no way China will buy something like this. IN should just wise up and kiss the ship goodbye and ask the Russians to pay back their losses. Purchase one of the European designs. Of course, that would require a huge shake up, but why would you want to purchase anymore Russian ships?
Indian Navy (IN) News and Discussion
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Ozzy Blizzard
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Agreed. PLAN is in a stronger financial position than IN ATM, so why would they take on a failed rusian refit effort when their own CV programmes are in full swing?
This is unnessisary IMO. They have their own CV programme, and unless they want a Invincible style pocket carreier they're going to have to go for a super carrier 'esk CVF. WAY too expenseive, WAY to big and western fit out. Just keep Viraat in service untill 2012~14 untill Vikrant comes on lin, but just build 2 of them.
Things are getting worse for Sevmash.
Norwegian Odfjell cancels deal with Sevmash
In related news..
link
Norwegian Odfjell cancels deal with Sevmash
That's hard hitting statement and response from Norwegians. Now this clears all the speculation about Russian going slow on Vickramaditya on account of Ind-US bonhomie! and how IN navy tried to get the ship for peanuts when Russians were in bad ship. They screwing everybody!
In related news..
link
So we will have the Migs and no platform to fly them for next 3-4 years. Looking at the bright side, they me be loaned to IAF.
and then when you want the Migs back IAF won't oblige
as they like them very much. Severmash seems to be a cowboy outfit as nobody seems happy with them
i wonder who will build the Chemical tankers now Korea, Japan, France
contedicavour
New Member
Amazing how the Sevmash shipyards are getting into a deeper mess every month. The Indian Navy must be extremely upset. The whole Gorshkov transfer will end up costing like a new build indigenous aircraft carrier at this speed. Hell it might even end up being operational at the same time ?!
May be they should start thinking of some stop-gap programme until the IAC enters service and until the Gorshkov limps its way to Indian harbours... may be one of the Invincibles in reserve in the RN ? No good to play around with the new MIG29s but there are still 22 Harriers to fly and Viraat is getting sooooooooo old (soon 50 years old...)
cheers
May be they should start thinking of some stop-gap programme until the IAC enters service and until the Gorshkov limps its way to Indian harbours... may be one of the Invincibles in reserve in the RN ? No good to play around with the new MIG29s but there are still 22 Harriers to fly and Viraat is getting sooooooooo old (soon 50 years old...)
cheers
There's one Invincible in reserve - Invincible herself. I don't think India has 22 flyable Sea Harriers left, though the number could potentially be boosted slightly by buying the few remaining ex-RN Sea Harriers still available in the UK (& yes, there are a few). The decision to reject those that were offered when the RN SHARs were withdrawn from service must be one of the worst procurement decisions ever. Rejected because they were offered without the radar or missiles, when the Indian navy was already negotiating for an upgrade of their entire fleet with the EL/M-2032 & Derby, & they could simply have been plugged into the programme!
contedicavour
New Member
Oh yes you are right, very bad mistake they made...
Transferring/leasing the Invincible itself would be a good idea to allow the IN to have at least one carrier (although small) in those inevitable moments when the 50+ year old Viraat/Hermes just can't sail anymore.
The first IAC arrives in 2012, and the Gorshkov probably not before 2010...
cheers
a tiny nit pic Hermes can be called over 60 years old and won't be retired till 2012 at the earliest aged 70 years old. as it was layed down in 1944 but wasn't completed till 1954 and there are 15 Indian Harriers i think and according to Wiki[i know thats not most reliable source but best i can do at the moment]
I honestly can't think of an effective ansew to the Gorskhov an other problem with Invinisable is that it isn't up for sale till 2010 anyway.
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contedicavour
New Member
Your (I mean British) carriers last so long that Invincible could be kept in service in India as a backup until 2030
Let's say the RN accepts to turn it over 1 year early in 2009 and the deal could be worth it...
Otherwise the IN will remain clearly without a reliable carrier until after 2010...
cheers
cheers
CV 63 Kitty Hawk
From the official USS Kitty Hawk website:
"USS Kitty Hawk will be turning over duties as the Navy’s only forward-deployed aircraft carrier to USS George Washington (CVN 73) in the summer of 2008. Kitty Hawk will return to the West Coast after that and will eventually decommission."
The USS Kitty Hawk, CV-63 should decommission in 2008. Whilst I am sure it is well worn out, it would be interesting stop-gap for the IN for a flat-top and a chance to experience CATOBAR operations should India acquire it as a hot-transfer.
From the official USS Kitty Hawk website:
"USS Kitty Hawk will be turning over duties as the Navy’s only forward-deployed aircraft carrier to USS George Washington (CVN 73) in the summer of 2008. Kitty Hawk will return to the West Coast after that and will eventually decommission."
The USS Kitty Hawk, CV-63 should decommission in 2008. Whilst I am sure it is well worn out, it would be interesting stop-gap for the IN for a flat-top and a chance to experience CATOBAR operations should India acquire it as a hot-transfer.
contedicavour
New Member
Yes I just read something similar on the weeklystandard site. The transfer would come with 65 F18s and would pave the way for a potential win of the F18E/F in the Indian Air Force future fighter contest...
Now that would be a major hit for the Russian defence industry !!!
cheers
We will have to wait for Robrt gates visit to know the truth! Can't imagine IN having the budget for 65 F18's. In addition Kitty Hawk doesn't fit in to IN's 2020 plan of having 3 Carrier groups. Unless 4000 US sailors decide to take up Indian Citizenship, IN will difficulty in manning her for next 3 years.
In case KH offer is taken up by IN, it will be a political and strategic decision, which will define India's foreign policy for next half century. This is not an easy decision and GoI has to tread very carefully.
In another development Lockmart is bidding for the contract to build 7 P-17A Frigates for IN. They are tying up with India's L&T and Korea's Hundai. Aegis is on the offer.
I agree this is getting interesting. I think that weekly standard guy wrote his story after reading my blog, but I can't prove it. I said as much today. It doesn't matter.We will have to wait for Robrt gates visit to know the truth! Can't imagine IN having the budget for 65 F18's. In addition Kitty Hawk doesn't fit in to IN's 2020 plan of having 3 Carrier groups. Unless 4000 US sailors decide to take up Indian Citizenship, IN will difficulty in manning her for next 3 years.
In case KH offer is taken up by IN, it will be a political and strategic decision, which will define India's foreign policy for next half century. This is not an easy decision and GoI has to tread very carefully.
In another development Lockmart is bidding for the contract to build 7 P-17A Frigates for IN. They are tying up with India's L&T and Korea's Hundai. Aegis is on the offer.
The fighter purchase is for 200 fighters, so getting F/A-18s isn't the issue. The KH can be delivered well before the Gorskhov, and cheaper if the rumors we have heard the last several months are true.
The question is two fold. 1) As kams points out this would be a huge strategic shift, it is unclear if that is something India is ready to do. 2) The KH is much bigger than the Gorskhov, and would require larger crew requirements and have higher operational costs in the future.
However, there is no way someone can look at the Gorskhov and think this is a good deal at this point, that contract with Norway that Sevmash just tossed away was the largest commercial shipbuilding export contract in Russia. It is hard to say with an attitude like that that Russia would take the Gorskhov contract any more seriously.
Lockheed Martin is trying to sell the LCS for the Project 17 frigates. It is basically the same LCS package the US is offering India, as both use the same weapons (Barak).
contedicavour
New Member
What would become of the MIG29K deal for the Indian Navy though if the Kitty Hawk were transferred or leased ? The first 15 or so are firm orders, but not the follow-on 30+ ...
Russia may try to leverage its offer of a SSN for lease to the Indians to try to slow down / derail the Kitty Hawk deal.
It's going to be a very interesting weeks in front of us
cheers
Russia may try to leverage its offer of a SSN for lease to the Indians to try to slow down / derail the Kitty Hawk deal.
It's going to be a very interesting weeks in front of us
cheers
Umm, for next half century? Which individual procurement decision made around 1957 defined Indian foreign policy for the last half century? USS Kitty Hawk is a mighty ship, but it won't certainly last for a half century anymore. It has limited life left for it. For the rest of it's operational life IN would be tied to US supply chain, but that won't last for a half century...
The Migs can always wait and then serve on the Indigenous aircraft carriers. After all that is what the follow on 30+ were supposed to do.What would become of the MIG29K deal for the Indian Navy though if the Kitty Hawk were transferred or leased ? The first 15 or so are firm orders, but not the follow-on 30+ ...
Russia may try to leverage its offer of a SSN for lease to the Indians to try to slow down / derail the Kitty Hawk deal.
It's going to be a very interesting weeks in front of us
cheers
However, what will become of the indigenous aircraft carrier project? that is the more important "future" (at least more than the stop-gap, space-filler), if the 60-65 planes for the Kitty are in the Navy, where will they serve except the Kitty.
Can that be translated to a shore based existence post Kitty? that might work if the AF has the need for some
? or, will the planes be able to work off the short take off with limited loads, which might be a problem (as i guess having too many types on a single small carrier will only complicate things.)Russia may try to leverage for all things important to the modernization of the Navy and under construction.
Will that cause any other result except lost cash for Russia? After all they are not the only ones that will get the part of 45 billion dollar Indian military funds.
you meant
Israel -> barak-barak8-MF star
right o
I'm more interested in knowing if the Mig29K can be operated from the KH CATOBAR. Surely a slight modification to itslanding gear would allow it to use the launching by CATOBAR? Or is it not?
Only other major difference would be IN inability to operate fixed wing AEW, as they dont have them in the inventory.
Only other major difference would be IN inability to operate fixed wing AEW, as they dont have them in the inventory.
It should be easy to modify the Mig-29K for a cat shot since most of the stress on the airframe should be on the landing trap.
I´m sure the E-2 will fit in nicely for AEW. It's also used by the French.
Agreed, should be interesting. There are several things Russia can leverage here.Russia may try to leverage its offer of a SSN for lease to the Indians to try to slow down / derail the Kitty Hawk deal.
It's going to be a very interesting weeks in front of us
Yep, nice catch!
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