Indian Navy (IN) News and Discussion

[funtz]

I was reponding with the russians in mind.

We got a excellent deal.
In due time it will attain sub launch/Marine Patrol Aircraft launch, which is a very effective land attach and anti ship cruise missile.

And the Project set precedence for joint ventures with other foriegn firms, a very important thing in the coming decades, no ones going to have the money to go at it alone (except the americans they are made out of money).


Its not that its about the way you put it "only"- INS/FCS is a lot more than that, especially for a missile that had the project aim of being a land attack/anti ship missile, and matched the accuracy of any similar system out there. its almost half the job.

 

[kams]

The joint Russian-Indian venture BrahMos Aerospace Limited actively prepares for testing new versions of supersonic cruise missiles. Venture executive director Sivathanu Pilley said in an interview with Itar-Tass that it is provided by the year-end for making submarine-based launches of BrahMos cruises, while an air-based version of the missile will be tested in 2009.

According to Pilley who personally presented the brainchild of Russian and Indian defence researchers at the international exhibition DefExpo 2008, opened in New Delhi on Saturday, the question is now being tackled on creating a technological platform, necessary for submarine test launches of the BrahMos missiles.

It is probable that a Russian submarine will be used for this purpose. But a possibility is also scrutinized to install a cruise in a submarine of a new series from among those being acquired by the Indian navy.

"It has been already settled that the air-based version of BrahMos will be installed initially on a Tu-142 plane for testing," Pilley noted. "We plan to test possibilities of its use on Su-30MKI fighters in 2012."

The present and future of the joint venture, set up for R & D as well as marketing supersonic cruises in compliance with the intergovernmental agreement between Russia and India, signed in February 1998, are graphically depicted on the display BrahMos Aerospace Limited.

link

Posting the report about what I said earlier.

 

[Aliph Ahmed]

Mod edit:

being half smart will get you nowhere. Play by the rules, heed the multiple warnings you've already been given or your privilege (it's not a right...) to post on these forums will be removed.

There will be no further warnings. Step out of line again and you will join the banned list.

AD

 

[funtz]

With Israel going for LCS

During the nine-month combat system configuration phase, Lockheed Martin will examine the combat system performance of LCS-I using two different radar options:

- the advanced radar under development by Israeli Aircraft Industries (IAI)
(The MF-STAR)??

and Lockheed Martin’s SPY-1F radar. The team will examine the performance of these two radar options using the

- COMBATSS-21 combat management system integrated with the Israeli Navy Command and Control (IC2) system

and develop the technical architecture,

- high level specifications and estimated costs to integrate COMBATSS-21 with IC2 and multiple Israeli and U.S. sensor and weapon systems including the MK 41 Vertical Launch System (VLS),

- Typhoon gun and Barak missile.

Lockheed Martin is currently partnered with Rafael Armament Systems, Elbit Systems and Ness on LCS-I.

- The weapon systems aboard LCS-I include the STANDARD Missile 2, Harpoon and MK 32 torpedo tubes and selected Israeli Navy systems.

http://www.lmlcsteam.com/news.html
And Lock prepared to produce the Mk-41 VLS with L&T

Will it be cheaper to go with this, in a more customised config?

And with the sort of money spent on Submarines. It should make sense to make them as customised as possible before starting the construction (scorpions with Brahmos gives them some land attack capability only need is for a longer ranged missile). The second line of subs should include some longer ranged cruise missiles. That is the only thing that this could be.

 

[Grand Danois]

Aliph Ahmed,

You seem to have no other purpose than to aggrevate, and did not take heed of the notice to be more constructive in yuor posting.

2nd warning.


/GD

 

[Salty Dog]

I was reponding with the russians in mind.

We got a excellent deal.
In due time it will attain sub launch/Marine Patrol Aircraft launch, which is a very effective land attach and anti ship cruise missile.

And the Project set precedence for joint ventures with other foriegn firms, a very important thing in the coming decades, no ones going to have the money to go at it alone (except the americans they are made out of money).


Its not that its about the way you put it "only"- INS/FCS is a lot more than that, especially for a missile that had the project aim of being a land attack/anti ship missile, and matched the accuracy of any similar system out there. its almost half the job.

Joint venture projects will be the standard, especially for large defense projects.

The TATA Group has recently made joint venture agreements with Boeing to locally manufacture aircraft components for P-8, CH-47, AH-64, and F/A-18E/F aircraft should these deals come through. Tata currently provides structural components for the Boeing 787 Dreamliner.

Tata also recently signed joint venture agreements with the Israeli IAI to produce drones, radars, and electronic warfare systems.

Bottom line is that without joint venture, future defense projects will have less chance of success.

 

[kams]

Bottom line is that without joint venture, future defense projects will have less chance of success.

It's about risk sharing, when one doesn't have infinite resources and indefinite time. However when pvt. companies only resort to joint ventures, original research and innovation gets killed. At the same time Indian Pvt' companies can't afford to get in to these mega projects alone.

In case of India one can only hope that these joint ventures will give these pvt. companies the exposure and financial muscle to stand on their own eventually.

 

[funtz]

It is more about setting up a competitive industry that offers enough opportunities to hire and retain talent.

Which will only work when the government specifies certain equipment can only be acquired from these firms (small arms, artillery guns, transportation vehicles etc. etc.), the sheer amount of the equipment required in-house will take care of the rest.

For example the INSAS firearm has tremendous capacity in several state police departments, as soon as it the modernization requests are processed and funds alloted (which is phew.... a long never ending exercise in pushing files one babbu at a time), it sure is funny however that this is the only product available which never had any competition, similarly the need for specialized transport vehicles of various types.

However every body generally ranks the India Navy high on the gradual shift and encouragement of the domestic industry.
Why is that so?

 

[kams]

However every body generally ranks the India Navy high on the gradual shift and encouragement of the domestic industry.
Why is that so?

IN is only branch of Indian armed forces which has it's own design branch and hass been pushing for indigenization from long. It imports due to capacity constraints within Indian shipyards. Look how they have taken up the N-LCA.

 

[Aliph Ahmed]

I was reponding with the russians in mind.

We got a excellent deal.
In due time it will attain sub launch/Marine Patrol Aircraft launch, which is a very effective land attach and anti ship cruise missile.

And the Project set precedence for joint ventures with other foriegn firms, a very important thing in the coming decades, no ones going to have the money to go at it alone (except the americans they are made out of money).

I got my answer for why Russia refused to Induct the Brahmos : The Russian constitution does not allow any military equipment to be inducted unless it is completely made in Russia.

Contribution of the Indians with respect to Brahmos is only INS and FCS. Everything else is Russian.

Nonetheless, a good knowledgebale experience for the Indians.

 

[funtz]

- Its a matter of convenience.

- If the constitutional amendment barring usage of all joint venture is true, the implications on the upcoming medium transport agreement (Russia has a need of 100-160), and the PAK-FA will be immense, i/e Russians wont be able to buy them, either, and they need them as bad as we do. These things can be changed or used depending on the situation.

- As I said before, the last thing Russia needs is another cruise missile, they already had the P-800, and this project ensured that they improved on some older tech while keeping the older missile frame/engine. Which was A very safe approach to start the up coming decades of Joint ventures, and India is a relatively risk free opinion (of the very few available).

- BrahMos company itself will keep on coming out with future products with shared profits; the requirement for the BrahMos in the Indian Army and Navy must have been very profitable.

BrahMos itself is no magic missile; Marketing is a very important aspect which has to be exploited to the maximum value. It is just a missile that’s all, goes from point A to point B and hits the object it’s supposed to hit, it has been doing that till now in all the tests giving the Indian military supreme confidence in its ability which is the most important thing.
However the only real test are combat conditions, and well I hope that never happens.

 

[funtz]

IN is only branch of Indian armed forces which has it's own design branch and hass been pushing for indigenization from long. It imports due to capacity constraints within Indian shipyards. Look how they have taken up the N-LCA.

IN is only branch of Indian armed forces which has it's own design branch and hass been pushing for indigenization from long. It imports due to capacity constraints within Indian shipyards. Look how they have taken up the N-LCA.

Ya! followed up on some information on that.


However while doing that this came across as very strange.

-Foxtrot class: trial/training:

- Shishumar class (HDW 209/1500): (86, 92,94), at their mid life stage?

- Sindugosh (KILO) class:
877EKM (86-91)
Type 636 (97-2000)
INS Sindhushastra INS Sindhurakshak- Were They Klub-S capable at delivery and how did the tests went back then? Any indications, reports etc.
And INS Sindhuvijay was the second last submarine undergoing refit, to be followed by INS Sindhukirti, so what happened to the rest of them, in regards with the now controversial Klub missile system.

-Scorpene SSK: 2012-17

- The upcoming second line of subs, customized for the Indian Navy.

- ATV, the home grown (at a leisurely pace) nuclear Submarines.
- SSN?
- SSBN
Or will the SSN be the Akulas for the time being?

- Akula-II

These seem to be a tremendous amount of submarine types, for what period of time will the different types serve together in the Navy (guess-timation), considering that these sub surface killers have to be very technologically advanced to stay relevant, how much of a problem will that be logistically?

Why are the Akula’s not in India? Lack of funds/Price negotiation the Usual Indo-Russian games or does it take this much of time to do these things?

1/26/2002: INDIA TO LEASE TWO RUSSIAN NUCLEAR SUBMARINES
Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Navy Admiral Vladimir Kuroyedov has announced that Russia plans to lease two nuclear submarines to India. The statement was made during his visit to the Amurskiy Shipyard in late January 2002. The shipyard is constructing the first submarine India would lease -- the Nerpa, a Shchuka B-class [NATO name 'Akula II'] nuclear-powered attack submarine (SSN). The second submarine, the Kuguar, is being constructed in the Sevmash facility in Severodvinsk. India will provide Russia with financing to complete construction of the two SSNs, while Russia will train four Indian submarine crews and provide India with the submarines for five years, beginning in 2004.

http://www.nti.org/db/nisprofs/russia/naval/nucflt/pacflt/amur.htm

 

[kams]

HDW are due for MLU this year. Lockmart is one of the companies bidding for the upgrade contract. Looks like it as an open tender, not limited to OEM.

 

[nevidimka]

Aircraft Carrier May Go to Russian Navy
The aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov will be delivered to the Russian Navy instead of going to India after modernization. A source within the Russian military-industrial complex told RBK that Russia and India are now reaching an agreement on changing the conditions of the 2004 contract for the ship's overhaul. Under that contract, India received the hull without charge on condition that it be modernized at Sevmashpredpriyatie. The value of that contract was $1.5 billion.
According to unofficial information, negotiations are currently underway to expand the value of the contract by about $1 billion. “That question is being worked out. If a compromise is not found with India, the aircraft carrier will probably be purchased by the Russian Navy,” the source said.

The Admiral Gorshkov was built in 1978 as the Baku. Its name was changed in 1991. It will be equipped with Russian-Indian Bramos missiles and Russian or Israeli air defense systems after modernization.

http://www.kommersant.com/p-12082/r_527/

 

[kams]

Aircraft Carrier May Go to Russian Navy


http://www.kommersant.com/p-12082/r_527/

Not going to happen. India will pay the extra dinero and take it. IN simply can't afford to let Vikramadiya slip through their hands.

 

[Galrahn]

Not going to happen. India will pay the extra dinero and take it. IN simply can't afford to let Vikramadiya slip through their hands.

I'm not sure I buy that completely, I think there are still a lot of things that can happen. Keep in mind the difference in price is close to $600 million. That is a lot of money.

For $600 million, India could get the Kitty Hawk much faster than the Gorshkov, and the Kitty Hawk is in pretty good condition. I still think that is an ace card that India may play in negotiations. While a lot of people assume the multi-role fighter deal is all but done with Russia, I think these two issues can easily become one in the same.

The Gorshkov is barely being worked on, the work force has almost entirely moved indoors for the winter to work on the new submarines. With the Russias offer of $1.2 billion for delivery in 4 years, and potentially higher cost if they add shakedown costs, this deal is beginning to look really dumb on paper if indeed the Kitty Hawk is an alternative as has been rumored.

That doesn't even include the bad reputation on quality Russia is piling up in current arms deals. If you note one similarity about the bad quality discussions, in all cases, the most recent being Algeria, the equipment sold was cold war era restored sales. Exactly what the Gorshkov is.

 

[Firehorse]

If the Gorshkov get recomissioned into RFN, most likely it will be stationed in Vladivostok, with the Pac. Fleet. And as they get new CVs built, this older carrier may end up being sold to China! Besides the Kitty Hawk option, I wonder how much $ would be needed to bring already decomissioned & very similar JFK (CV-67) up to speed?

 

[Galrahn]

I wonder how much $ would be needed to bring already decomissioned & very similar JFK (CV-67) up to speed?

A ton of money, that ship is in bad shape.

 

[Firehorse]

If they get CV-63, it would make sense to get CV-67 just for parts!

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

I'm not sure I buy that completely, I think there are still a lot of things that can happen. Keep in mind the difference in price is close to $600 million. That is a lot of money.

For $600 million, India could get the Kitty Hawk much faster than the Gorshkov, and the Kitty Hawk is in pretty good condition. I still think that is an ace card that India may play in negotiations. While a lot of people assume the multi-role fighter deal is all but done with Russia, I think these two issues can easily become one in the same.

The Gorshkov is barely being worked on, the work force has almost entirely moved indoors for the winter to work on the new submarines. With the Russias offer of $1.2 billion for delivery in 4 years, and potentially higher cost if they add shakedown costs, this deal is beginning to look really dumb on paper if indeed the Kitty Hawk is an alternative as has been rumored.

That doesn't even include the bad reputation on quality Russia is piling up in current arms deals. If you note one similarity about the bad quality discussions, in all cases, the most recent being Algeria, the equipment sold was cold war era restored sales. Exactly what the Gorshkov is.

I agree this is a possibility. If the price goes up again to about $2bn then this may be too much for the indians to take. The RFN should be pleased with the addition of annother carrier to its orbat, it will provide a level of persistance they have not enjoyed since '93 (assuming Kuznetov and Gorshkov are maintained properly).

As for the kitty hawk option that is a big big call. It may be in decent nick at the moment but it will be an order of magnitude more expensive, complex, maintinance intenceive and harder to protect than the Viraat. They'd be going from a helicopter carrer with harriers to a 3 cat, 80 000t supercarrier! Thats like going from crawling to competeing in the 100m sprint overnight. The kitty hawk is overkill. Too big, to complex, too expenseive, to maintinance intenceive and a waste unless you equip it with a comperable air group which means 50+ aircraft. To be honest i would be astounded if the indians bought Kitty Hawk, even if she is for sale.

If Gorshov falls through i would expect the Viraat would jut sbe kept in service for annother 4~6 years untill it is replaced by the Vikrant class CV. IIRC steel has already been layed down, they may want to build annother one sooner rather than later.