India's MBT: Arjun and its standing among Tanks

[kay_man]

hmmmm

i was just wondering,isnt a riffled gun better than a smooth bore?

1. the riffled gun will fire a shell in the same way an artillery gun would and a smoothbore ammo will require fins to stabilize ......which i think are are more influenced by wind conditions

2.also the riffling in the main gun increases the pressure in the gun and allows for more muzzle velocity

3. also the durability issues hav been solved on the arjun gun with some chrome lining or somthing

SO HOW DOES THE ARJUN GUN COMPARE WITH THE 120 MM SMOOTHBORE GUNS AVAILABLE , THE L-55 etc

ALSO WHY ARE THE WESTERNERS UTILIZING GUN FIRED MISSLES ..it would help range and accuracy n't it?????

am i right or wrong/????????


ok , about earlier messages

im not disgracing anything or anybody,
i was comparing arjun to al-k and type 99 coz they hav entered service at nealy the same time....the other tanks are a bit elder and hav evolved considerably
i wasnt saying al-k is bad tank, in fact i hav said tht its a good tank and can be mass produced....a good decision .....havent i....i dont mean to be biased

but ill make sure to keep my comments more general fron now on

 

[kay_man]

heheheh

just wondering ....u guys hav been here much longer than me.....how many warning messages hav u guys got????

 

[Chrom]

i was just wondering,isnt a riffled gun better than a smooth bore?

1. the riffled gun will fire a shell in the same way an artillery gun would and a smoothbore ammo will require fins to stabilize ......which i think are are more influenced by wind conditions

2.also the riffling in the main gun increases the pressure in the gun and allows for more muzzle velocity

3. also the durability issues hav been solved on the arjun gun with some chrome lining or somthing

SO HOW DOES THE ARJUN GUN COMPARE WITH THE 120 MM SMOOTHBORE GUNS AVAILABLE , THE L-55 etc

All these questions was already diskussed in this very same thread.

 

[funtz]

just wondering ....u guys hav been here much longer than me.....how many warning messages hav u guys got????

I think i have been warned 1-3 times in 2 months, doing my best increase the number, well what will you know- might even be warned for typing this.

anywho

All these questions was already discussed in this very same thread.

I know Chrom this is a problem as thread become so huge that it is humanly impossible to go through it, any one who will join in will state the same things.

I think in threads that are going to discuss a platform, the commonly agreed specs by the more enlightened should become "sticky".

 

[swerve]

i was just wondering,isnt a riffled gun better than a smooth bore?

1. the riffled gun will fire a shell in the same way an artillery gun would and a smoothbore ammo will require fins to stabilize ......which i think are are more influenced by wind conditions

2.also the riffling in the main gun increases the pressure in the gun and allows for more muzzle velocity

3. also the durability issues hav been solved on the arjun gun with some chrome lining or somthing
...

I suggest a little reading. Tony Williams (a true expert in this field) has an excellent site, if you're interested in hard information presented without adornment ( http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/ ), & I particularly recommend the page entitled "Basic Ballistics"
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/ballistics.htm

There's lots more out there. e.g.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_energy_penetrator
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m829a1.htm

 

[kay_man]

hmmmmmm

I suggest a little reading. Tony Williams (a true expert in this field) has an excellent site, if you're interested in hard information presented without adornment ( http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/ ), & I particularly recommend the page entitled "Basic Ballistics"
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/ballistics.htm

There's lots more out there. e.g.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_energy_penetrator
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m829a1.htm

i read the huge ammount of info u posted and thx for tht

but most of it is about ammo......i wanted about the guns

anyway could any1 cut it down fot me in simple english....range muzzle velocity and lenght and penetration power

 

[Thery]

i read the huge ammount of info u posted and thx for tht

but most of it is about ammo......i wanted about the guns

anyway could any1 cut it down fot me in simple english....range muzzle velocity and lenght and penetration power

The info others gave you already answer your question. Here is more info from Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoothbore

The cannon, in the form of the tank gun, has made the transition from smoothbore to rifled and is moving back to smoothbore. To reliably penetrate the thick armor of modern armored vehicles, a very long, thin kinetic energy projectile is required. The longer the projectile is in relation to its diameter, the higher the twist rate must be to provide stability. Practical rifling can only stabilize projectiles of a certain length to diameter ratio, and these modern rounds are just too long. These rounds are instead formed into a dart shape, using fins for stabilization (see kinetic energy penetrator for information on how this works). With the fins for stability, rifling is no longer needed and in fact the spin imparted by rifling will degrade the accuracy of a finned projectile. Because of the increasing use of the highly effective kinetic energy penetrator projectiles by tank guns, many modern tanks have smoothbore barrels.

Moreover rifled gun also reduce the effectiveness of HEAT rounds.

Rifled gun perform better when use HESH round, but since HEAT and APFSDS rounds are use more often so most tanks use smoothbore now a days. Even British is switch to smoothbore gun. This does not mean any smoothbore gun is automatic better than any rifled gun. It only means smoothbore design is more fit to the current battle environment if every other factor stay same.

 

[funtz]

just wondering ....u guys hav been here much longer than me.....how many warning messages hav u guys got????

As a friendly word of advice man, you are doing the mistakes that will get you banned, there are really some well informed people here (and i am really uninformed about most things, as you can obviously see), who know a lot about things, that is why even i don't go all patriotic around here, try to get them into answering all that puzzles (and i am puzzled a lot) you about military technology and affairs and they will tell you a lot.

However if you end up banned, thats not much good is it?

hope you understand, really not trying to diss you.

I could have sent you a PM however that is only allowed after 50 or so posts.

 

[kay_man]

As a friendly word of advice man, you are doing the mistakes that will get you banned, there are really some well informed people here (and i am really uninformed about most things, as you can obviously see), who know a lot about things, that is why even i don't go all patriotic around here, try to get them into answering all that puzzles (and i am puzzled a lot) you about military technology and affairs and they will tell you a lot.

However if you end up banned, thats not much good is it?

hope you understand, really not trying to diss you.

I could have sent you a PM however that is only allowed after 50 or so posts.

thanks buddy,

im new here so im bound to make some mistake ...we all live and learn
and im learning quickly

 

[kay_man]

The info others gave you already answer your question. Here is more info from Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoothbore





Moreover rifled gun also reduce the effectiveness of HEAT rounds.

Rifled gun perform better when use HESH round, but since HEAT and APFSDS rounds are use more often so most tanks use smoothbore now a days. Even British is switch to smoothbore gun. This does not mean any smoothbore gun is automatic better than any rifled gun. It only means smoothbore design is more fit to the current battle environment if every other factor stay same.

thx dude,
could u plzz post the stats regarding the armaments of arjun in comparison with abrams and chlly 2 and leo 2.....just on the gun tht is

 

[gf0012-aust]

thx dude,
could u plzz post the stats regarding the armaments of arjun in comparison with abrams and chlly 2 and leo 2.....just on the gun tht is

One of the things we expect of people is to make an effort on the obvious side of the ledger.

eg, do some research of your own before asking others to provide you with answers. it makes you look lazy, or as though you are attempting to fast track your post count.

you need to pay attention to funtz, he just gave you some cogent advice.

 

[swerve]

thx dude,
could u plzz post the stats regarding the armaments of arjun in comparison with abrams and chlly 2 and leo 2.....just on the gun tht is

kay_man,

might be wise to have a look at the rules, particularly rule 18 -

http://defencetalk.com/forums/rules.php

Makes life easier for everyone else, you understand.

 

[suryaaa]

Well since the advisory part is over can we get back to the topic.It seems like our ministry at present is not intrested in field trials of arjun.So i think we will have to wait a bit long for the complete stat of arjun and its future in army.But hey lets hope that army likes arjun,as others have said its important that army should get some flexibility in their armory and they way they tune themselves for the future weapons.

 

[kay_man]

Well since the advisory part is over can we get back to the topic.It seems like our ministry at present is not intrested in field trials of arjun.So i think we will have to wait a bit long for the complete stat of arjun and its future in army.But hey lets hope that army likes arjun,as others have said its important that army should get some flexibility in their armory and they way they tune themselves for the future weapons.

the army definately likes the arjun....its more comfortable , more user friendly etc etc.
but unfortunately in our country the army is not directly in charge of the purchases it has to report its requirements to the mod and the MoD decides which is the best buy.
so though the arjun is liked by the army guys the MoD favours the t-90 bcoz it is technologically advanced and comes at a much lower costs and along with tht IT IS HELPING BILATERAL RELATIONS WITH RUSSIA....MAYBE BCOZ OF THIS PURCHASE THE RUSSKIES MAY PITCH MORE ADAVANCED ITEMS IN INDIA...

 

[gf0012-aust]

2nd Warning issued:

You have been told multiple times by a number of Mods:

Do NOT type in uppercase - it is akin to yelling - its in the Forum Rules.

Do NOT use abbreviated english - make the effort to type your posts properly. - it's in the Forum Rules

any further infractions and you will be banned for a month.

the army definately likes the arjun....its more comfortable , more user friendly etc etc.
but unfortunately in our country the army is not directly in charge of the purchases it has to report its requirements to the mod and the MoD decides which is the best buy.
so though the arjun is liked by the army guys the MoD favours the t-90 bcoz it is technologically advanced and comes at a much lower costs and along with tht IT IS HELPING BILATERAL RELATIONS WITH RUSSIA....MAYBE BCOZ OF THIS PURCHASE THE RUSSKIES MAY PITCH MORE ADAVANCED ITEMS IN INDIA...

 

[Chrom]

You know, when IA orders another 360 tanks from Russia just when Arjuns said to be completely ready - well, you realise something is wrong with Arjun - we just dont know what :nutkick

 

[funtz]

Yes, well the argument of the combined cost factor is very solid still, is the overall cost of induction considered a problem, i think so a major one at that.

MoD sources said the additional cost of ammunition, spares and engineering support to serially produce two Arjun regiments over the next five years would ultimately push each MBT's cost to around US $4.7 to $5.3 million, reportedly far higher than the price for the T-90S MBT.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Arjun.html

OMG that is serious money, can make a lot of Indians really happy for the rest of their lives.

 

[n21]

You know, when IA orders another 360 tanks from Russia just when Arjuns said to be completely ready - well, you realise something is wrong with Arjun - we just dont know what :nutkick

Cant it be possible due to matter of simple mathematics of the time required to replace 2500+ T72's & older tanks with Arjun @ 50-70/year?

Do you think any army is gonna wait for 25 years to complete it's armor upgrade?
IA ordered additional T-90s,as Arjun production alone can never provide the required numbers nor the infrastructure can be set up so fast.

It is not necessary that whatever steps IA takes for armour upgrade is a proof that there is a fault with Arjun.

 

[kay_man]

Cant it be possible due to matter of simple mathematics of the time required to replace 2500+ T72's & older tanks with Arjun @ 50-70/year?

Do you think any army is gonna wait for 25 years to complete it's armor upgrade?
IA ordered additional T-90s,as Arjun production alone can never provide the required numbers nor the infrastructure can be set up so fast.

It is not necessary that whatever steps IA takes for armour upgrade is a proof that there is a fault with Arjun.

i fully agree with n21,
before the t-90 purchase the indian army had almost 1500 t-55 and vijayanta(vickers mk4) tanks which are very obsolete( anitoques lolz).

and almost 1700 t-72 m1 tanks that were not only one generation behind today's mbts but were aeging quickly.

so the t-90 purchase is a sensible quick fix to upgrade the armoured core.
at present tha IA is fairly well equipt with 1000 t-90 and and around 300 c.i. ajeya. the remaining t-72 m1 are either being upgraded to phased out.

there is nothing wrong with arjun, but the production line cannot produce them in enough numbers in time. also there are quality control issues on some of the parts

 

[funtz]

More developments on Arjun Mk-II
old report to the parliament about the Arjun, could not find it posted here, and i would imagine that this would be the real deal, so here are the links
edited out the 'blah-blah'.

Indian MoD outlines roadmap for MBT Arjun, Mark II in pipeline
Written on November 2, 2007 – 9:33 am | by FIDSNS |

As per the 14th parliamentary report of 2006 - 2007, Arjun Tank Mark - II production will be taken up after the successful completion of the first order of 124 Arjun tanks order.

“MBT Arjun is a 60 tonne class battle tank with state of the art optro-electronic power-packed control system, weapon management system and high performance suspension. It is a product unique in its class specifically configured for Indian Army requirement.

However, it is important to know that MBT Arjun had a cost of Rs 17.20 crore per system from the production line. It is understood that T-90 tank is costing approximately Rs. 12 crore.

MBT Arjun firing accuracy is far superior to other two tanks. It has a second generation thermal imager and can engage targets at 2500 meters. Its 1400 hp engine ensures excellent mobility performance. It has capability to fire Laser Homing Anti Tank (LAHAT) missile from the barrel of the gun.

The ministry replied “Indigenous Gunner’s Main Sight (IGMS) is an integrated gyro-stabilized sight consisting of thermal imager, laser range finder, and day sight with inbuilt fire control computer for ballistic computation. This system enables the crew of the tank to engage targets under static and dynamic conditions by day and night with enhanced hit probability.

source:
http://frontierindia.net/indian-mod-outlines-roadmap-for-mbt-arjun-mark-ii-in-pipeline/

Some more old info

Arjun Mk2 - The Futuristic MBT
Written on June 25, 2007 – 10:12 am | by FIDSNS |

BFMS will provide information to tank commanders at different levels. This could network with helicopters or UAV’s too. The BFMS will give the geographical location of the terrain, location of our own troops, location of enemy targets, illuminate targets, help navigation, display the health of tanks, status of ammunition holding in the tank, fuel stock etc.

As the imaging technology improves, Arjun MBT will feature an “Auto Tracker.” The auto tracker is a system based on image processing. As the gunner sight is fixed on a target, a picture analysis takes place. When the target moves, the Arjun Tank gun and the sight gets aligned with the target and move automatically keeping the target in focus.

This is particularly good in cross country, when target is moving, Arjun Tank might go through bumps or twists or turns for maneuvering, but the auto tracker will not loose the sight of the target.

The Arjun MBT turret is a heavy mass of approximately 16- 20 tons and gun mass is about approximately 2 tons. To stabilize the turret and gun is a difficult task. Currently Arjun Tank uses something called “director mode” .The top mirror of the gunner sight of Arjun Tank is independently stabilized. A computer evaluates the elevation of both top mirror and the gun as well as the angle of the turret. There is a continuous feeding of these parameters into the computer; the computer gives electronic instructions to the gun control system.

Hence the Arjun Tank gunner sight is in the middle of the target even in the cross country environment. If momentarily the gun is misaligned, the firing circuit does not open and the gunner is not able to fire. Whether Arjun MBT is static, target is static or Arjun MBT is static, target is moving or Arjun MBT is moving, target is static or both Arjun MBT and target are moving; The Arjun Tank firing accuracy remains more or less the same, and achieves a very high level of accuracy.

Defensive aid like Shotra system for Arjun Tank is getting developed. An 81mm Anti-laser and Anti-thermal Screening Smoke Grenade is also going to be featured.

The Lahat missile’s laser designator module will be integrated into fire control computer.

There will not be any revolutionary physical changes on the Arjun MBT platform.

http://frontierindia.net/arjun-mk2-the-futuristic-mbt/

So DRDO will push forward with the developments on the Arjun, The Army should go for more tanks now and show more faith in the platform, even though they might use 1000~1500 T-90s, As is mentioned in the above link the Army projects a requirement of

“Total requirements of Army is about 3500 tanks."

There is still a lot of room for Arjun, especially to gradually replace T-72s.