Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for? [Recent F-16 deal news, etc]

[sobank]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

GF???? whats that ?
We only knw one GF here & thats gf0012-aust.

I think u have gotten confused GF (gf0012-aust) is not an AirCraft but one of the most senior members & a moderator here.

Hay GF, Congrats ! ur an AirCraft now. How many external drop tanks u carry? Whats ur range ? Plus how good r u compared to Su-30MKI. If ur good we ll buy u.

lollolololololoolololol

i thought that was grippen lololololololo anyway GF has serious range problemsnfloorl:

 

[SABRE]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

Dont under estimate GF's range power buddy, he'll shoot u down beyond visual contact & fly deep inside ur membership & drop a MBW or launch a BVR missiles such as APMBM. He is one of the F-22s here so watch it.

If ur woundering what weapons r those than;

1. MBW= Member Warning Bomb
2. APMBM= Advanced paramanent member banning missile.

U wnt even knw what hit u..

Ok enough of the jokes.

 

[webmaster]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

Lets stop these kiddish jokes and get back to the topic. :roll

 

[dalden]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

Sino-Pak relation is not based on Arms deals, India's Relation to Russia is ourely business and less strategic now (after teh Coldwar). China's relation with pakistan is based on trust and China now see's its realtions with Pakistan as strategic as pakistan has always seen its realtion with, China.

China wants Western military Equipment (hence logic dictates Pakistan cannot be forced into depravation and arm twisting is not logical nor is it desirable)and european arms manufacturers do want to cater that need (the more we sell, the more we put in R&D therefore, we rely less on US owned R&D). but it's US pressure (which is loosing grip over EU nations as we speak!!). Unfortunately the US cannot control EU, since we (EU) when combined together can equal the US in numerous fields.

RE- EU equals US. Allthough I wish it was true, the key words would appear to be 'when combined together'. The EU is still a long way from being an intergrated defence unit, and although it rivals (or surpasses) the US in base economic numbers its members are clearly not reading from the same book. Look at the differences over Iraq or even future sales to China. France is all for it, while UK (and lesser extent, Italy)which have extensive atlantic defence and business ties, are against sales to China.:coffee :coffee

 

[adsH]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

.

Even if America were willing to supply such advanced delivery weapons to Pakistan - could we depend upon them, when it comes to such a strategic delivery system? With the alleged Israeli penetration into almost all spheres of American defence arena, it is quite conceivable that these very weapons will not work exactly at the moment of need. Are we then going to sue America after the event, or return defective goods for refund?? Untold damage would have been done, and those who run America would gloat with their mission accomplished – the only nuclear Islamic country neutralised.

Those trained in electronics should know that, at the design stage, adding a rogue circuit in a crucial integrated circuit (with the fabrication of a handful of transistors, amongst millions of normal transistors) could be done. These rogue circuits could respond to a specific, short, super secret satellite transmitted code. This could render the whole system useless. Even the Americans themselves might not be ware of this. Such is the level of alleged Israeli penetration. The reason why Israel uses its own avionics is not that these are necessarily more advanced than the American avionics; it is because, amongst other reasons, these systems are clean. Allegedly, the Israeli’s would not let Americans any where near their advanced crucial systems.​

Alleged "Israeli penetration" is still disputed. Israelis are only given what they need and is deemed Appropriate for them. The US still Maintains superiority in almost all fields. Compartmentalization is one area i would rate the US on.

If we are talking about Israelis and Pakistanis. they both don't let anyone see there primary defense weapons. thats how they operate, that how every nation operates. this is how defense which is mainly Classified works


In a real world Situation Countries depend on multi tear Defense strategies. When for instance Military R&D facilities carry out R&D work they term it High profile Systems development (i think). that means every change in the System is monitored Recorded Documented tested and then evaluated. Every Code put in place has to be verified, its programmer is loged too. so that if any error due to negligence or malicious reasons occur they can be back traced. When i guess Such High profile weapons are transfered. there entire Software specs are transferred too, Sometimes with Source-codes. which means Every System subsystems is verified by the people that purchase the AC (Its not a matter of just Providing COTS Equipment these are Multi million dollar High Maintenance Assets Every system down to PCB is Counted). I doubt a Nation would put its entire defense Strategy on one type of defense system. I believe if PAF gets the F-16 they would get the Source codes with them, since its Atleast a gen behind to current gen AC, and that PAF would need them to integrate the Eyriee AEW&C with them.​

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

I believe if PAF gets the F-16 they would get the Source codes with them, since its Atleast a gen behind to current gen AC, and that PAF would need them to integrate the Eyriee AEW&C with them.

The US won't release source code for the F-16. It hasn't released it to any of the platform purchasers - including initiate/foundation users in NATO.

You also don't need the source code to integrate the platform into an AE&WCs or AWACs. There are a number of users of F-16's, F-15's who also use E3's (a far more complex platform than the Eyrie) and they haven't needed source codes.

The critical issue is not source code (which is relevant to a full greenfields manufacture) but of ensuring comms and datlinks are in place. That has nothing to do with platform source code (and fundamentally is a manufacturer, FMS and State Dept issue).

Nobody will hand out source codes unless complete offshore licensed production has beren granted - and even then some critical components can only be bought in from the supplier..

I can't think of any modern combat aircraft in the last 50 years that has had source codes legitimately supplied "offshore".

 

[adsH]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

The US won't release source code for the F-16. It hasn't released it to any of the platform purchasers - including initiate/foundation users in NATO.

You also don't need the source code to integrate the platform into an AE&WCs or AWACs. There are a number of users of F-16's, F-15's who also use E3's (a far more complex platform than the Eyrie) and they haven't needed source codes.

The critical issue is not source code (which is relevant to a full greenfields manufacture) but of ensuring comms and datlinks are in place. That has nothing to do with platform source code (and fundamentally is a manufacturer, FMS and State Dept issue).

Nobody will hand out source codes unless complete offshore licensed production has beren granted - and even then some critical components can only be bought in from the supplier..

I can't think of any modern combat aircraft in the last 50 years that has had source codes legitimately supplied "offshore".

GF what about UAE did they get some sort of Sorce Codes with there Purchase i read that they did thats why they Chose the F-16 Block 60 over the Competition. Is there anyway to find out for sure i understand its a sensitive issue for Suppliers. But i think its only fare to a large volume Buyer to have all the pieces of the Puzzle. since the the Source code is still a small part of the whole product any violation of intellectual property right could result in shutdown of Spare & supplies.

 

[asaracen]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

Alleged "Israeli penetration" is still disputed. Israelis are only given what they need and is deemed Appropriate for them. The

US still Maintains superiority in almost all fields. Compartmentalization is one area i would rate the US on.

the US-Israeli relationship, and the level of their collaboration is dictated by the ones who have much influence and control there, and it is well documented. No US leader can say NO, and survive for long. This is not the topic of this thread, so I'll leave you with some thoughts to do your own research – there is a tonnes of stuff on the net, and in the print media.

If we are talking about Israelis and Pakistanis. they both don't let anyone see there primary defense weapons. thats how they operate, that how every nation operates. this is how defense which is mainly Classified works

Well, Israeli’s don't let any one near theirs, and to ensure this, they most certainly have one of the best security \ intelligence services in the world. America, on the other hand, is an open society, built by immigrants, and over the centuries, it has generously absorbed diasporas of many colours and creeds. Some of the Diaspora communities in USA wield so much power and influence there, it is sometimes hard to believe whether America is a sovereign nation – especially, when it comes to middle eastern affairs.

Pakistan has altogether a different situation. It has to survive against an adversary almost 10 X bigger financially, while being strangled (at least until 9/11) by the west for developing nuclear weapons to defend itself. Whereas Pakistani’s most probably have very good intelligence services too, but they are technically dependent on others, when it comes to integration and upgrade of its advanced defence assets. Perhaps India too is in the same boat, depending on its foreign suppliers (Russians, Israeli’s and French et al) India & Pakistan actually invite the supplier’s top experts to come and go into their systems!!

In a real world Situation Countries depend on multi tear Defense strategies. When for instance Military R&D facilities carry out R&D work they term it High profile Systems development (i think). that means every change in the System is monitored Recorded Documented tested and then evaluated. Every Code put in place has to be verified, its programmer is loged too. so that if any error due to negligence or malicious reasons occur they can be back traced. When i guess Such High profile weapons are transfered. there entire Software specs are transferred too, Sometimes with Source-codes. which means Every System subsystems is verified by the people that purchase the AC (Its not a matter of just Providing COTS Equipment these are Multi million dollar High Maintenance Assets Every system down to PCB is Counted).

I do not know what your back ground is, but in my previous post, I clearly stated “Those trained in electronics should know… “

You see, there are 100’s of millions of transistors on a chip. Even ASIC’s now have very high density gates, and all quality control measures are infallible, if you have highly trained moles working inside an organisation. Controlling software for bugs is even more problematic. Microsoft operating system has 101 ways of getting into it - without even trying! Sifting through millions of lines of code will require 100’s of man years.

To give you some idea of Israeli penetration, I shall offer here only one case:
***************************************************


http://www.landfield.com/isn/mail-archive/2000/May/0130.html

May 21st, 2000

MORE than 20 years of Israeli spying operations in Washington
culminated in the interception of e-mails from President Bill Clinton,
intelligence sources claimed last week.

The revelations come at a sensitive time as Ehud Barak, the Israeli
prime minister, is ex-pected to fly to Washington today for talks with
Clinton about the Middle East peace process.

The latest spying operation is said to have taken place in 1998 while
Benjamin Netanyahu was Israel's prime minister. According to the
sources, it entailed hacking into White House computer systems during
intense speculation about the direction of the peace process.

Sources in Israel say intelligence agents infiltrated Telrad, a
company that had been subcontracted by Nortel, America's largest
telecommunications conglomerate, to help develop a communications
system for the White House.

Company managers were said to have been unaware that virtually
undetectable chips installed during manufacture made it possible for
outside agents to tap into the flow of data from the White House.

Information being sent from the president to his senior staff in the
National Security Council and outside government departments could be
copied into a secret Israeli computer in Washington, the sources said.
It was transferred to Tel Aviv two or three times a week.

One opportunity for Israeli agents to mount the operation arose when
Nortel, Telrad and another firm won a 33m contract to replace
communications equipment for the Israeli air force. Members of the air
force were allowed access to manufacturing areas as a result…………

http://www.landfield.com/isn/mail-archive/2000/May/0130.html


****************************************************

I doubt a Nation would put its entire defense Strategy on one type of defense system. I believe if PAF gets the F-16 they would get the Source codes with them, since its Atleast a gen behind to current gen AC, and that PAF would need them to integrate the Eyriee AEW&C with them.

I believe gf0012-aus has dealt with this most appropriately:

“The US won't release source code for the F-16. It hasn't released it to any of the platform purchasers - includinginitiate/foundation users in NATO……..â€

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

GF what about UAE did they get some sort of Sorce Codes with there Purchase i read that they did thats why they Chose the F-16 Block 60 over the Competition. Is there anyway to find out for sure i understand its a sensitive issue for Suppliers. But i think its only fare to a large volume Buyer to have all the pieces of the Puzzle. since the the Source code is still a small part of the whole product any violation of intellectual property right could result in shutdown of Spare & supplies.

There are really only a few operational reasons why you provide source code.

1) To enable offshore production that is autonomous of the original supplier
2) To allow dissimilar weapons packages to be integrated
3) To continue production externally if local production is ceased.

I cannot stress enough how highly unlikely it is for critical source codes to be supplied.

1) It allows flight parameters and behaviour to be determined
2) It consequently allows more specific defence processes to be created at both the defending aircraft level and the IADS level. Pakistans principle ally is China - not the USA. The US will not to anything that may lead to China gaining access to US technology. That doesn't mean that Pakistan would give it to China deliberately, but it does mean that they have to exercise approp prudence and caution.
3) You don't need source code to attach the weapons that Pakistan has. They are std military busses and Pakistan is not using any esoteric weapons packages. There is enough sufficient knowledge anyway if Pakistan decided to fit russian origin "Chinese" weapons. Some of the "Russian origin" Chinese weapons are legacy items of US technology anyway, so interconnects and mounting points are not that big a conversion issue.

The notion that you need full source codes to properly manage the platform is "nice" - but not essential. After all, 16 NATO nations have done it - and the F-16 is a huge US export success.

 

[SABRE]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

According to one of my sources in Islamabad President Musharaf has asked Condilisa Rice for F-16 Sales as well as (on the demand of ACM) F-18 sales to Pakistan.
The source also said that PAF wishes to buy 25 F-16s of Block 50 as well as few Block 60s & may possibly buy 20 of F-18s.
Condilisa Rise said that deal would be considered by the President when she convays Pakistan's wishes.

Frankly, if this is true, I dont realy understand PAF buying two jets of similar class. Talk about buying F-15Es instead of F-18s.

In an interview with GEO TV regarding the F-16 sale, she said that USA knws Pakistan's defence needs & need for balance of power in the region, in another words "we r still considering".
She said President Bush wishes to visit the region but has no planned or schedual at the moment.

 

[adsH]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

Let’s start with this~ On the other hand its makes perfect sense that PAF would choose the F-16 Block 60 since UAE hires consultants from PAF, which convey the requirements. If we look at the F-18 I think the PAF ACM prefers the AC since its Payload Capability is allot better its Avionics are probably more capable.


Compare this: from my prospective the F-18E/F is more focused with Air to ground and Maritime requirements. While the F-15 E are more of a long range A2A Interdiction AC which I think PAF does not require since Pakistan can never mange to Gain complete Air Supremacy over India. Regardless of Quality they lack the Sheer Numbers.




SPECIFICATIONS - F/A-18E/F SUPER HORNET MARITIME STRIKE ATTACK AIRCRAFT, USA

Crewone pilot on the F/A-18/E, two, the pilot and copilot on F/A-18/f Dimensionswing span44 feet 8 incheswidth wings folded30 feet 7 inchesLength60 ft 1 inchHeight16 feet 0 inchesWeightsweight empty30,000 lbTake-off weight with attack payload66,000 lbPerformancemaximum speedin excess of mach 1.8flight ceiling50,000 feetcombat radius400 nautical milescombat endurance135 minutes

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/fa18/specs.html


SPECIFICATIONS - F-15E 'STRIKE' EAGLE LONG-RANGE INTERDICTION FIGHTER, USA

CrewTwoRoleLong-range interdiction and air superioritydesigner and ManufacturerBoeing, previously mcdonnell douglas aerospace division of mcdonnell douglas Corp.,St. Louis, MissouriDimensionsWingspan42.8 feet (13.05 m)Length63.8 feet (19.45 m)Height18.5 feet (5.64 m)Weight45,000 lb (20,411 kg) classmaximum gross takeoff weight81,000 poundsPowerplanttwo pratt & whitney F100-PW-229 low-bypass turbofan engines each developing approximately 29,000 pounds of thrust.WeaponsAir-to-air missilesup to four AIM-9lm infrared-guided sidewinder missilesup to four AIM-7F/m radar-guided sparrow missilesup to eight advanced medium range Air-to-air missiles, AMRAAMAir-to-ground ordnancerange of air-to-ground ordnance, including precision weapons such as:GBU-10, -12, -15 and -24 bombs, andAGM-65.maverick imaging infrared missileGunone M-61 2omm gatling gunAvionicsraytheon APG-70 synthetic aperture radarkaiser wide-field-of-view holographic head-up displaylitton ring-laser-gyro inertial navigation system7 sperry multipurpose monochrome and color dispay screensinternal countermeasures equipment by northrop Grumman, lockheed Martin, Raytheonlockeed martin lantirn low altitude navigation and targeting infrared for night systemPerformanceSpeedmach 2.5 (1,875 mph)Rangemore than 3,500 miles ferry range (conformal fuel tanks plus 3 external fuel tanks)Ceiling65,000 feet (20,000 metres)load Factor-3g to +9g



http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/f15/specs.html

 

[Red aRRow]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

Ok lets not get ahead of ourselves shall we. I think F/A 18 would be a bad choice since Pakistan would have to set up new supply lines, training on a new platform etc. I still think J-10 and JF-17 are the way to go since the U.S. usually screws over allies pretty quickly once they have lived out their usefulness.

Or if PAF has to then F-16s are good enough since they have been operating it under sanctions for the better part of a decade already.

 

[SABRE]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

I think F-16s C/D of Block 50 & 60 are enough. They can perform A2A missions as well as A2G. Since block 60s r considered 3.5 PAF should get more of them.
I like F-18s & if USA allows the sale than let them come. But it would still be better to by 45 F-16 for a stop gap till PAF gets a good 4th Gen AC.

If we can wait till 2008 we can get some good Chinese jets. I have herd that China is making an other light weight AirCraft which would be superior to Su-30s & J-XX is also suppose to hit the production line in 2008 (or was it 2k15)..Lets hold on till than & than buy the 2 new Chinese jets.
PAF Should realy have Chinese jets & also get the ToT of some.

1. J-XX
2. J-?? (Light Weight AC....ToT)
3. J-10 (ToT)
4. JF-17 (made at home)
5. F-16s
6. Q5D
7. F-7PG & their upgrades
8. Mirge3 ROSE
9. JH-7 & J-8 (Replace Mirage 5..for naval strike)

This will keep any enemy AirForce into its own area & prevent them from entering Pakistan. By 2020 we will phase out F-7s, Mirages & Q5s.

 

[A Khan]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

I also agree with Red arrow, the F-16 er good enough, given "the price tag", we'll just have to pay for the planes, and not for the infrastructure which we already have get as many as we can without jeopardising the funds for the future aquisitions. With regards to the F-18s they are probably very good planes, but they are bound to be expensive.

i know this might sound far fetched to some, but think about the J-10 for a second, isn't one of its main aims to be able to counter the F-18s of the USN? and once the chinese engine for it is ready, it would be most likely be in the same class (hard to say at this moment, better or worse) and it will be with a much more affordable price tag. And given the J-10s similarities with the JF-17. should also be "cheaper" to maintain

SABRE: any idea why the ACM is so found of the F-18?

 

[SABRE]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

SABRE: any idea why the ACM is so found of the F-18?

Have no Idea, he has been talking about F-18s since he took the seat. When he became ACM some press reporter asked him about F-16s & he said for get F-16s think about F-18s.

I think he likes F-18s over F-16s. He probably believes that with F-18s alot of stress from PAF can be reduced. F-18s can go A2A & A2G PS they will also be good for maritime attacks (Naval opperations). So F-18 alone can perform the job of PAF's F-16s, F-7s, Mirage 3 & 5 & since they have better ground attack capabilities they can even do Q5s job.

 

[adsH]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

Sbre:Since block 60s r considered 3.5

These are definitely 4th gen. they have won contracts when faced with Rafael’s.

 

[A Khan]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

What about the F-18E/Fs, arent they also 4th gen?

 

[mysterious]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

If I'm not mistaken, I think they are. Anyone want to elaborate?

 

[highsea]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

Here's a discussion on fighter generations. It's not really an official term, it's just something that has kind of caught on by itself. All of the American teen series fighters are generally considered "4th generation" AC. Super Hornets are considered 4.5th Gen., like the Eurofighter, Rafale, SU-30 family, and Gripen.

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/history/q0182.shtml

 

[SABRE]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

F-18E/F Super Hornets are 4.5 according to the HighSea's list but it would still be better that 'paf goes for F-16 C/D Block 60. Block A/B 15 upgrade+block C/D 50+60 thats enough till Chinese come up with J-XX & the new light weight AC that is being built in competition to Su-30.