLRS is very effective against enemy tank formations but its not that acurate. an ATGM (man portable or turret launched or dedicated missile platform like NAMICA ) has pin point accuracy in comparison.

if theres a huge tank formation defending a post and own units are at a distance theres no better weapon than an MLRS . (like the americans used in IRAQ .) you can bombard the crap out of enemy tank and infantry formations.

but if there a full fledged war where own units and tanks are in conflict with enemy counter parts then an atgm will do beter job.( without collateral damage).

and i am still adament that the LAHAT and CLGM will give the edge to the arjun . at ranges of 6+ kms an ATGM is anyday more accurate than an AP round.

 

[yess]

you have merged two different news articles

the first one came out in the year 2006....and is from am unknown source....not verified.

the second one is by ajai shukla a prominent reporter in 2007.

STOP POSTING OLD NEWS AGAIN AND AGAIN.

I have posted 5 news article and here is the date for all of them..
May 05, 2008
5 May 2008
May 05 2008
May 06, 2008
Jun 22, 2008

Admin: Text deleted. Read the rules about respect and how we expect people to respond to posts.

 

[yess]

hey guys... this time even the army admits "Arjun tank" is a "failure"!



Army officers say it is politics and not the tank's potential that is at work in the defence ministry, which last year placed orders with the Avadi Ordinance Factory to manufacture 124 Arjun tanks.

"I am happy to inform you that not only is the army satisfied with the Arjun tank's performance, but it has placed an order for 124 more such tanks," Defence Minister George Fernandes had told Parliament. "With this India has achieved the capability for indigenous manufacture of battle tanks."

Army officials, however, say no other defence agency in the world must have spent 25 years and Rs 3.5 billion on developing a tank that has failed to perform.

"We have wasted money and time in producing a tank that is just not a world class product these days," an army officer in Hyderabad says.

Insiders say the army was not "satisfied with the Arjun's performance" as Fernandes claimed, but was coerced to accept it by the DRDO.

 

[kams]

hey guys... this time even the army admits "Arjun tank" is a "failure"!



Army officers say it is politics and not the tank's potential that is at work in the defence ministry, which last year placed orders with the Avadi Ordinance Factory to manufacture 124 Arjun tanks.

"I am happy to inform you that not only is the army satisfied with the Arjun tank's performance, but it has placed an order for 124 more such tanks," Defence Minister George Fernandes had told Parliament. "With this India has achieved the capability for indigenous manufacture of battle tanks."

Army officials, however, say no other defence agency in the world must have spent 25 years and Rs 3.5 billion on developing a tank that has failed to perform.

"We have wasted money and time in producing a tank that is just not a world class product these days," an army officer in Hyderabad says.

Insiders say the army was not "satisfied with the Arjun's performance" as Fernandes claimed, but was coerced to accept it by the DRDO.

Groan...Defence Minister George Fernades eh? You guys do live in 'future'. BTW I do have to congratulate you guys on very successfull strategy...of managing to lock all India related threads..

 

[eckherl]

Sir
May be you had taken my point wrongly. I am trying to say that job of firing missiles/rockets can be done much more efficiently and with comparative minimum risk with MBLR system then with a tank. I was not trying to compare different systems.

My apologies.

No apologies needed.
I did not take your point the wrong way, and I actually agree with you. There are better weapons platforms that can achieve the same results instead of tying a tank crew to another specialty projectile and task.

I was just pointng out some of the issues with the M270 information.

 

[niteshkjain]

to nitesh,

the MLRS is very effective against enemy tank formations but its not that acurate. an ATGM (man portable or turret launched or dedicated missile platform like NAMICA ) has pin point accuracy in comparison.

if theres a huge tank formation defending a post and own units are at a distance theres no better weapon than an MLRS . (like the americans used in IRAQ .) you can bombard the crap out of enemy tank and infantry formations.

but if there a full fledged war where own units and tanks are in conflict with enemy counter parts then an atgm will do beter job.( without collateral damage).

and i am still adament that the LAHAT and CLGM will give the edge to the arjun . at ranges of 6+ kms an ATGM is anyday more accurate than an AP round.

Hey kay,

You had answered your question on your own.

Now you mentioned Namica which is a dedicated ATGM launcher. It is as maneuverable as a tank. So instead of having tank firing those ATGM, any tank formation can have dedicated ATGM launchers and these can do the job.
Although it will create a problem in terms of how many launchers to be carried upfront if they get damaged. But still it will be cheaper then building ATGM firing capability in a tank.

Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[kay_man]

Hey kay,

You had answered your question on your own.

Now you mentioned Namica which is a dedicated ATGM launcher. It is as maneuverable as a tank. So instead of having tank firing those ATGM, any tank formation can have dedicated ATGM launchers and these can do the job.
Although it will create a problem in terms of how many launchers to be carried upfront if they get damaged. But still it will be cheaper then building ATGM firing capability in a tank.

Correct me if I am wrong.

you are very correct..but wouldn't it be nice if the arjun could defend itseld by firing missiles at attacking choppers.

now-a-days greatest threat to a tank is from attack helos ,wouldnt it be nice if arjun could shoot it down from 6-8 kms away rather than depending on another platform?

you could use CLGM as a last straw..

 

[yess]

Admin: Change the way you engage others in this topic. It's starting to look like you are baiting people for a reaction.

If you have a point then make it without revving others up. Read the rules before responding to anymore posts.

1st warning issued.

 

[niteshkjain]

you are very correct..but wouldn't it be nice if the arjun could defend itseld by firing missiles at attacking choppers.

now-a-days greatest threat to a tank is from attack helos ,wouldnt it be nice if arjun could shoot it down from 6-8 kms away rather than depending on another platform?

you could use CLGM as a last straw..

You mean arjun firing SAM? cos attacking the helos means we need a SAM to be integrated with a tank not ATGM. Well, I think this needs a dedicated platform and that is why army is demanding that Akash system should mount on chassis of T55/T72.

 

[eckherl]

You mean arjun firing SAM? cos attacking the helos means we need a SAM to be integrated with a SAM not ATGM. Well, I think this needs a dedicated platform and that is why army is demanding that Akash system should mount on chassis of T55/T72.

You could also design a dual purpose Heat round for a tank that could be used for secondary armor vehicles and for helicopters if they get too close.

 

[kay_man]

hi nitesh bhai..couldnt answer you coz of pop-up blocker

You could also design a dual purpose Heat round for a tank that could be used for secondary armor vehicles and for helicopters if they get too close.

exactly my point .
it doesnt have to be SAM like.
both the lahat as well as the CLGM can be used against tanks and helos too.

however wouldnt a HEAT round require an extremely stupendously advanced fire control system?.....and the chances of miss may also be more ..
this is my guess though...i may be wrong.

firing a missile would be better wouldnt it ?

 

[kams]

You could also design a dual purpose Heat round for a tank that could be used for secondary armor vehicles and for helicopters if they get too close.

Range..Heat round would atbest be effective upto 2000m, while the Helicopters can hover 5 km from the armored formation and take them out. However a missile firing tank is no substitute for organic AA defence of an Armored regiment!