Arms race: Greece & Turkey

[fantasma]

If Greece lack money whats next? Definitely not PUMA if money is the issue? We can sell you guys some ACV-300s if you really need something .

thanks for your gratitude belegnfloorl: nfloorl: nfloorl: nfloorl: To be honest here i really do not know what in the hell these people who are in charge have their heads filled with...brain substance i doubt, shit is the most profound. I totally agree with what Waylander has said right above. The Marder case was a cheap and trully reliable solution. Except they want to pay billions of euros and invest in Puma or other armoured vehicle and they save the money for it. I just wonder why they want to put so much amount of money on an armoured vehicle when a mixture of solution could save much money to be directed to other crucial needs. If they dont want to spent any eurocent the other case is to remain with the reliablenfloorl: nfloorl: M-113 to accompany the Leo 2A6..

Fantasma , today i have read an article which claimed Turkey may open a war to Greece this summer ( lmao ) in balkanalysis site.. Written by a Greek author.. I wonder if this has found its way to general media and audience or is it just the blind perspective of the author himself.

As about this who is the author? Could you provide me the link so i can read it too. My personal and general view here is that Turkey is at a very difficult political and paradox situation. From the one side the Kemalists, Generals, who conform the westerners but from time to time (once in a decade they make a coup a la Tourca) and from the Islamists whose today in the eyes of Europeans Americans seem to be more moderate from Kemalists and a power of changing things.

Islamists want more ties with Europe and from the other side they bring the scarf. Kemalists who control justice, army, economy feel threatened. Islamists are trying to gain ground and gradually are founding enterprices with capital from the middle east. In this battle for power in Turkey there is also the case of the PKK rebels who make assaults inside Turkey and then retreat to northern Iraq. Kurds of northern Iraq are planning with the help of the Americans Israelis etc to establish in the near future an independent state.

Turkey considers it a mortal danger that it could lead in the future the Kurds of Turkey who are the majority in the southeastern areas of Turkey to follow the model of Kossovo, and final unite these area with northern Iraq. Turkey would love to invade to fight PKK but the trully reason is the fear of an independent Northern Iraq. Americans do not let them so and because of their refusal might "create" a mini crisis on their "western front" towards Cyprus (see the oil case in southern Cyprus) or to Aegean create a crisis like the Imia/Kardak.

As i see it the rift between Kemalists/ Islamists grows and a mini crisis in the west or in the east could unify the country against a common enemy. A mini crisis yes maybe is to easy to be created in the Aegean front. The question is will the Generals try it in order to gain political advantage for the Kemalist parties against Islamists. And if this crisis may happen could this time remain under control without leading to a direct conflict? These scenarios play and from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Greek Generals are watching carefully these issues.

 

[beleg]

For AAW I actually expected Turkey to use ESSM and SM2, so I didn't hope too much for interest in FREMM. Milgem is very likely to be a successful light frigate, but building a DDG or large FFG afterwards may require 10 years from now. That's a long time. May be some help from German or Spanish shipyards could accelerate things.
On the LPD, I certainly hope cooperation is possible. The Italian MOD isn't giving the green light to building our 4th LPD until Fincantier can find sufficient common ground between Italian and Turkey's requirements... Do you have any link in Turkey's press to the exact requirement (LPD, LHD, tonnage, hangar or not...) ?

cheers

They are already working on the future FFG , at least on paper. With the modernization of ex-Perries , and Mekos (soon) we can still keep going for another decade. I wouldn't mind 2-3 de Bazaan though

For the LPD the ship is supposed to carry a battalion with its own logistical means.I dont know the details , maybe orko_8 can help.

 

[swerve]

Kemalists who control justice, army, economy feel threatened. Islamists are trying to gain ground and gradually are founding enterprices with capital from the middle east.

False assumption there, I think. The growth in Islamist-controlled businesses isn't fuelled by capital from outside, but by the mobilisation of capital within the country. Look at the Islamist businessmen, & you mostly see long-established small businesses which have grown organically into middle-sized firms, & middling firms which have grown into big ones. It's a result of the spreading of prosperity into the conservative provincial cities & towns, a weakening of the dominance of the secular, Westernised Istanbul economic elite. In itself, the reduction of Istanbuls dominance is a good thing, & not all the businessmen in the provincial cities & small towns are Islamist. I met some a few years ago who were distinctly Western in outlook.

[Edit] This was in and around Bartin. Pleasant little town.

 

[fantasma]

False assumption there, I think. The growth in Islamist-controlled businesses isn't fuelled by capital from outside, but by the mobilisation of capital within the country. Look at the Islamist businessmen, & you mostly see long-established small businesses which have grown organically into middle-sized firms, & middling firms which have grown into big ones. It's a result of the spreading of prosperity into the conservative provincial cities & towns, a weakening of the dominance of the secular, Westernised Istanbul economic elite. In itself, the reduction of Istanbuls dominance is a good thing, & not all the businessmen in the provincial cities & small towns are Islamist. I met some a few years ago who were distinctly Western in outlook.

Maybe faulse partly. Part of the capital is fuelled by inside and a part frOm outside from the middleeast. Maybe our friend beleg can provide in this issue his thoughts and perspectives. He is an "insider"

 

[beleg]

re fantasma:
I'll pm you the article.

There is no military or strategic advantage for Turkey when we are trying to deal with a trouble in east , to create one in west. IMO history has shown the opposite. When Turkey has focused on PKK & Syria problem Greece has created Kardak crisis, at least this is how its seen on this side of Aegean. I am sure you guys think totally opposite. Saying we , Turks created this , but again in terms of strategy and military this would be a stupid thing to do. We were threatening Syria with war and a front with Greece would be the last thing on our minds.

Well if they wanted to create a mini crisis , Iraq is a better target. Since we are only making hypothesis here, enter Iraq as deep as 10-15 km, until we secure the peaks and form a buffer zone. We will only meet PKK forces. Even the Barzani forces are not very crowded in these regions near our border, they prefer to avoid conflict with the terrorists. Such an operation in Iraq will unite the country faster than a problem with Greece for the time being.

 

[beleg]

Well swerve has a point. It is gossiped that the government has helped enterprises with similar political views to have competitive advantages over others. I don't know how true this is but Turkish economy is growing in most areas and i think all sectors are affected from it regardless of their political views. Maybe some more and some less..

swerve, you are correct, Turkey doesn't have so many Islamists as most would believe. Most of Turkish people are rather conservatives, similar to Christian Democrats of Europe. In outlook they look Western, their thoughts are open to democratic and economic values of the West.

AKP officially denies its Islamic roots and claims its a conservative party not an Islamic one. IMO This is unfortunately only a political message , the critical leaders of the party are ex-Islamists. And some of their actions prove that they have not forgotten their pasts. However the people who vote for them are mostly conservatives who were tired of old conservative politicians who were expert robbers..

 

[fantasma]

July 11, 2007 (by Lieven Dewitte) - The Peace Onyx III F-16 modernization program kicked off at TUSAS Aerospace Industries (TAI) with the arrival of the first four F-16s at their facilities on 2 July 2007.

The preparation activities between the Turkish Air Force (TUAF), Lockheed Martin and TAI have been completed.

The Peace Onyx III program will create a robust, common avionics configuration for Turkey's fleets of F-16 block 40 and block 50 aircraft.

The configuration being integrated consists of the APG-68(V)9 multimode radar (currently being installed on new Advanced block 50/52 F-16s), color cockpit displays and recorders, new core avionics processors, the Joint Helmet-Mounted Cueing System, Link 16 data link, advanced interrogator/transponder, integrated precision navigation, a unique electronic warfare system, and compatibility with a number of new weapons and targeting systems.

Lockheed Martin is the principal contractor for the program. Tasks include the development effort, kit accumulation, technical assistance for kit installation, upgrades to pilot training systems, and logistics support and training. The baseline program includes kits for 37 Block 30s, 76 Block 50s and four Block 40s. There is an option for 100 more Block 40 kits.
Kit installation will be performed by TUSAS Aerospace Industries with technical assistance from Lockheed Martin

Last May, Turkey signed a $1.78 billion deal today to buy another 30 F-16 Fighting Falcons from Lockheed Martin. As a continuation of the previous F-16 programs, this sale is named Peace Onyx 4.
http://www.f-16.net/news_article2421.html

 

[beleg]

Although this is not a Tr-Gr related matter i want to post this here. Turkish Airforce has sent 6 F-16s from 132. Hancer Sq. and 2 KC-135s from 101. Asena Sq. to Join Red Flag in Alaska. TuAF has joined Red Flag Nellis twice before. This is the first time in Alaska i believe. 132 is the Weapons and Tactics sq. of Turkish Airforce and flies with both F-16s and F-4E2020s. TuAF F-16s will probably be the aggressors like in previous exercises. Will we see another "Tango-1 Never Dies" patch?

Pictures can be found at TuAFs official website.
http://www.hvkk.tsk.mil.tr/Turkce/Faaliyetler/uatatbikat/RedFlag/RedFlag_2007.html

 

[beleg]

Another good news,
Turkish Coast Guard and Turkish Navy's Meltem II & III Maritime Surveillance and Patrol Aircraft projects are going on well. First aircraft of Meltem II project a CN-235 CASA has successfully completed its maiden flight. The project uses Thales's AMASCOS system , including a FLIR and Ocean Master Radar to conduct its duty. And on Meltem III project the first of ATR-72s is going to fly end of this year and delivered in 09.

With the addition of these aircraft and the cutters , Turkish Coastguard will increase its efficiency against smuggling and human trafficking which is a serious threat in Eastern Med and Aegean. The platforms will also increase the SAR capabilities of Turkey.

Navy's platforms will increase the situational awareness of Turkish Navy on all 3 seas, and when Far Horizon , Peace Eagle AEW&CC and MALE UAVs enter service (approximately at the same time) Turkish Navy will know everything thats on the sea even when they are behind a rock.

 

[nero]

nope

Ok let's try to steer this closer to the thread's topic

Any news on the following procurement programmes ?
> Typhoon acquisition by Greece
> AAW FFG/DDG programmes by Greece and Turkey

cheers

.
No news on greece acquiring the typhoons yet.

but turkey is fast pulling ahead of greece in the arms race.

very soon this is going to be a one-sided contest in favour of turkey.

it seems to me that turkey is trying to conquer CYPRUS, the same way china is planning to conquer taiwan.

what's dissapointig is that most NATO natoins r backing turkey & not greece.


.

 

[Waylander]

What makes you think that?

 

[contedicavour]

.
No news on greece acquiring the typhoons yet.

but turkey is fast pulling ahead of greece in the arms race.

very soon this is going to be a one-sided contest in favour of turkey.

it seems to me that turkey is trying to conquer CYPRUS, the same way china is planning to conquer taiwan.

what's dissapointig is that most NATO natoins r backing turkey & not greece.


.

Actually both countries are restraining defence purchases lately vs the peak reached at the end of the '90s. True, Greece is restraining more than Turkey. However Turkey will slow down in reality because it requires some time to make its national programmes work (building Milgem from scratch for instance will take some time).

cheers

 

[beleg]

I don't see us restraining for now.. All procurement projects which were delayed in late 90s due to economical crisis have started or will start shortly..

ATAK Helo- T-129,
MİTUP Tank- XT-2 (?)
MiLGEM
Utility Helo - S70(?)
Peace Onyx CCIP & 30 more F-16s
LPD

 

[fantasma]

I don't see us restraining for now.. All procurement projects which were delayed in late 90s due to economical crisis have started or will start shortly..

ATAK Helo- T-129,
MİTUP Tank- XT-2 (?)
MiLGEM
Utility Helo - S70(?)
Peace Onyx CCIP & 30 more F-16s
LPD

Pricesely..last three yrs are scheduled 16 major turkish projects (dont have the catalogue) total cost of 6.8 billion dollars and Turkey has requested 24 RFI and RFP (data from Greek magazine, Defence Bible 2007-08)

 

[orko_8]

Pricesely..last three yrs are scheduled 16 major turkish projects (dont have the catalogue) total cost of 6.8 billion dollars and Turkey has requested 24 RFI and RFP (data from Greek magazine, Defence Bible 2007-08)

http://www.ssm.gov.tr/EN/PROJELER/Pages/default.aspx

You can get a clearer picture here. Some project pages don't get frequent updates, though.

 

[nero]

subs

.

turkey is way ahead on the SSK front. although greece is acquiring 3-u-214sfor it's hellenic navy turkey has an array of smart ssks to handle any situation.

ATILAY-Class : 6 currently in service

PREVEZE-class : currently 8 in active service

with 15 SSks in all turkish navy poses a huge challenge to the greek hellenic navy.

what chances do the greek hellenic navy has against the mighty turkish fleet??


.

 

[Stimpy75]

you forget that there is the black sea,the meditterenian and the agäis where turkish navy is active,and i repeat it again,there won´t be any full action conflict in the future...not with hellas,it ain´t worth it!!so let´s just hope that it will stay this way

 

[beleg]

You cant say there wont be conflict. It is very unlikely but a conflict is always possible as long as we have problems. Kardak crisis, which happened at a time when we were about to declare war on Syria is a good example. We must be prepared to fight a conventional war on 2 fronts. Greece of course has the right to take necessary precautions to defend her territory. Defense industry makes good money thanks to us

By the way, i still don't get why Greeks think Turkey is trying to conquer Cyprus after 33 years of peace and Annan Plan voted positively by Turks.

 

[fantasma]

.

turkey is way ahead on the SSK front. although greece is acquiring 3-u-214sfor it's hellenic navy turkey has an array of smart ssks to handle any situation.

ATILAY-Class : 6 currently in service

PREVEZE-class : currently 8 in active service

with 15 SSks in all turkish navy poses a huge challenge to the greek hellenic navy.

what chances do the greek hellenic navy has against the mighty turkish fleet??


.

Greece is acquiring 4 214 plus 3 209/1200 upgraded with AIP under the Neptune II Project. In 2011 or 2012 greece will have 7 subs (3 of them almost equal to the 4 214)..Although the operational or financial problems of the project still exist though it is still proceeding. As soon as it is solved within a few months from now Greece will acquire 2 or 3 SSK 214 construction will be finished until 2010 or 11 counting the delays. I guess 7 subs with AIP have enough quality to counter balance the situation until the turkish ssk's with AIP will enter service. Maybe an order of 2-3 214 will follow to complete a combat sub fleet of 9 or 10 boats including AIP.

In my view the MILGEM project will give quantity and quality for the Turkish Navy and will make the difference on the naval balance when will enter service. Greece will reduce the gap in qualitative and quantitative terms when the New Frigate enters in the Aegean theatre. Their number was initially for 6 ships until 2017..to my subjective opinion the final number will be for 4 ships and a possible option (with few possibilities) for plus 2 boats.

The main greek fleet will be formed from 6 Kortenaer (already 2-3 of them upgraded)+ 4 Meko 200 modernised (next Empae), +4 or 6 New Frigate..Though that Turkey has for the time being clearly the upper hand mainly in numbers i guess that people insiders of the naval issues in Turkey trully pay respect to the Greek Navy..it surely greek navy needs reinforcement in quality and quantity better organisation plans and MONEY..and Stimpy my friend have you ever heard the name Konstantinos Kanaris? Joking...Undoubtedly Turkey is investing and planning to create a formidable force in quality and quantity in the eastern Mediterranean, Aegean, Black Sea..Greece is also a naval nation and should have presence to Aegean, Eastern Meditteranean, South Mediterranean and Adriatic Sea and of course until problems with Turkey be resolved greek officials shall pay attention to the turkish fleet structure and their naval increasing capabilities.

 

[fantasma]

http://www.ssm.gov.tr/EN/PROJELER/Pages/default.aspx

You can get a clearer picture here. Some project pages don't get frequent updates, though.

Many thanks orko for the info you have provided