Indian Navy (IN) News and Discussion

[Aliph Ahmed]

Umm, for next half century? Which individual procurement decision made around 1957 defined Indian foreign policy for the last half century? USS Kitty Hawk is a mighty ship, but it won't certainly last for a half century anymore. It has limited life left for it. For the rest of it's operational life IN would be tied to US supply chain, but that won't last for a half century...

Never underestimate the Indians. If they can keep the current almost 70 years old carrier floating as also pointed out by contedicavour and Harryiedl then Kitty Hawk will definitely go more then half century.

All depends on if India is capable enough to smartly go for such a huge strategic shift as pointed out by Kams.

 

[kilo]

Maybe Russia will just try and keep the Admiral Gorshkov for themselves.

 

[kams]

Agreed, should be interesting. There are several things Russia can leverage here.

Galrahn,

There are couple of reasons why I am sceptical about whole Kitty Hawk afair. Let me try to put my case across.

1. Cost-

Although as you pointed out Gorshkov may cost additional $600 million to 1 billion, and KH can be refitted easily in that amount (and even if KH was given free), there are other huge costs involved with KH.
- Air Wing- To fully exploit KH, IN would need 60 Superhornets - Cost $5 billion
- AEW - Hawkeye , 3 units - $1.5 billion (?) (not sure correct me if I am wrong)
- Helicopters - Additional Sea Kings, SAR, Multi-purpose helis or equivalent, Cost ??
- 3000 additional service men
- Fleet support, replenishment tankers.
- Infrastructure cost - expanding Karwar naval base to accomodate KH, Logistics etc etc.

I estimate acquisition cost to be around $8 Billion

2. Strategic implication - KH will alter regional balance forever. I am not talking about Pakistan Navy here.

3. Political - Domestic opposition - Very real chance of government falling, as commies will withdraw the support to the present government.

I really do not believe the bit about Robert Gates carrying the letter by President Bush offering KH. IMHO Presidents do not write such letters, unless they knew in advance that offer will be accepted! India turning down the offer will be a personal snub to President Bush.

But who knows, Indians may have already accepted.

 

[aaaditya]

Never underestimate the Indians. If they can keep the current almost 70 years old carrier floating as also pointed out by contedicavour and Harryiedl then Kitty Hawk will definitely go more then half century.

All depends on if India is capable enough to smartly go for such a huge strategic shift as pointed out by Kams.

agreed thats a great capability of the indians,they can rebuild ,repair and renovate old technology and use them to split the neighbouring country into half leading to 90000 of the enemy soldiers to surrender,it took just 13 days to seperate bangladesh from pakistan.

 

[Salty Dog]

Galrahn,

There are couple of reasons why I am sceptical about whole Kitty Hawk afair. Let me try to put my case across.

1. Cost-

Although as you pointed out Gorshkov may cost additional $600 million to 1 billion, and KH can be refitted easily in that amount (and even if KH was given free), there are other huge costs involved with KH.
- Air Wing- To fully exploit KH, IN would need 60 Superhornets - Cost $5 billion
- AEW - Hawkeye , 3 units - $1.5 billion (?) (not sure correct me if I am wrong)
- Helicopters - Additional Sea Kings, SAR, Multi-purpose helis or equivalent, Cost ??
- 3000 additional service men
- Fleet support, replenishment tankers.
- Infrastructure cost - expanding Karwar naval base to accomodate KH, Logistics etc etc.

I estimate acquisition cost to be around $8 Billion

2. Strategic implication - KH will alter regional balance forever. I am not talking about Pakistan Navy here.

3. Political - Domestic opposition - Very real chance of government falling, as commies will withdraw the support to the present government.

I really do not believe the bit about Robert Gates carrying the letter by President Bush offering KH. IMHO Presidents do not write such letters, unless they knew in advance that offer will be accepted! India turning down the offer will be a personal snub to President Bush.

But who knows, Indians may have already accepted.

The US Government never offers any defense equipment, used or new. There must be a formal request made by the customer government. If Secretary Gates is carrying a letter, it will be a response for such a request.

In this case, the Indian Government would have initiated the request. Also, it's not a done deal even should India sign an acceptance letter. The US Congress still has to approve the transfer.

 

[kams]

Umm, for next half century? Which individual procurement decision made around 1957 defined Indian foreign policy for the last half century? USS Kitty Hawk is a mighty ship, but it won't certainly last for a half century anymore. It has limited life left for it. For the rest of it's operational life IN would be tied to US supply chain, but that won't last for a half century...

Sorry I missed your post!. I wasn't talking about KH's life, but the headstart IN will get in operating mega-carriers. That advantage will be hard to beat by others in the region.

 

[kams]

On nuke deal scent with ‘old’ Hawk

New Delhi, Feb. 25: US defence secretary Robert Gates is expected in New Delhi tomorrow for a visit that is largely intended to suss out the Indian government’s reading on the civilian nuclear deal and bolster military relations.

Neither the US embassy nor the Indian defence ministry is revealing the agenda for Gates’s talks. But the US defence secretary, who is leading a 46-member delegation, is scheduled to meet Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, external affairs minister Pranab Mukherjee and national security adviser M.K. Narayanan apart from his counterpart, A.K. Antony. He is also slated to meet the leader of the Opposition, L.K. Advani.

A US newspaper has reported on its website that Gates is carrying a letter from President George W. Bush offering to give the aircraft carrier USS Kitty Hawk to India, along with 65 F/A-18E/F Superhornet aircraft that may be based on it.

Indian defence ministry sources officially declined to comment on such an offer.

But India’s navy chief, Admiral Sureesh Mehta, said in December that India was not interested in the Kitty Hawk right now because, in his words, “it is too old”.

There have been other commentators, however, who find merit in an offer of the USS Kitty Hawk to India. A defence ministry official was ambiguous when asked if a formal offer of the ship was made and said there was “some talk” of it about two years back.

Meanwhile India, Russia finalise new deal on Gorshkov

Not sure about the accuracy of this report, especially the part about what Russians are installing new...all those were supposed to be new in the first place. Gorshkov didn't have arrestor gear, Ski Jump and it's boilers were changed!

 

[tphuang]

We will have to wait for Robrt gates visit to know the truth! Can't imagine IN having the budget for 65 F18's. In addition Kitty Hawk doesn't fit in to IN's 2020 plan of having 3 Carrier groups. Unless 4000 US sailors decide to take up Indian Citizenship, IN will difficulty in manning her for next 3 years.

In case KH offer is taken up by IN, it will be a political and strategic decision, which will define India's foreign policy for next half century. This is not an easy decision and GoI has to tread very carefully.

In another development Lockmart is bidding for the contract to build 7 P-17A Frigates for IN. They are tying up with India's L&T and Korea's Hundai. Aegis is on the offer.

one kitty hawk would give IN more power projection than 3 carrier groups. Of course, it would be available much less often, but that's another question. It certainly would give PLAN the excuse for their large carriers.

Meanwhile India, Russia finalise new deal on Gorshkov

Not sure about the accuracy of this report, especially the part about what Russians are installing new...all those were supposed to be new in the first place. Gorshkov didn't have arrestor gear, Ski Jump and it's boilers were changed!

I'm no longer shocked at the Russians abilities of putting positive spins on things like this.

One question. Why is India still getting into new contracts with the Russians?

 

[Galrahn]

Meanwhile India, Russia finalise new deal on Gorshkov

Not sure about the accuracy of this report, especially the part about what Russians are installing new...all those were supposed to be new in the first place. Gorshkov didn't have arrestor gear, Ski Jump and it's boilers were changed!

8 hours earlier this report from Russia said something different. Somehow I don't think India is close to a deal with Russia, as DID pointed out today, Sevmash shipyard could be on the verge of going out of business.

Kams, India is already in the market for fighters and the E-2, which they might buy without the Kitty Hawk.I absolutely agree with your point on costs, KH would be a major cost increase over expectations of the Gorshkov.

I don't disagree with your other points either, but I think one factor should be highlighted. I think the strategic implication is intentional, from the US side, not because the US wants into the Indian arms market (hell Europeans sell better stuff for a lot of what India is buying in that regard), rather I think the US is doing all it can to build a partner in India. As far as strategic implications go, India and the US can build one of two relationships, either India becomes a regional hegemon or India becomes part of the global beat cops for a globalized economy. I think the second is much better for both India and the west.

Right now you have the US and Europe doing this global beat cop thing, and as part of that process India gains exactly what they state they are looking for strategically, influence for peace. As a regional hegemon, they have to deal with the issues that occur when other nations see the growth, success, and isolationism as a threat. India is rapidly approaching a strategic, political choice. Either go the path of China and Russia by growing through isolationism in a globalizing world, or embrace the change. India would be wise to get in that game before China does, because once China enters that game they can potentially lock India out.

Think about it.

 

[funtz]

Is that the 1000 navy initiative? - Global cop patrolling the high sea, keeping the worlds supply safe.

Similar aspirations/will have been expressed regionally, and the IN seems to be thinking about it.
‘Indian Ocean naval summit opens’
http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/India_calls_for_military_alliance_at_naval_summit_999.html

However this was played down for some reasons, certainly shows a will to act, though the recent situation of "outside observer" in the Sri-Lankan situation showed something missing and sure enough other players are making their moves into that area.

in this case (Sri Lanka) the problem is the internal mess that will be created with direct involvement, it has to be from the outside mostly making gun-running and illegal transportation a fatal job with no hope of life insurance, for more direct involvement India will need to cooperate with another player which might have some interest in taking up this role.:unknown
The economic/soft side of this has been worked on a lot during the last decade with trade agreements/support on the international stage/intelligence sharing etc. etc. However it still is a long way away from a solution.

As far as the regional situation goes, around Indian ocean China has made many moves, which will only help in pushing India to 'tilt' for any global initiatives.

Yesterday, the president expressing her views on the proposed nuclear agreement and all hell broke loose, our RED brothers and their leaders in Delhi clearly expressed their opinions in something like:
"If the government goes its way, we will go ours"
My my with allies like these who needs an opposition

However the reds have only protested on the Logistics sharing agreement between India and US once, and i have lost count of the protests on the N deal, this could be interesting.

one kitty hawk would give IN more power projection than 3 carrier groups. Of course, it would be available much less often, but that's another question. It certainly would give PLAN the excuse for their large carriers.

I'm no longer shocked at the Russians abilities of putting positive spins on things like this.

One question. Why is India still getting into new contracts with the Russians?

That may be, however 1 super carrier will not replace the need for 2 AC groups, it can only be in one place at a time and there is a huge ocean near us, it for this purpose the navy wants the carries groups (one with each fleet) and the three carriers.

India has on going and future plans with the Russians because the navy needs the ships, and plans have been made which also address financial and political concerns.

If this carries on its hard to see some future projects which have the budget for other options to go to Russian shipyards.

 

[kams]

Galharn, I believe we are on same page.
Now some reports are emerging, where US officials are strongly denying KH story.

Gates will tell Indian officials that U.S. companies offer several advantages over competitors from other countries, said the defense officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity. Those include a high level of support and maintenance for products over the life of an agreement and ways of doing business that are transparent and corruption-free, they said.

One official strongly denied a report that the U.S. might sweeten the jet fighter deal by offering to sell the Indians the aircraft carrier USS Kitty Hawk.

From here

SQUASH IT"
U.S. defence officials, however, denied a report that India wanted the United States to give it the USS Kitty Hawk aircraft carrier in exchange for New Delhi's agreement to purchase American F-18 fighters.
"Squash it," one senior official, speaking en route to New Delhi, said of the report.
"I will fall on my sword, I will hurl myself out of this airplane if there is any truth to this stupid story."

from here

However still the game is not over.

 

[niteshkjain]

good news

India successfully test fires K-15 ballistic missile

Tuesday, 26 February , 2008, 13:20
Last Updated: Tuesday, 26 February , 2008, 15:17

: India on Tuesday test-fired an indigenously developed nuclear-capable submarine-launched ballistic missile (SLBM) from an undersea location off the Orissa coast, an official source said.


“The missile was launched around 1 pm,” the source said of the sixth test of the 700-km range Sagarika missile.

Since the Indian Navy does not have a submarine capable of firing an SLBM, the test firing was conducted from an underwater launcher positioned 50 metres under the surface of the sea and 8 km off the Orissa coast.

Prahlada, Chief Controller of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) that developed Sagarika, said earlier this month it was also readying for a “crucial” test of the missile from a submarine. “We have asked the navy for a submarine to enable us conduct the test,” Prahlada told reporters during the DEFEXPO International Defence Exposition on February 16-19.

However, this could be a while away as Russia is yet to respond to the Indian Navy's request for loaning an Akula-class submarine that is capable of launching SLBMs. The navy's Russian-made Kilo-class submarines and the German-designed HDW submarines do not have the capability to fire such missiles.

The success achieved last year with exo-atmospheric (outside the atmosphere) and endo-atmospheric (within the atmosphere) anti-ballistic missiles, as also with the surface-to-air Akash missile, had apparently encouraged DRDO scientists to test the Sagarika again.

Powered by a turbojet, the missile can carry a 500-kg payload. It is 8.5 metres long and about a metre in diameter.

http://sify.com/news/fullstory.php?id=14610814

 

[nevidimka]

If the deal is true, i think India can deal in a win win situation for both US n russia. It can use the kitty hawk, but reduce the plane cost by using 60-65 Mig29K's. They would probably only need the 3 E2c's from US.

 

[Salty Dog]

8 hours earlier this report from Russia said something different. Somehow I don't think India is close to a deal with Russia, as DID pointed out today, Sevmash shipyard could be on the verge of going out of business.

Kams, India is already in the market for fighters and the E-2, which they might buy without the Kitty Hawk.I absolutely agree with your point on costs, KH would be a major cost increase over expectations of the Gorshkov.

I don't disagree with your other points either, but I think one factor should be highlighted. I think the strategic implication is intentional, from the US side, not because the US wants into the Indian arms market (hell Europeans sell better stuff for a lot of what India is buying in that regard), rather I think the US is doing all it can to build a partner in India. As far as strategic implications go, India and the US can build one of two relationships, either India becomes a regional hegemon or India becomes part of the global beat cops for a globalized economy. I think the second is much better for both India and the west.

Right now you have the US and Europe doing this global beat cop thing, and as part of that process India gains exactly what they state they are looking for strategically, influence for peace. As a regional hegemon, they have to deal with the issues that occur when other nations see the growth, success, and isolationism as a threat. India is rapidly approaching a strategic, political choice. Either go the path of China and Russia by growing through isolationism in a globalizing world, or embrace the change. India would be wise to get in that game before China does, because once China enters that game they can potentially lock India out.

Think about it.

I do not see China growing through isolationism, on the contrary the Chinese are embarked on swallowing up businesses all over the world with their monetary surpluses. They have remained discreet, so few have noticed. Western businesses have also made or are making strategic partnerships with Chinese industry. China has been building her military capabilities to protect those assets. I do not envision any conflict with China at all. That would mean the crash of the Chinese economy and no country on this planet would want that to happen.

I agree with your observations on India's roles as a military power securing it's region in the global scheme of preserving the peace. In the economic world, India has been in the shadow of China, but in that shadow India's growth has been spectacular and in my opinion more stable.

With all this in mind it will be economic power which will remain a driving force in world politics. Having a strong military to back that up has importance. That's what China and India are striving to do.

Of the noteworthy emerging market economies, the BRIC countries (Brazil Russia, India, and China), it is interesting to note that three of these are in some way involved in the same region.

 

[Salty Dog]

8 hours earlier this report from Russia said something different. Somehow I don't think India is close to a deal with Russia, as DID pointed out today, Sevmash shipyard could be on the verge of going out of business.

Kams, India is already in the market for fighters and the E-2, which they might buy without the Kitty Hawk.I absolutely agree with your point on costs, KH would be a major cost increase over expectations of the Gorshkov.

I don't disagree with your other points either, but I think one factor should be highlighted. I think the strategic implication is intentional, from the US side, not because the US wants into the Indian arms market (hell Europeans sell better stuff for a lot of what India is buying in that regard), rather I think the US is doing all it can to build a partner in India. As far as strategic implications go, India and the US can build one of two relationships, either India becomes a regional hegemon or India becomes part of the global beat cops for a globalized economy. I think the second is much better for both India and the west.

Right now you have the US and Europe doing this global beat cop thing, and as part of that process India gains exactly what they state they are looking for strategically, influence for peace. As a regional hegemon, they have to deal with the issues that occur when other nations see the growth, success, and isolationism as a threat. India is rapidly approaching a strategic, political choice. Either go the path of China and Russia by growing through isolationism in a globalizing world, or embrace the change. India would be wise to get in that game before China does, because once China enters that game they can potentially lock India out.

Think about it.

Galharn, I believe we are on same page.
Now some reports are emerging, where US officials are strongly denying KH story.



From here




from here

However still the game is not over.

India desperately needs aircraft carriers, too, as its purchase of the Russian ship Admiral Gorshkov is delayed, and India's own carrier, the INS Viraat, is aging fast. For weeks, reports have circulated in Indian newspapers and on various blogs that the U.S. would give the U.S.S. Kitty Hawk, a conventionally fueled carrier that was slated for decommissioning, to India. But a Navy spokesman in Washington, Lt. Col. Clay Doss, shot that story down. "We're not doing it," he said. "The Navy has no plans to transfer the Kitty Hawk to India, nor is this a subject of discussion between our navies at any level." He noted that any transfer of ships so huge requires congressional approval. The Navy, he added, hasn't sought such approval to transfer the Kitty Hawk to India.

http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/feb2008/gb20080226_068998_page_2.htm

The rest of the article is worth a read as it covers a variety of issues with Sec. Gates visit to India.

 

[funtz]

Vikramaditya to be ready by 2010, India offers manpower support
Sandeep Unnithan
New Delhi, February 27, 2008

A resolution of the Russian logjam seems to be in sight with the refit of the aircraft carrier Vikramaditya (ex-Admiral Gorshkov ) to be completed in the next two years. This new deadline follows a five-day visit to Russia by a delegation led by Indian defence secretary Vijay Singh which concluded on February 24.

In what could be a first, India has offered to send 500 workers from its shipyards to Sevmash, the Arctic shipyard, where the carrier is currently being refitted. This comes after the Russian side said that it needed a manpower boost if the warship was to be completed in time.

The carrier will now go into sea trials lasting 18-months after completing the refit in late 2010. The Russian side told defence secretary Vijay Singh that the refurbishment of the carrier was the highest priority for them and that they were really embarrassed about the delay.
India has agreed to pay more for the refit of the carrier. The amount is yet to be calculated but is said to be twice the earlier estimate of $ 750 million. A naval team lead by Vice Admiral Deshpande is to shortly visit the carrier and the entire technical process of finalizing the revised costs will be completed by the end of March.

Russian officials said they did not want the aircraft carrier but wanted a reaffirmation of the fact that India wanted it. India’s only aircraft carrier the INS Viraat will be phased out in 2015. Indian MoD officials said that a ship of the size of the Gorshkov would cost at least $ 4 billion (R 16,000 crore).

The renegotiation marks a major climb-down from the navy’s earlier stance of not paying more for the aircraft carrier Gorshkov and has ruled out renegotiations. “Paying more will set a bad precedent,” navy chief Admiral Sureesh Mehta said in December last year.

India bought the 44,000 tonne ex-Soviet aircraft carrier in 2004 after nearly a decade of negotiations. As per the contract, Russia gifted India the hulk, but India had to pay for its five-year refit estimated at $ 750 million. India also agrees to buy a squadron of MiG-29s and Ka-28 and Ka-31 helicopters to fly off the carrier for another $ 750 million.

Early last year, officials at the Russian shipyard Sevmash said that they would be unable to meet the 2008 delivery date. This was because they had planned to replace only some of the ship's wiring and later discovered that its Soviet-era fireproof insulation could not be cracked open without damaging the rest of the wiring. Hence, the entire ship has to be rewired with several kilometers of new wiring, pushing up costs.

Lack of financing and poor project management was stated as other reasons for the delay. Adding to this is the shortage of personnel. Sevmash has diverted nearly 1000 of the 1300 workers from the Gorshkov to building a series of Borey class ballistic missile submarines for the Russian navy.

By this time, India has already paid up nearly 80 per cent of the $ 1.5 billion deal. Late last year, Russia demanded $ 1 billion from India for the refit. Russian officials base their new calculation on the premise that the not only was the deal valued on 2004 dollar prices but the original estimate of $ 700 million dollars was three times less than what it should have been.

The Vikramaditya will last the navy another 30 years or at least until 2040. It will be supplanted by two other 38,000 tonne Indigenous Aircraft Carriers being built at the Cochin Shipyard Ltd (CSL).

http://indiatoday.digitaltoday.in/russia-to-deliver-gorshkov-by-mid-2011.html

Well went through that news report, as many people have said before, India will not back out of the Gorshkov deal and no hope of the kitty hawk changing hands.

I hope the government has the decency to explain this mess to the public.

And for the poor chaps who might have to go to Russia to do the work, I hope they pay them well, and I hope its not another one of the -10 degree Celsius weather.

- And considering the rate at which the navy needs to build itself for the coming decade, do we even have 500 trained men just laying around waiting for work?

 

[kams]

Ok now from the horses mouth.

United States Defense Secretary Robert Gates, who is visiting India, on Thursday denied that he has come with an offer to give India the aging US aircraft carrier Kitty Hawk.

Speaking to a select group of journalists over breakfast in New Delhi, he brushed aside the speculation, saying, "Even I have heard about the rumour."

US not offering Kitty Hawk to India: Gates

 

[Salty Dog]

Ok now from the horses mouth.



US not offering Kitty Hawk to India: Gates

Perhaps a year or so from now, 500 Indian shipyard workers in Sevmash shipyard will wish this was no rumour. <<<Sorry I just couldn't resist!!>>>

 

[kams]

Perhaps a year or so from now, 500 Indian shipyard workers in Sevmash shipyard will wish this was no rumour. <<<Sorry I just couldn't resist!!>>>

500 Indian workers who can't utter a single word of Russian, in a arctic Russian yard! ROFLMAO.

Someone in the negotiating team sure has sense of Humor.

 

[Galrahn]

It is all interesting, and speculation until the deals are done.

I still think the Indians will effectively play the US card to their favor in this deal. The US doesn't officially deny the KH deal, rather the press can only find anonymous people to quote, which looks intentional. In that way the idea is in play for Indian negotiators.

Gates comment is classic Gates. "Even I have heard about the rumour." I love that, is there any doubt he is a former spook?

Just like Putin.