Using a dual purpose Heat round would actually require nothing more than a additional ammunition card for the ballistic computer for ballistic elevation and true aim off at tank to target ranges.The Heat round could carry a dual purpose shaped charge that could be used for either air or ground mode, air mode could be designed to detonate by the rotor wash thus giving you even more of a better chance of bringing down a helicopter in a hurry at certain ranges, direct fire is the way to go for tanks in a combat situation.
The Arjun Tank
- Thread starter Jade
- Start date
I am in agreement with you there, tankers have their hands full for what is happening at ground level as it is, shooting at a hovering target at 5 km is not the answer for a tank crew, about the time that they spend figuring out what is going on they can easily manuever out of the threat area. Heat rounds fired at 2000 meters or below offers a good counter measure for any pilot foolish enough to get that close and in most cases they more than likely will have to, we hear all the time of attack helicopters having this extended engagement range capability but the chances are that this type of scenario will in fact not be presented to a pilot due to terrian restrictions and the speed of modern combat, extended ranges that far out are just rare. And I havent even brought up the amount of ADA assetts that countries like India or Russia have at their disposal.
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Actually yes, the U.S does have and use a multi purpose Heat round just for this purpose, projectile designation is M830A1. Do not let the Russians fool you, those neat little guided missiles that their tanks enjoy shooting are mainly for helicopter defense.eckherl, do you guys train for using the heat round as anti-helo weapon? Is it a standard tactic employed in western armoured formations? (Please include Russia also in the 'Western' defination).
. My experience with training to engage helicopters presented a most difficult situation, it is alot more of a challenge than what you may think, after you identify them, track, lase and shoot, (please keep in mind that you are going to fire your battle carry round that more than likely is a KE projectile) they will start taking evasive action, my advice is to do the same thing and leave them alone and let ADA or air assetts have a go at them. Most NATO countries will most likely do the same thing.The German Army is using KEs for attacking helicopters.
The idea behind is the higher speed which makes a hit more probably and while a hit with a MPAT is nearly a secure kill I also wouldn't want to sit in a helicopter which is hit by a KE.
The impact alone should bring a pilot, who is operating close to the ground, into trouble.s And it should result at least into a mission kill.
But maybe they change this with the introduction of the programmable HE.
As Eckherl said. A helicopter hovering somewhere on the search for a prey or attacking somewhere else is a possible targets for a tank, especially when using the combined fire of a platoon.
But when he starts to maneuver it becomes much much more difficult.
If the cold war would have gone hot I think that alot of helicopters would get lost to ground fire by main guns and autocannons of the mechanized forces.
While the confusion on such a big and saturated battlefield plays in the hand of the helicopter jockeys in planning their ambushes it is also quite easy not to see the one tank or IFV which thinks the helicopter is worth a try.
The idea behind is the higher speed which makes a hit more probably and while a hit with a MPAT is nearly a secure kill I also wouldn't want to sit in a helicopter which is hit by a KE.
The impact alone should bring a pilot, who is operating close to the ground, into trouble.s And it should result at least into a mission kill.
But maybe they change this with the introduction of the programmable HE.
As Eckherl said. A helicopter hovering somewhere on the search for a prey or attacking somewhere else is a possible targets for a tank, especially when using the combined fire of a platoon.
But when he starts to maneuver it becomes much much more difficult.
If the cold war would have gone hot I think that alot of helicopters would get lost to ground fire by main guns and autocannons of the mechanized forces.
While the confusion on such a big and saturated battlefield plays in the hand of the helicopter jockeys in planning their ambushes it is also quite easy not to see the one tank or IFV which thinks the helicopter is worth a try.
niteshkjain
New Member
Awaiting Indian Army’s preparedness report card with Arjun Tank
Finally some good news for embattled tank, but sad that the politics might ruin it again.
Finally some good news for embattled tank, but sad that the politics might ruin it again.
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Aliph Ahmed
Banned Member
No more Arjuns for IA
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/No_more_Arjuns_for_Indian_Army/articleshow/3200344.cms
No surprises there.
It is the Indian Army that will be fighting in them. They are simply not satisfied and dont feel secure enough using a 3 (three) decade old tank.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/No_more_Arjuns_for_Indian_Army/articleshow/3200344.cms
No surprises there.
It is the Indian Army that will be fighting in them. They are simply not satisfied and dont feel secure enough using a 3 (three) decade old tank.
Laughable excuse, as absolutely most other countries in the world also armed with 30-years old tanks. You know, Abrams, Merkavas, Leo's... not to even speak about T-90...
Aliph Ahmed
Banned Member
Yes, but they have matured enough over time. Arjun tank will have a long way to go. A lot of studies and doctrines will be developed as per its characteristics on the ground and so on.
Personally, I belive that Arjun 2 will be a respectable tank provided India do not go the Arjun 1 way. Arjun 1 in my personal opinion is a dud and a big failure.
Does india have any plans for the next generation tank that will replace the t-90? will DRDO develop it or will the indian army look abroad for another tank? tank x already seems like a no go with the army from aliphs link http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/N...ow/3200344.cms so does DRDO have anything else? i know it's looking far into the future, but i wanted to see some opinions.
Arjun-2 might be next gen, but i doubt it would have any chance against t-95 in direct comparison - disregarding FCS and electronic ofc. These could be pretty much purchased off-shelf from a number of sellers.
"The LAHAT missile has a range of 8 km when launched from a ground platform, and up to 13 km, when deployed from high elevation."
"IAI has recently completed a successful series of test firing on the Arjun tank in India, and is negotiating local production if a planned procurement of Lahat for the entire Arjun fleet planned for the Indian armor will materialize."
http://www.defense-update.com/directory/lahat.htm
"The new missile recently passed field tests and live firing from Arjun tanks in India, and IAI has signed an agreement for local production of the missile. The Indian Army expects to take delivery of all 124 Arjun units on order, by early 2006."
http://www.defense-update.com/events/2004/summary/defexpo04armor.htm#lahat
See also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LAHAT
http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/missile_systems/anti-armor/lahat/LAHAT.html
http://www.idrw.org/2007/12/04/india_seeks_antitank_missile.html
http://www.*************.com/reports-3162
CLGM stands for Cannon Launched Guided Missile, which is exactly what LAHAT is, along with systems such as the defunct Copperhead and the russian 152mm guided artillery rounds and 125mm tank-gun launched ATGWs. Another abbreviation used is Samho: semiactive missile - homing. IMHO both CLGM and SAMHO are the locally produced version of LAHAT.
As for BVR:
visual range—(Or daytime visual range.) The distance, under daylight conditions, at which the apparent contrast between a specified type of target and its background becomes just equal to the threshold contrast of an observer; to be distinguished from the night visual range.
The visual range is a function of the atmospheric extinction coefficient, the albedo and visual angle of the target, and the observer's threshold contrast at the moment of observation. Only in the so-called meteorological range does one have a visibility figure dependent only upon the extinction coefficient. See visual-range formula; compare visibility.
Middleton, W. E. K., 1952: Vision through the Atmosphere, 104–122.
Johnson, J. C., 1954: Physical Meteorology, 79–90.
http://amsglossary.allenpress.com/glossary/search?id=visual-range1
For an aircraft BVR typically is beyond 20 nautical miles (37 km).. However, on the ground, it different. For comparison, Runway Visual Range information(RVR) is a term used in aviation meteorology to define the distance over which a pilot of an aircraft on the centreline of the runway can see the runway surface markings delineating the runway or identifying its centre line. It is used as one of the main criteria for minima on instrument approaches, as in most cases a pilot must obtain visual reference of the runway to land an aircraft. The maximum RVR reading is 2,000 metres or 6,500 feet. SO, IMHO, at ground level, 6-8km likely is BVR (you'ld need e.g. modern sighting systems, thermal imager, laser range finder etc at this distance, as the naked eye wouldn't cut it).
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niteshkjain
New Member
Chrom, just check these old news's seems like there is nothing new in not ordering more than 124 tanks. I think there is already go ahead to work on Arjun Mark II.
http://frontierindia.net/indian-mod-outlines-roadmap-for-mbt-arjun-mark-ii-in-pipeline
http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/nov/13arjun1.htm
Yes, but if leaked info about Arjun-2 is true, it offers nothing revolutionary. Just a tank on current Leo-2/ Chally level. Most likely, this is not enough to compete with newly designed russian tank.
niteshkjain
New Member
Are you referring to black eagle (T-95)? If that is the case then what is the possibility of a joint project like BrahMos or PAK-FA.
Yes. And Indian MOD already issued a call for all countries to prepare for next-gen tank joint development tender.
niteshkjain
New Member
looks like we will se more twists and turns in Arjun saga, it is not going to end soon.
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2008/07/exclusive-faced-with-stubborn-army-drdo.html
MONDAY, JULY 07, 2008
Exclusive: Faced with stubborn Army, DRDO hunts for third party quality inspector for Arjun MBT
It's been a sombre week for the Arjun main battle tank. Last week, the Army's DG Mechanised Forces Lt Gen Dalip Bharadwaj said that the Army would place no further orders beyond the 124 already indented for with the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) at Avadi. That alone has been the cherry on top for a morbid quarter for the tank programme. The Army is still stubbornly resistant to comparative trials of the Arjun with the T-90 and T-72. And earlier this year, the tank's gearbox failed during accelerated usage cum reliability trials at Pokhran. It now appears that the DRDO has lost faith in the Army as well.
According to my sources at Avadi, the CVRDE is now scouting for a "third party quality assurance agency" to undertake the inspection and quality assurance of the manufacture of the running gear, hydro-pneumatic suspension and track adjuster, manufactured by BEML, Kirloskar Pneumatic Company (KPC) Limited and KGF respectively.
Currently, CVRDE is the "inspecting authority" of all tanks produced by HVF. But it appears convinced that an outside certificate of approval is now necessary as a last ditch effort to persuade an obstinate Army. The agency will be identified by next month following a tender process -- the agency can be Indian or foreign.
The uproar over Arjun continues limitlessly, but one thing is clear. There is still no clear logic from the Army about why it refuses to conduct the promised comparative trials of the Arjun with the two Russian types. Enough has been said about the rationale, so I won't say more, though the clamour has gotten louder, and it's making the Army (or at least some of its generals) look like it's/they've got something to hide.
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2008/07/exclusive-faced-with-stubborn-army-drdo.html
MONDAY, JULY 07, 2008
Exclusive: Faced with stubborn Army, DRDO hunts for third party quality inspector for Arjun MBT
It's been a sombre week for the Arjun main battle tank. Last week, the Army's DG Mechanised Forces Lt Gen Dalip Bharadwaj said that the Army would place no further orders beyond the 124 already indented for with the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) at Avadi. That alone has been the cherry on top for a morbid quarter for the tank programme. The Army is still stubbornly resistant to comparative trials of the Arjun with the T-90 and T-72. And earlier this year, the tank's gearbox failed during accelerated usage cum reliability trials at Pokhran. It now appears that the DRDO has lost faith in the Army as well.
According to my sources at Avadi, the CVRDE is now scouting for a "third party quality assurance agency" to undertake the inspection and quality assurance of the manufacture of the running gear, hydro-pneumatic suspension and track adjuster, manufactured by BEML, Kirloskar Pneumatic Company (KPC) Limited and KGF respectively.
Currently, CVRDE is the "inspecting authority" of all tanks produced by HVF. But it appears convinced that an outside certificate of approval is now necessary as a last ditch effort to persuade an obstinate Army. The agency will be identified by next month following a tender process -- the agency can be Indian or foreign.
The uproar over Arjun continues limitlessly, but one thing is clear. There is still no clear logic from the Army about why it refuses to conduct the promised comparative trials of the Arjun with the two Russian types. Enough has been said about the rationale, so I won't say more, though the clamour has gotten louder, and it's making the Army (or at least some of its generals) look like it's/they've got something to hide.
i dont know what the fuss is all about with the black eagle.
its just russias attempt to build a western style mbt of the 60 ton class.
it will be very good but theres nothing revolutioary about it.
one might argue that it will sport a 152mm main gun. but that will happen later on.initially it will have only a 125mm smoothbore like rest of the russian tanks.
and by the time it does have a 152mm gun all other tanks in the world will also be sporting bigger guns.
mind you the germans are already testing with 140mm gun for leo series.
its the same story with the t-95. although tecnologically its a step ahead but its still a concept. by the time it goes in full production there will be more formidable tanks around .
The Black Eagle that was built weighed ~50 tons. It was meant to have a robotic turret, with the crew sitting inside of armor capsules in the hull. This is not just an attempt to build a western tank, but a whole new concept of armored vehicles. The T-95, which has similar features, would similarly be a new generation of MBT. Of course there is one important if to consider. If the completed project (due to be shown this year) is all it was built up to be.