Thailand selects Gripen and Erieye

Skyman

New Member
Actually The Super Hornet also involved in this saga. Boeing quietly push it into the competition at the last minute. So Super hornet actually 'lost' to gripen in Thailand conpetition. :p:

No one say Gripen is the best aircraft in the world, my friend. But the conbination of Gripen+Erieye+RBS-15+technology transfer give us the good chance to got the complete system in one package and one payment. As I said earlier Americian system is good but they offered only a naked jets. We do not have much money to spend because we face the economic crisis last year. :vamp

So money is the main reason why RTAF splits this program into 2 phases to let RTAF pay all jets for the 10 years duration. The second batch will be approved no later than 2009 and jets in these 2 phases will be delivered in the same period of time to let the other 6 enter the production line behide the 1st phase. Maybe we will see all 12 Gripens in 2011 - 2012.

Since 1 sqn. of RTAF is consists of 18 aircrafts so we can expect the 3rd batch also. :D
 

swerve

Super Moderator
No offence, but both RMAF and Vietnames AF operates more powerful aircraft with the mig-29 pending to retire.
Systems, not platforms. The Thais aren't buying Gripens, they're buying a networked system, including AEW. The Gripens are just one element.
 

contedicavour

New Member
Still, the Vietnamese will soon be operating 30+ SU30 with R73 and R77. By the time the Thais get the Meteors on the Gripen the Russians will probably have come up with an improved R77 as well. IRIS-T has longer range than R73, true, but 30+ SU30 against 12 or eventually 18 Gripen is still a tough comparison.
What I don't get is why Thailand is buying expensive new planes when there are A7, F5 and even older F16 requiring urgent replacements. It would have made more sense to buy several second hand Hornets instead...

cheers
 

zeven

New Member
Qwerty
yeah right, you actually think, the migs will spot Gripen before, Gripen spots the migs? in your dreams, gripen with awac:s have time to fire at least 2 meteor, before the migs even consider to fire a missile. and with some help of TIDLS the poor MIgs don´t stand a chance.
 

qwerty223

New Member
Qwerty
yeah right, you actually think, the migs will spot Gripen before, Gripen spots the migs? in your dreams, gripen with awac:s have time to fire at least 2 meteor, before the migs even consider to fire a missile. and with some help of TIDLS the poor MIgs don´t stand a chance.
All i can say is WTF?!
Mind use your brain to understand before you launch your attack?
I clearly meant that Fulcrum is outdated and Thais should aim themselves a more powerful enemy!
 

contedicavour

New Member
Exactly, the latest SU30 in a version such as MKI equipped with several R73 and R77. Since I wouldn't expect a 100-km BVR shot out of the blue, the Thais would know thanks to the Erieye that the Sukhois are coming but wouldn't attack until the Sukhois spot them on their radars and start acting aggressively. In a nasty confrontation around the 20-30km range between numerically superior Sukhois (reminder : 30 vs 12 or 18 at best) and Gripens having a mini-AWACS wouldn't change much.

cheers
 

SlyDog

New Member
Ok,..."take away" every possible advantage for one part in a potential conflict...how will it be possible to win then?

Add: to put it diffrent, what advantage would F18 bring into such scenario?

Gripen is not that cheep to buy. But by time its possible to put more money for further procurement as a result of low maintain cost.
 
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SlyDog

New Member
Exactly, the latest SU30 in a version such as MKI equipped with several R73 and R77. Since I wouldn't expect a 100-km BVR shot out of the blue, the Thais would know thanks to the Erieye that the Sukhois are coming but wouldn't attack until the Sukhois spot them on their radars and start acting aggressively. In a nasty confrontation around the 20-30km range between numerically superior Sukhois (reminder : 30 vs 12 or 18 at best) and Gripens having a mini-AWACS wouldn't change much.

cheers
Argueing like this is to say: OK, thais will not take advantage of using a "mini-AWACS" - so a "mini-AWACS" will not bring them any advantage :confused:
 

Skyman

New Member
Still, the Vietnamese will soon be operating 30+ SU30 with R73 and R77. By the time the Thais get the Meteors on the Gripen the Russians will probably have come up with an improved R77 as well. IRIS-T has longer range than R73, true, but 30+ SU30 against 12 or eventually 18 Gripen is still a tough comparison.
What I don't get is why Thailand is buying expensive new planes when there are A7, F5 and even older F16 requiring urgent replacements. It would have made more sense to buy several second hand Hornets instead...

cheers
:)

A-7E: We are already forget them.
F-5: We've actually upgraded them. The last F-5 sqn. was upgraded by Israle.
F-16: We are putting Falcon Up/Star and about to launch MLU program which will extend the service life to around 2030.

Exactly, the latest SU30 in a version such as MKI equipped with several R73 and R77. Since I wouldn't expect a 100-km BVR shot out of the blue, the Thais would know thanks to the Erieye that the Sukhois are coming but wouldn't attack until the Sukhois spot them on their radars and start acting aggressively. In a nasty confrontation around the 20-30km range between numerically superior Sukhois (reminder : 30 vs 12 or 18 at best) and Gripens having a mini-AWACS wouldn't change much.

cheers
Don't forget F-16s. RTAF operates 57 F-16s now. The MLU program gonna start this year or no later than 2009 and RTAF requirement is datalink in F-16s. So you may needs falcons in your equation. :D
 
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Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
Exactly, the latest SU30 in a version such as MKI equipped with several R73 and R77. Since I wouldn't expect a 100-km BVR shot out of the blue, the Thais would know thanks to the Erieye that the Sukhois are coming but wouldn't attack until the Sukhois spot them on their radars and start acting aggressively. In a nasty confrontation around the 20-30km range between numerically superior Sukhois (reminder : 30 vs 12 or 18 at best) and Gripens having a mini-AWACS wouldn't change much.

cheers
The information dominance Eryeie will bring to the RTAF would be more than a counter for such a numerical superiority.

As a really basic example (there are plenty more), the grippen will be able to take BVR missile shots without useing its radar and can maneuver as soon as the missile is launched, the flankers can not (they need to track the target with their own radars untill the R77 aquires the gripen). This means if the Vietnamese want to have a decent chance of the R77's hitting their rapidly maneuvering gripens they have to fly directly into the incoming Meteors/AMRAAM's. That is a HUGE disadvantage.

This doesnt take the huge desision makeing advantages into account.
 

contedicavour

New Member
:)

A-7E: We are already forget them.
F-5: We've actually upgraded them. The last F-5 sqn. was upgraded by Israle.
F-16: We are putting Falcon Up/Star and about to launch MLU program which will extend the service life to around 2030.



Don't forget F-16s. RTAF operates 57 F-16s now. The MLU program gonna start this year or no later than 2009 and RTAF requirement is datalink in F-16s. So you may needs falcons in your equation. :D
Thks for all this info ! The F16s will be carrying AIM120B then ? Or some Israeli Derby BVR missile ?

cheers
 

contedicavour

New Member
The information dominance Eryeie will bring to the RTAF would be more than a counter for such a numerical superiority.

As a really basic example (there are plenty more), the grippen will be able to take BVR missile shots without useing its radar and can maneuver as soon as the missile is launched, the flankers can not (they need to track the target with their own radars untill the R77 aquires the gripen). This means if the Vietnamese want to have a decent chance of the R77's hitting their rapidly maneuvering gripens they have to fly directly into the incoming Meteors/AMRAAM's. That is a HUGE disadvantage.

This doesnt take the huge desision makeing advantages into account.
Ok I see your point. I just wanted to highlight that an almost 1:3 ratio (12 vs 30) in modern superiority fighters is unlikely to be fully made up for by having a Erieye AEW platform. Buying second hand F18s would have saved enough money to bring the ratio to a more manageable 1:2...

However our friend from Bangkok just brought up the very good point that if you add 57 MLU F16s in the equation this changes the situation massively in Thailand's favour despite the small number of Gripens.

cheers
 

Skyman

New Member
Thks for all this info ! The F16s will be carrying AIM120B then ? Or some Israeli Derby BVR missile ?

cheers
The news from Defense & Security Expo 2007 in Bangkok said that Lockheed Martin will provides the MLU kit for RTAF F-16s. Maybe it's gonna be like mini-CCIP and RTAF already has AIM-120C in its inventory. So it's should be AIM-120C. :cool:

Cheers!!!
 

qwerty223

New Member
Ok I see your point. I just wanted to highlight that an almost 1:3 ratio (12 vs 30) in modern superiority fighters is unlikely to be fully made up for by having a Erieye AEW platform. Buying second hand F18s would have saved enough money to bring the ratio to a more manageable 1:2...

However our friend from Bangkok just brought up the very good point that if you add 57 MLU F16s in the equation this changes the situation massively in Thailand's favour despite the small number of Gripens.

cheers
Well since someone brought up future plan, and took account of upgrading the current fleet, i would like to point out a common blind spot. Military power is a dynamic equation. However most of the time, when we(forumers) tried to counter the other side of the equation, we changed the value on our side but neglect corresponding adjustment on the other. Anyways, i foreseen neighbors of the Thai will soon have some progress that will turn the equation if the Thai did not acquire the next batch of Gripen as soon as possible.
 

contedicavour

New Member
The news from Defense & Security Expo 2007 in Bangkok said that Lockheed Martin will provides the MLU kit for RTAF F-16s. Maybe it's gonna be like mini-CCIP and RTAF already has AIM-120C in its inventory. So it's should be AIM-120C. :cool:

Cheers!!!
Lucky you ! AIM 120 C... in Italy we are still stuck with AIM 120 B because we are eventually expecting the formidable Meteor air to air BVR missile. However in the meanwhile we have Typhoons flying with the -B version :(

cheers
 

Pert

New Member
the best part to wait is to see they (RTAF,RMAF and RSAF) do a joint exercise...just imagine Thais with Gripen,Msia with SU-30MKM and Singapore with F-15...:)
but this MAYBE will be real within 3-5 years since all of them just receive/order this aircraft and need to be expert before participate in joint exercise...
 

Skyman

New Member
the best part to wait is to see they (RTAF,RMAF and RSAF) do a joint exercise...just imagine Thais with Gripen,Msia with SU-30MKM and Singapore with F-15...:)
but this MAYBE will be real within 3-5 years since all of them just receive/order this aircraft and need to be expert before participate in joint exercise...
3 Fighters from 3 Continents. Interesting.

On Thailand, currently we have an annual exercise with Singapore & US called Cope Tiger. Exercise with Singapore, US, Japan, Indonesia called Cobra Gold. (Japan and Indonesia do not send their aircraft) The biannual exercise with Malaysia call Air Thamal.

If 3 countries can set up the joint exercise it would be very good. :D
 

Skyman

New Member
SPOTLIGHT
Wings of change


Turning away from US F16s and opting for Swedish fighter jets marks a big change in air force thinking, writes Saritdet Marukatat and Wassana Nanuam.



Volvo cars on the streets, Ericsson mobile phones in people's hands and, soon, Gripen jets in the sky. Consumers are already familiar with many Swedish products, which are renowned for their durability and simplicity. And now the air force has a liking for Swedish fighter jets.


When the first of the new Gripen 39 C/D planes reach Thailand in 2011, it will be the first time in modern history that the air force's frontline combat aircraft have not been made in the United States. In the past the army and the air force have relied on tanks and planes made in the US.


The air force has opted for the multi-purpose Swedish aircraft, which was chosen over Russia's SU-30 jets because of several factors besides the price tag. One option the air force had before deciding on the Swedish fighters was to upgrade its F16 fleet.


The Gripen jets use shorter runways for landing and takeoff than the American planes, air force chief Chalit Phukphasuk said.


They can fly up to four hours after refuelling in the air, they give the air force real time operation with data links to central command and they fit in with the intentions of Thailand.


Special bonuses that also come with the 19-billion-baht deal for six of the multi-purpose Swedish planes include guaranteed spare parts, training, another aircraft equipped with an airborne early warning system, scholarships for Thai pilots and a transport plane.


Under the deal sealed between the Swedish firm and the Thai air force in Stockholm on Feb 9, four two-seater Gripen jets and two one-seater jets will be delivered in 2011. Another six will be purchased in the future.


However, the deal has met with criticism over the apparent rush for approval before the retirement of the military-installed government of then prime minister Surayud Chulanont. Gen Surayud's cabinet agreed in principle to the deal in October last year and officially approved it in January, a month before it stepped aside for the elected government led by the People Power party.


When Gen Surayud took the helm as government leader, the army also pushed for the purchase of armoured vehicles from Ukraine.


But ACM Chalit, who chaired the now-defunct coup-making body _ the Council for National Security _ after army chief Gen Sonthi Boonyaratkalin stepped down, dismissed the criticism. The arms purchase was a long-term plan as the country needed new planes to replace the old, Vietnam-era F5 fighters, he argued.


An independent security source said the Gripen deal underlined the need for Thailand to end the domination of military equipment from the US, which is Thailand's key security ally.


''The freeze in defence assistance after the coup was a factor. It made the top brass realise that it is time for diversification,'' said the source. The US ban was affecting the nation's security, its ability to defend itself.


''The temporary ban on defence aid definitely was a factor''.


The Gripen jets will be replacing the US-made F5 fighters which are gradually being phased out. The last F5s will be retired in the same year the Swedish planes arrive. Thailand's first squadron of 12 F16 jets were purchased from the US in 1988, followed by further orders of new and refurbished F16s. By 2039 they will all be retired, according to the air force leader.


The six Gripen planes will be stationed at Surat Thani air base where the F5s are being decommissioned. ''Gripens are more suitable for operations over the sea,'' said ACM Chalit.


The location where the new jets will be stationed is very important.


The fighters, which will be equipped with air-to-ship missiles, will be the main protector of the Gulf of Thailand and Andaman Sea. They will also be available for the southern provinces where the insurgency has disrupted security since 2004.


''Gripens will be a cover for the Thai navy,'' he said. ''They will not be here as part of an arms race. They will be here for defence purposes.''

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/17Mar2008_news21.php
 

Paxter

New Member
Just commenting on something posted on the previous page. Fighter vs Fighter i have no doubts over the SU-30s abilites, but as a whole package the Gripen + erieye + weapons load outs. Puts its direct neighbors in a disadvantage. Especially if Say Malaysia or Vietnam Are the aggressors. Seems like the thai's did the right thing 6 fighters to 1 erieye thats a good defense set up. Something i wish Malaysia taught about rather than keep on wanting to get those SH.
 

Skyman

New Member
AIR FORCE GRIPENS

Saab: Jets won't be out of date
WASSANA NANUAM



LINKOPING, SWEDEN : The Gripen jet fighters to be delivered to the Thai air force will still be state of the art, despite the roll-out of a demonstration model of a new version, the Swedish manufacturer says. On Wednesday, Gripen revealed a demonstration model of its new generation jet fighter in the Swedish city of Linkoping and celebrated the sale of its planes to four countries, including Thailand.


The next generation of Gripen jets will have a more advanced radar system, a new engine and new avionics architecture, said the president and chief executive officer of Saab, Ake Svansson. Saab is the manufacturer of Gripen jets.


Saab test pilot Magnus Olisson said Thailand should not be concerned that its fighters will be out of date because the new version is still in the development process and will not be available until about 2015.


The air force signed a deal in February with the company to buy six Gripen multirole aircraft of the latest C and D version (four two-seat Gripen D and two single-seat Gripen C fighters), a Saab aerial surveillance system and one Saab 340 aircraft for training and transport, logistics support, the training of pilots and technicians and scholarships.


The total value of the deal is 19 billion baht, according to a statement from Gripen. Delivery is set for 2011.


Mr Svansson said there will be no delays delivering the six aircraft and the technology to the air force. He also dismissed rumours that the fighters destined for Thailand will be old ones refurbished.


''We will build new Gripen fighter aircraft for Thailand,'' he said.


He described the Thai purchase as ''a big change for the Thai air force'' and for the firm. Thailand is the first Asian country to buy Gripen jets, which will replace its ageing F-5 fighters made in the US.


Swedish Defence Minister Sten Tolgfors said the deal with Thailand underlined the close ties between the two countries and a long-term commitment to logistic support for the air force.


The air force plans to buy six more fighters of the same type from Sweden. But the decision on the next purchase has not been finalised.


Mr Svansson said he hoped Thai politics will not hamper that plan.


The air force will station the Swedish fighters at a base in Surat Thani

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/25Apr2008_news14.php
 
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