The Arjun Tank
- Thread starter Jade
- Start date
Some of the more additional upgrades will pertain to the FCS including TI sights, India has started the process for commercial companies world wide that are out there to start placing bids for India`s needs.
niteshkjain
New Member
http://www.zeenews.com/articles.asp?aid=439812
No plan to abandon Arjun project: Centre
New Delhi, April 29: Amid a raging controversy over the possibility of an internal "sabotage" during the recent trials of indigenously developed main battle tank Arjun, the Centre on Tuesday said all shortcomings in the armament are being removed and there was no question of abandoning the project.
"Whatever shortcomings were there, they are being removed," Minister of State for Defence Shri M M Pallam Raju told reporters here. He said the government did not have any proposal to abandon the project.
Last week Minister of State for Defence Production Rao Inderjit Singh had hinted about the "possibility of sabotage" during winter trials of Arjun tanks that prompted Army chief General Deepak Kapoor and other top officials to rush to the Avadi Tank Factory near Chennai for fresh inspections.
Singh had said that the possibility of sabotage should be examined. He said though the German engines in the tanks were used for over 15 years, it should be examined how they broke down during the winter trials.
Reacting to Singh's observation, the army had said there was no major snag in the tank and it would go ahead with the induction. "The very fact that we have placed orders for 124 Arjun tanks means that army wants to induct them," a senior army officer had said.
Commenting on the issue, Defence Minister A K Antony yesterday said army and DRDO would conduct a joint inspection of the tank "very soon".
Eight years after placing an order for 124 tanks with the ordinance factory board, the army told the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Defence recently that the tanks had "fared very badly". Army officers told the committee the tanks were miles away from meeting the force's requirement and there was need for several improvements before they could be declared battle-worthy.
Bureau Report
No plan to abandon Arjun project: Centre
New Delhi, April 29: Amid a raging controversy over the possibility of an internal "sabotage" during the recent trials of indigenously developed main battle tank Arjun, the Centre on Tuesday said all shortcomings in the armament are being removed and there was no question of abandoning the project.
"Whatever shortcomings were there, they are being removed," Minister of State for Defence Shri M M Pallam Raju told reporters here. He said the government did not have any proposal to abandon the project.
Last week Minister of State for Defence Production Rao Inderjit Singh had hinted about the "possibility of sabotage" during winter trials of Arjun tanks that prompted Army chief General Deepak Kapoor and other top officials to rush to the Avadi Tank Factory near Chennai for fresh inspections.
Singh had said that the possibility of sabotage should be examined. He said though the German engines in the tanks were used for over 15 years, it should be examined how they broke down during the winter trials.
Reacting to Singh's observation, the army had said there was no major snag in the tank and it would go ahead with the induction. "The very fact that we have placed orders for 124 Arjun tanks means that army wants to induct them," a senior army officer had said.
Commenting on the issue, Defence Minister A K Antony yesterday said army and DRDO would conduct a joint inspection of the tank "very soon".
Eight years after placing an order for 124 tanks with the ordinance factory board, the army told the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Defence recently that the tanks had "fared very badly". Army officers told the committee the tanks were miles away from meeting the force's requirement and there was need for several improvements before they could be declared battle-worthy.
Bureau Report
Well, at least army gave out some numbers 
So we know what some (unknown) time ago T-90 costs ~ 2.5-3m $ for Indian army, and Arjun - ~6-7m $. Given that difference (and also projected difference in maintainance cost) - it is clear why Indian army high command is not very happy about Arjun instead of T-90.
On the other hand, i also can see why tank crew might want Arjun for service - after all, it is not they who pay these moneys.
So we know what some (unknown) time ago T-90 costs ~ 2.5-3m $ for Indian army, and Arjun - ~6-7m $. Given that difference (and also projected difference in maintainance cost) - it is clear why Indian army high command is not very happy about Arjun instead of T-90. On the other hand, i also can see why tank crew might want Arjun for service - after all, it is not they who pay these moneys.
yea i read it too,
it makes sence if u think about it.india is one of the largest importer of arms as of now , it is in favour of external intrests tht indigenous efforts towards self reliance are thwarted...so........................................
Aliph Ahmed
Banned Member
Are you saying that influence of external sources is greater then the influence of internal sources ?
Personally speaking, I dont think any other country would have had the patience to go through with what the Indian Army went through vis a vis Arjun Tank.
Which gives me reason to belive that internal sources weild more influence then external sources based on the fact that Arjun has been around for over 20 years.
:niteshkjain
New Member
Mr. Aliph please align your thinking with some logic, when you say Indian army has lot of patience to go through the Arjun Saga. Its not only fault of DRDO the changing specs where the main reasons, also the project mismanagement of DRDO. So the point is that if army agrees like air-force has done with SU-30, eurofighter does with treanches the problem can be sorted out like induct Arjun in decent numbers my be one regiment as version1 or arjun MK1 and then start sorting out the problems. Even they are happy with some of the technologies like kanchan armour so the project is not a total failure. Even israelis and americans have done so many modifications with there tanks. Meanwhile keep inducting T-90's in numbers. And may be start a PAK-FA like project either with russians or israel. A little bit of compromise can give the program a much needed boost.
Aliph Ahmed
Banned Member
I was responding to KayMan who was of opinion that external sources wield more influence and therefore, they want Arjun tank project thwarted.
I was simply pointing out to KayMan that in my personal opinion, Internal Sources within India exert more influence and this is why Arjun Tank project is still not dead even after 20+ years despite experiencing a long, miserable, dreadfull and sorry history of hiccups.
Not sure, why would you feel the need to justify ?
As for the fate of Arjun, I have zero faith in it ever crossing the number reaching 100 units deployed simultaneously at any one given time everr, but that is my opinion which is I suppose quite opposite of yours.
Only the time will tell.
niteshkjain
New Member
My point is not to hurt you I am extremely sorry if I did. Your point is correct that internal forces has kept the project alive but my point is that why so many changes in specs done in between so every-time the thing has to start from scratch. Even DRDO is responsible for excepting the changes in specs. But end of the day there is a machine that has come. The point over quality is debatable. My point is in-spite of keep testing the product create a separate budget for 124 tanks, try to improve over it by using them. And make army a stakeholder for new versions. Then even they will be responsible for design.
aliph is just banging on the last bit of news tht has been in the papers .
i did not say THERE IS a sabotage , im merely following the new tht there MAY be or MAY NOT be sabotage.................but the POSIBILITY IS UNDENYABLE.
in india the army does not select the equipment, it merely presents a GSRQ to the ministry of defence and the MoD decides wht the army should be given.
the MoD is obviously influenced by external defence companies and defence ties.
and there is also CORRUPTION.
1600 tanks is a huge order, to accomplish this BUSSINESS DEAL ppl can do a lot of manipulation of equipment..
the commision must be huge ,..
MoD should have looked at what the tank would be up against and what abilities it would need and go about designing a tank like that, with the Arjun they clearly haven't, probably mostly due to corruption.
Specs needed:
-120mm gun with MRS (Rheinmetall L\55?).
-Ammunition in line with M829A1 or better.
-Able to see (good FLIR) & hit moving targets at 4km (ballistics computer/gun quality).
-75km/h speed.
-Turret (front): 800mm (CE/KE) (excluding (N)ERA).
-Glacis/Hull (front): 800mm (CE/KE) (excluding (N)ERA).
-APS system (inc. laser warning system).
Specs needed:
-120mm gun with MRS (Rheinmetall L\55?).
-Ammunition in line with M829A1 or better.
-Able to see (good FLIR) & hit moving targets at 4km (ballistics computer/gun quality).
-75km/h speed.
-Turret (front): 800mm (CE/KE) (excluding (N)ERA).
-Glacis/Hull (front): 800mm (CE/KE) (excluding (N)ERA).
-APS system (inc. laser warning system).
The problem is, DRDO cant make any specs in time, and MoD cant define future tech reqs good enough. MoD usually issue state-of-the-art requirements - but by the time tanks is ready - it is already hopelessly outclassed.
As result, army have the choice - either buy sub-par tank (reliability, cost or technological) - or issue new requirements....
Say, MoD issued your requirements... in 8-10 years, when tank is ready - foreign sellers will offer turret-less tanks with 135-155 mm guns, with 2x as much armor, with 2-3 crews, with much more capable APS, self-guided gun shells able to hit up to 15 km away...
Try to order DRDO to develop all that right now - and you'll see nothing at all. Fancy faces...
Well ok, if you're taking about 10 years into account then...
Specs needed:
-High-pressure capable 140mm gun with MRS.
-Ammunition in line with M829A3 or better.
-Turretless.
-Autoloader capable of handling long APFSDS shells.
-Able to see (good FLIR) & hit moving targets at 5km (ballistics computer/gun quality).
-70km/h speed.
-Turret (front): 1000mm (CE/KE) (excluding (N)ERA).
-Glacis/Hull (front): 1000mm (CE/KE) (excluding (N)ERA).
-APS system (inc. laser warning system).
1000mm of armour is plenty, ERA should be added on top giving it around ~1400mm.
Look how old the T-72 is and how far the Russians have managed to keep it in as a contender, the new specs I have produced should cover for at least another 20 years after the 10 year R&D wait.
Really tank destroyers like the AT-15 are the best way to go from now on, cheap and deadly.
Give that order to DRDO, spend 200 mils $$ - you'll receive nothing (ZERO) output in 10 years. In 10 years, DRDO will form a join venture with already named German, Russian, Israel firms... buy/locally adopt they hardware... and in 20 years we will see new Arjun-XM with these specs. Arjun, which could be bought 10 years earlier from Russia or Germany. Arjun, 2 times as expensive or less capable as foreign examples, with 60%+ imported components.
So if I gave that order to BAE Land Systems...?
Aliph Ahmed
Banned Member
Not a good idea to compare BAE Land Systems with DODO.
Aha now I get the picture.Not a good idea to compare BAE Land Systems with DODO.
I'm pretty sure though the Indian army could make a deal with Britain to buy its Challenger 1 fleet, which are in storage IIRC due to arms limitations (government originally was going to have the ~400 C2's and previous C1's together).
C1's gun can be changed for a Rheinmetall L\44 if necessary.
There are plenty of private defence contractors from different countries that would offer assistance to DRDO and there is nothing wrong with that. Isn`t it also funny that India really doesn`t seem too interested in any type of Russian APS systems, rumor is, look at a company from Israel to offer assistance to DRDO.
Yeh, Iron Fist certainly beats Arena APS on the collateral damage side of things.There are plenty of private defence contractors from different countries that would offer assistance to DRDO and there is nothing wrong with that. Isn`t it also funny that India really doesn`t seem too interested in any type of Russian APS systems, rumor is, look at a company from Israel to offer assistance to DRDO.