Arms race: Greece & Turkey
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We can't have everything but as already, and correctly according to Greek media, fantasma has posted here some 30 new F-16's will replace the A-7's, i think the A-7H are already out of service and the A-7E's are the ones to be replaced.
The 80 fighters after 2015 is a prospect that emerged in the recent counsils about the future of HAF. That program also belongs in the next defence planning which will cover the years after 2012. With a new budget of course.
Don't forget that most of those programs, especially the new fighters (60), are discussed since 2002 and in 2004 we were just one step before buying the Eurofighters, after that came a long time stability in most of the programs, not only for HAF but also for the Army and the Navy as well.
So according to the budget the numbers are close to reality because we are talking for a gap in deals of about 8 years so the 10 billions is not such a fictionary number if we think that the 5 blns would have been used before 4 years
The 80 fighters after 2015 is a prospect that emerged in the recent counsils about the future of HAF. That program also belongs in the next defence planning which will cover the years after 2012. With a new budget of course.
Don't forget that most of those programs, especially the new fighters (60), are discussed since 2002 and in 2004 we were just one step before buying the Eurofighters, after that came a long time stability in most of the programs, not only for HAF but also for the Army and the Navy as well.
So according to the budget the numbers are close to reality because we are talking for a gap in deals of about 8 years so the 10 billions is not such a fictionary number if we think that the 5 blns would have been used before 4 years
Yust a few toughts... Im not about to read this 51 pages but Im courius
1. There has being some ews (from Macedonian sources) that Greece will go with Rafale (pesonaly belive its batter fighter than Typhoon) to repay for the France for not sideing with Macedonia about its name conflict and giving them right to join NATO
2. Greece and Russia has excellent military coorperation and unlie any other NATO country so while Turky is about to get 100 F-35 Greece response can not be another batch of F-16 coz no matter its update will not stand a chance against F-35, Meteor combo so what are chances that Greece can chose to go with Russian PAK-FA air superiority program that is unlike F-35 optimized for air-superiority role ... (I have read somethere that Greece is interested in S-400 system that will have excellent detection/tracking range against stealth targets specialy if integrated with NEBO SVU VHF AESA radar althrow Grave Stone should do the trick also ... so effectinly neutralizing stelath of F-35)
1. There has being some ews (from Macedonian sources) that Greece will go with Rafale (pesonaly belive its batter fighter than Typhoon) to repay for the France for not sideing with Macedonia about its name conflict and giving them right to join NATO
2. Greece and Russia has excellent military coorperation and unlie any other NATO country so while Turky is about to get 100 F-35 Greece response can not be another batch of F-16 coz no matter its update will not stand a chance against F-35, Meteor combo so what are chances that Greece can chose to go with Russian PAK-FA air superiority program that is unlike F-35 optimized for air-superiority role ... (I have read somethere that Greece is interested in S-400 system that will have excellent detection/tracking range against stealth targets specialy if integrated with NEBO SVU VHF AESA radar althrow Grave Stone should do the trick also ... so effectinly neutralizing stelath of F-35)
Your thoughts are very logical.
Although there is no doubt about the excellent relations between Russia and Greece, which i hope to get even better, any Sukhoi and generally any Russian candidate in the new fighter program is an outsider, it would be a shock for everyone if Greece would buy Russian fighters and to tell you the truth i don't expect such a deal to come true in the recent future maybe after 2015 something better will happen.
On the other hand we don't know what the Greek and the Russian side will discuss, along with the Energy treaties, the coming Tuesday during Mr Karamanlis visit in Russia, also the Greek sides recent order for the BMP-3's leaves a somekind misty path in Russian aircrafts deal but a much clearer path on the S-400 which saw a great deal of publicity from Greek media as the next SAM a few months ago.
Also as you said there are political games behind the new fighter program and generally behind every order from the Greek side, new fighter, new frigate, new trainer etc we are talking about some billions of Euros, which will play a great deal in every decision and Greece doesn't have only French support in it's positions about certain matters.
Also i think you must be refering in FYROM sources, because i didn't see any such refers in the Macedonian news agency www.mpa.gr , and to tell you the truth i didn't see any such refers in media from Greek Macedonia
Although there is no doubt about the excellent relations between Russia and Greece, which i hope to get even better, any Sukhoi and generally any Russian candidate in the new fighter program is an outsider, it would be a shock for everyone if Greece would buy Russian fighters and to tell you the truth i don't expect such a deal to come true in the recent future maybe after 2015 something better will happen
.On the other hand we don't know what the Greek and the Russian side will discuss, along with the Energy treaties, the coming Tuesday during Mr Karamanlis visit in Russia, also the Greek sides recent order for the BMP-3's leaves a somekind misty path in Russian aircrafts deal but a much clearer path on the S-400 which saw a great deal of publicity from Greek media as the next SAM a few months ago.
Also as you said there are political games behind the new fighter program and generally behind every order from the Greek side, new fighter, new frigate, new trainer etc we are talking about some billions of Euros, which will play a great deal in every decision and Greece doesn't have only French support in it's positions about certain matters.
Also i think you must be refering in FYROM sources, because i didn't see any such refers in the Macedonian news agency www.mpa.gr , and to tell you the truth i didn't see any such refers in media from Greek Macedonia
Atilla [TR]
New Member
If Greece gets the PAK-FA Turkey will surely try to get the F-22, Turkey has a mandate to have better equipment then her neighbors. Also what makes you think that the F-35 will be detected by the S-400? Do you have any first hand accounts? Also remember Turkey's F-35 is said to have the same stealth levels as the American ones.
BLACK SHIP
New Member
There is no chance for any front line Russian Fighter to enter HAF service ever . The S-400 system has capabilities but until is thoroughly tested a lot remains to be seen.As far as the F35 having the same capabilities there are lot of scepticism from various Air Forces which ordered it that it will not.As far as Turkey's mandate to have better equipment from the neighboring countries it only leads to an arms race since the parties concerned will always take measures to counter that so depriving badly needed funds and slowing economic growth for both sides .Atilla [TR];140555 said:
You dont know mutch about military equipment do you? Radar Irbis-E (export version) from Su-35-1 can see F-35 from 90km distance from most stealth optimised angle (meaning front and in line) .. any other angle or atitude will only increase its detection range. Have you ever heard about sensor fusion?Atilla [TR];140555 said:
S-400 will have no problem detecting it at extremly long ranges cozz F-35 unlike F-22 is not designed to penetrate S-300/400 network and its stealth is not enough to pass undetected by S-300/400 radar.Its kinematic perfomance is MUTCH worse than that of the F-22 its even worse than any other Gripen/Rafale/Typhoon/Su-30/35/MIG-35 ... and with its max Mach 1.6 dash speed its really a pigeon in sky than a real fighter ( its strike fighter to be precise) .. you should learn a bit about its potentials and what it was designed for!
F-35 stealth is many times worse than that of the F-22 and is optimised in centimeter and decimeter area .. what about any other area Russian cover for instance 2 meter VHF AESA NEBO SVU witch can easily be integrated with S-400 system not to mention S-400 main radar Grave Stone is suffician to down any F-35 trying to do any foolish thing.
Atilla [TR]
New Member
I am well aware of my military equipment, are you are you asking yourself that Q? Also if Greece does get a heavyweight fighter any Su 27 series fighters, i wonder what Turkey would get? What do you guys think. Turkey does need a heavyweight fighter they just do not know it, they need to replace the F-4 someday:roll ....
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Atilla [TR]
New Member
F-22 is not Turkey's only option there is the Eurofighter, which i would like to see more then the F-22. Also Turkey has devolped RCS absorbing paint which I am not too sure but if they put on top of the Eurofighter would help lower it's RCS. But for sure Turkey would not just let Greece buy SU-27's and not buy something themselves that would be equal to the SU-27. Also tehy can start the development of either PAK FA or the next Eurofighter latter seems more possible.
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Any sources ?
Atilla [TR]
New Member
Just noticed a mistake the top speed of a F-35 is 1 900km/h not 1 600km/h Viktor do you know your military equipment?
There are about dozen or more sources ranging from Russian ones to western but the one that unites them all ... you can find all those info on Russian sources but can go crazy while searching as well
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Rus-Low-Band-Radars.html#Nebo_SVU
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-NOTAM-230408-1.html
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Grumble-Gargoyle.html
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Giant-Gladiator.html
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Rus-Low-Band-Radars.html#Nebo_SVU
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-NOTAM-230408-1.html
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Grumble-Gargoyle.html
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Giant-Gladiator.html
Atilla [TR]
New Member
Ok first of all the Aussies for some odd reason are the only country objecting the purchase of the F-35. That being said they are making a lot of websites with no evidence and make reports before the airplane is even released. Secondly that is just that the airplane is not even out and about and people are already coming with conclusions of it. Always remember the F-35 has stealth for a reason stealth works period you do not see squidly splat on the radar screen why would America make a stealth plane use up so much time and resources if the stealth does not work? Third no one knows how stealthy the planes are the Aussies give blind guesses with no evidence. Talk to any Aussie member on this forum they will tell you the details they all want the F-35 and they say how good of a fighter it will be, and they know what it is going up against. Fourth point the U.S has said this plane will be second to the F-22 in A2A combat know think, the F-22 is unbeaten with a huge difference in all of it's mock dogfights/engagements. Fifth point the U.S knows that they will be facing the S-400, Turkey and Israel also know they will be facing them so why would the U.S make a plane that could not pass the S-400 system?
Atilla [TR]
New Member
Sorry I thought you said 1 600 Km/h also you do know most new planes average around, 2000km/h, also the F-35 carries a very big payload.
Atilla [TR];140692 said:
I know you country is about to get 100 F-35 and me speaking against them for not be able to do that or this makes you mad so you are willing to accept any argument just to keep your F-35 in a good light. I already told you all this information but with painstacking job you can find on other pages (meaning you will have to google using translator on ... that can be frustrating).
But before you judge anything about Carlo Copp I sugest you read something about this man. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlo_Kopp )
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