The Arjun Tank

Chrom

New Member
Not a good idea to compare BAE Land Systems with DODO. :D
Give that order to BAE - but please, do not forget to include 5-6 BILLIONS $$ with that order, and British + USA governments approval.

Do not compare BAE with DRDO - BAE (as part of industrial country) have very developed industry at its disposal ( 500-600 billions $$ worth to develop) and thousands other connected firms and scientific institutes around the world - friendly to BAE but not-so-friendly to DRDO (i dont know how much money).
 

Chrom

New Member
There are plenty of private defence contractors from different countries that would offer assistance to DRDO and there is nothing wrong with that. Isn`t it also funny that India really doesn`t seem too interested in any type of Russian APS systems, rumor is, look at a company from Israel to offer assistance to DRDO.;)
Your will end up with sub-par product anyway, plus heavily depended on foreign import. Arjun is prime example. Generally state-of-the-art tank, but plagued with some defects, expensive, and with most vital components imported.

Some vital things are just not sold on open market, and reserved for close allies use. New thermals - not. New APFSDS - not, etc.
 

otester

New Member
Your will end up with sub-par product anyway, plus heavily depended on foreign import. Arjun is prime example. Generally state-of-the-art tank, but plagued with some defects, expensive, and with most vital components imported.

Some vital things are just not sold on open market, and reserved for close allies use. New thermals - not. New APFSDS - not, etc.
Do you think Russia would export the AT-15?
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Your will end up with sub-par product anyway, plus heavily depended on foreign import. Arjun is prime example. Generally state-of-the-art tank, but plagued with some defects, expensive, and with most vital components imported.

Some vital things are just not sold on open market, and reserved for close allies use. New thermals - not. New APFSDS - not, etc.
There is the issue most important at hand, countries are hesitant to give out latest generation tank ammunition and skimp on what they give in terms of latest armor protection values. All the other gizmos and gadget technology can be bought for a price when it comes to certain countries. Quality control issues/standards in-regards to DRDO have improved. It will be most interesting to see what type of package that India recieves when they sign on to the new TI sight package from one would assume the company Thales.
 

niteshkjain

New Member
Bad news for Arjun

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ank_during_trial_Govt/articleshow/3012911.cms

Defects found in Arjun tank during trial: Govt
5 May 2008, 2126 hrs IST,PTI

NEW DELHI: The country's indigenous main battle tank Arjun was found to have low accuracy, frequent break down of power packs and problems with its gun barrel in the recent accelerated user-cum-reliability trials, the Lok Sabha was informed on Monday.

The tanks also had problems with consistency, recorded failure of hydropenumatic suspension units and shearing of top rolls, the Minister of State for Defence Production Rao Inderjit Singh said in a written reply.

"The rectification of these defects and performance of the tanks was being closely monitored," he said.

The minister's findings to the House came in the wake of his recent comments that Army sabotaging the tanks' final pre-induction trials could not be ruled out.

The Defence Ministry then rushed the Army Chief to Avadi Tank factory near Chennai to inspect the war machines afresh. Later, the Army said it would induct the tanks after defects were rectified.

Singh said there was some delay in the issue of tanks to the Army due to design modifications and removal of defects noticed during various trials.

He said the manufacture of the tank was being monitored by a team headed by director general of mechanised forces and a steering committee under the chairmanship of the secretary defence production and scientific advisor to the Defence Minister.
 

Titanium

New Member
Five ‘defects’ in Arjun tanks listed

Five ‘defects’ in Arjun tanks listed

New Delhi, May 5: The government has listed five "defects" noticed in the Arjun tanks during user trials conducted by the Army. These are "failure of power packs, low accuracy and consistency, failure of hydropneumatic suspension units, shearing of top rollers, and chipping of gun barrels".

Thirty-four years after its launch, the Arjun Main Battle Tank project of the Defence Research and Development Organisation has proved to be a failure with the Army telling a parliamentary committee last month that "the tanks have performed very poorly" in trials conducted last winter.

In the standing committee on defence report submitted to Parliament last month, the Army had told the committee, "We (Army) have just carried out the trial in winter. The tanks have performed very poorly. There have been four engine failures so far ... There has been a problem. The defence minister has been apprised by the (Army) chief ... So, a lot of improvements have to be done before the Army will be satisfied on the Arjun tank."

The parliamentary standing committee on defence then observed, "The committee however (is) startled to hear now from a representative of the Army that the Arjun tanks have performed very poorly."
 

Chrom

New Member
Do you think Russia would export the AT-15?
If it is finished - sooner or later it will be exported. But possible with several years delay. Or in less advanced package.

P.S. There are rumors the project is reworked. Original concept of unified missiles family for 15 and 115 km proved to be less than economically viable.
 

n21

New Member
There is the issue most important at hand, countries are hesitant to give out latest generation tank ammunition and skimp on what .....
Eckherl,
Had this question for you.
The shelf life of Arjun's suspension has been quoted around 2000km.
Would you have any idea about how this compare with suspension of other tanks?
Ofcourse it depends on the terrian they operate,however a generalised comparision should be suficient to satisfy my curiousity.
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Eckherl,
Had this question for you.
The shelf life of Arjun's suspension has been quoted around 2000km.
Would you have any idea about how this compare with suspension of other tanks?
Ofcourse it depends on the terrian they operate,however a generalised comparision should be suficient to satisfy my curiousity.
That is about right for components such as final drives, roadwheel hubs, idler wheel arms and suspension impact dampening components along with track components. The biggest challenge for service life is the seals needed on all components mentioned minus the track. Desert environments will eat up seals in a rather quick fashion versus operating in a European type environment.
 

IrishHitman

New Member
One has to compare the Arjun with it's likely enemies.

So, how does the Arjun shape up against the Chinese T55 clones?
Pretty well, I'd imagine, but don't the Chinese have their own new tank design?
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
One has to compare the Arjun with it's likely enemies.

So, how does the Arjun shape up against the Chinese T55 clones?
Pretty well, I'd imagine, but don't the Chinese have their own new tank design?
China has come along way from the days of the Type 59 and Type 69 tanks, they currently operate models with the designations of Type 98 and 99. Very capable MBT`s. Granted they still use a large amount of older models but they are being replaced or upgraded.
 
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IrishHitman

New Member
China has come along way from the days of the Type 59 and Type 69 tanks, they currently operate models with the designations of Type 98 and 99. Very capable MBT`s. Granted they still use a large amount of older models but the are being replaced or upgraded.
I thought China was only buying/making about 500 of the new 98/99s and keeping it's aging fleet? Isn't the 99 particularly expensive?
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I thought China was only buying/making about 500 of the new 98/99s and keeping it's aging fleet? Isn't the 99 particularly expensive?
I do not see the rationale for that, their economy will support as many as they want, plus we could factor in other models such as Type 85 and 96`s which with appropiate upgrades will be a worthy adversary. Type 59 and 69 more than likely will play a reserve role. PLA is in the process of conducting a major upgrade in their war doctrine, as technology becomes available they will put it to good use.
 

Chrom

New Member
I do not see the rationale for that, their economy will support as many as they want, plus we could factor in other models such as Type 85 and 96`s which with appropiate upgrades will be a worthy adversary. Type 59 and 69 more than likely will play a reserve role. PLA is in the process of conducting a major upgrade in their war doctrine, as technology becomes available they will put it to good use.
I think the question in China right now is not the money, but rather experienced & educated workers. Every worker making T-99 do not work in some probably much more important project - aircraft, cosmic, or plain civilian industry. They could build more T-99 of course, but the real cost for economic would be disproportional high.

And yes, unless India plans going in war with China next year - Arjun is better be good against T-99 (even next tank) hordes , and not some old chunky T-55.
 

IrishHitman

New Member
I think the question in China right now is not the money, but rather experienced & educated workers. Every worker making T-99 do not work in some probably much more important project - aircraft, cosmic, or plain civilian industry. They could build more T-99 of course, but the real cost for economic would be disproportional high.

And yes, unless India plans going in war with China next year - Arjun is better be good against T-99 (even next tank) hordes , and not some old chunky T-55.
Does anyone have a rundown of capability comparisons?
 

niteshkjain

New Member
Guys seems like its game over for Arjun

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2008/20080511/main5.htm

Arjun loses battle to Russian tanks
Trials put on hold as Army opts for T-90 tanks
Ajay Banerjee
Tribune News Service


New Delhi, May 10
The Indian Army has made up its mind that it will not accept more Arjun tanks and opted to add more Russian T-90 tanks to its armoured corps. A total of 347 more such tanks will be purchased. Notably, 223 of these tanks will be assembled in India under a transfer-of-technology arrangement offered by Russia while 124 tanks will be supplied in “battle-ready condition”.

The Russian tank is cheaper by Rs 6-8 crore per piece and lighter by a few tonnes. Besides, it offers transfer of latest technology to India. The Army has put the further induction of Arjun tanks in the cold storage. Even the next stage of the testing that was to be conducted this summer has been put off, sources in the ministry of defence confirmed.

The sources said the Army had conveyed that it was not averse to carrying out more tests on Arjun, but the glitches had to be removed. So far, the Army had been handed over 14 tanks that were tested extensively, the latest being during last winter.

This come close on the heels of the deposition of the Army before the Parliamentary standing committee that Arjun, during the winter trials in Rajasthan, was miles away from meeting the requirements that are called the general staff qualitative requirements (GSQRs) in defence parlance. The committee tabled its report in Parliament.

The Defence Research and Development Organisation has not said enough words, but often it grumbles that the Army changes the GSQRs far too often. Arjun’s developers also talk of having open test between Arjun and T-90 tanks to have a comparative analysis before debunking an option.

Meanwhile, the Russian T-90 tanks will be fitted with the Russian-origin Invar missile, modified and indigenously made now by Bharat Dynamics Limited (BDL) under the transfer-of-technology agreement. It is huge technology leap, as 223 of the tanks will come in semi-knocked down (SKD) kits or completely knocked down (CKD) kits as part of the process towards building indigenous capability.

The first lot of T-90 was inducted in 2004 and is known by its Indianised name “Bhishma”. The same will be built at the heavy vehicles factory at Avadi in Tamil Nadu.

Though Arjun was now working on an up-rated German engine, the Army feels even if Arjun matches other international level tanks, it costs much more than the others.

After the Army representative slammed Arjun, standing committee chairman Balasaheb Vikhe Patil as well as the defence secretary and several other members had agreed that the committee would formulate a clear policy on India’s tank of the future.

Reports have been appearing in the media that the standing committee also thought that the Army was biased against Arjun tank and was in favour of continuing to use the Russian T-72 and T-90 tanks.

I feel army should continue supporting the program in-spite of problems because it will help indian industry.
 

IrishHitman

New Member
The Indians always have been fans of the Russian armour, I suppose that tradition won over this time..

It's probably cheaper too..
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Old news. I've heard some time ago that India used the option for additional tanks in the original T-90 contract for 347 more tanks.
 

niteshkjain

New Member
Hey see this seems like Arjun is going to see daylight:)

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htarm/articles/20080513.aspx

Arjun Back From The Dead

May 13, 2008: Senior members of the Indian Defense Ministry (including the minister himself) are pushing for mass production of the Indian designed Arjun battle tank. Several dozen Arjun's entered limited service in 2002, after over two decades of development. The Arjun still had serious performance and reliability problems. Two years ago, India decided to relegate the Arjun to training duties, rather than put it into mass production. The 35 Arjuns already built proved too unreliable for combat. But for training purposes, they were adequate.


The government was reluctant to give up on the Arjun, as so many politicians had praised the project as a military and nationalistic success. But every time a prototype was put to the test, the results were disappointing. As so often happened with other weapons projects, the Arjun is having problems with its electronics. In the last round of tests, it was the fire control system. But Arjun has also had problems with its engine, and that fact that its size and weight prevents it from being used with current tank transporters. The Defense Ministry could not bring itself to admit defeat, so all attempts to just cancel Arjun failed. Until now.



Eight years ago, the situation became critical, because the army needed a new generation of tanks and the Arjun wasn't ready. So the army ordered 310 T-90 tanks from Russia, mainly to check them out. This was the beginning of the end for Arjun, that was supposed to be the successor to the Russian T-72, long the first line Indian tank. The Defense Ministry still insisted that Arjun production would go forward. But the government engineers could not make Arjun work. There were also problems with using manufacturing technology, imported from Russia, to build components for Indian made T-72s, to build similar components for Arjun. About two thirds of the components in the Arjun and T-72 were interchangeable. But the technology transfer agreements with Russia only allowed India to manufacture these components for T-72s, not another tank design. The lawyers screwed up on this one, and Indian manufacturers were not able to design and build replacement parts that India could afford. The Arjun was going to cost more than imported T-90s.



Six years ago, desperate Ministry of Defense officials made plans to mount the turrets from the Arjuns on T-72 chassis, overcoming many of the construction problems. The Arjun chassis would then be used for a new Bhim self-propelled 155mm howitzers, with the South African Denel T-6 turret. The T-72 with the Arjun turret would be called Tank EX. The Denel turret proved to be too expensive, and too many components in the Arjun turret were still having problems, so this scheme was abandoned as well. At that point, the army began to refurbish some of its 1,700 T-72s, equipping 200 of them with additional armor (ERA), a new engine and upgraded electronics. The army began to look on the T-90 as its next generation tank, but it took four years for the Defense Ministry, and politicians, to admit that Arjun would not work.



Many of the problems with Arjun had to do with nothing more than government ineptitude. The Ministry of Defense was more interested in putting out press releases, about how India was becoming self-sufficient in tanks, than in attending to the technical details needed to make this happen. The Ministry of Defense crowd has done this sort of thing many times. Moreover, if it isn't incompetence screwing things up, then it's corruption. Cleaning up the Ministry of Defense, and all the politicians that get involved with it, is, so far, a problem without a solution.



In the last two years, India has adopted the Russian T-90 as their new tank. But work continued on the Arjun, and another 124 were ordered. Recent problems with Russian suppliers, and growing confidence among military equipment manufacturers, has given government ministers an opportunity to once more tout the Arjun as a shining example of Indian accomplishment in the defense sector.
 
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