Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for? [Recent F-16 deal news, etc]

[SABRE]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

If I was the ACM with 3 possible 3 billion (senet)+2billion (long term from loan KSA & UAE)+, I'll list the shoping it like this:

FIGHTERS​

1. Rafale......................20
2. Mirage2000-5............10
3. Mirage2000-9............05
4. F-16s.......................get as many as you want
5. JF-17.......................make as many as u want
6. F-7 (PG only).............Current number & order Max Upgrade
7. Mirage3 & 5 (ROSE).....Current number & order Max Upgrade

FIGHTER-BOMBERS​

8. Mirage2000-D............05
9. J-10B.......................12 (Bombers)

AWACs​

10. ERIEYE.....................4

Get them by 2k8 to 2k10 & than start building on it.

 

[A Khan]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

Sabre: i dont know much about the Mirage 2000-9, therefore i have some questions, hope that u can answer some of them: (thanx)

What would be the price tag on the mirage 2000-9?
would PAF be looking to buy them from the UAE of new ones from France?
how old are the UAE ones?
if PAF were to buy them from UAE then how many does the UAE have and what would they approximately cost?

 

[SABRE]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

Sabre: i dont know much about the Mirage 2000-9, therefore i have some questions, hope that u can answer some of them: (thanx)

What would be the price tag on the mirage 2000-9?
would PAF be looking to buy them from the UAE of new ones from France?
how old are the UAE ones?
if PAF were to buy them from UAE then how many does the UAE have and what would they approximately cost?

regarding your new list, how come no J-10 on this one?

Since Mirage2000-9 (UAE) & Mirage2000-5 Mark2 (Greece...it is essentialy Mirage2000-9) are coustomized versions of Mirage 2000-5 their price would differ with your choice e.g: Price of Mirage2000-5+Your Choice.
Dnt remember the prices of Mirage2000-5 Check the AC Price thread.
YOu may get Mark2 & Mirage2000-9 price there too, maybe, I havent checked there.

UAE Mirage2000-9 are not for sale & were inducted in the yr 2000. UAE ordered 32 of them.

UAE Mirage 2000-9 has "Shehab" laser targeting pod which is a better varient of French Thales Damocles pod which is default part of Mirage2000-5. It also has Nahae navigation pod complementing the air-to-ground modes of the RDY-2 Radar Mirage2k5 has RDY-1 Radar). UAE Mirage2000-9 are also going to carry "Black Shahine" Cruise missile a varient of APACHE Cruise missile which Mirage2000-5 carries.
Black Shahin (Shaheen) is said to be based on Pakistani coustomization but its built by the Frenchs.
So you can see that UAE Mirage2000-9 carries systems one level up than Mirage2000-5. U can say its one step ahead. Its very capable for stricke missions. Its just what doctors ordered.

PAF had asked France & Dessault for Mirage2000-9 based on Pakistani coustomization for PAF. France agreed but seems like Pakistan was not serious. I guess it was just an "InCase" question.

Regarding the new list it has J-10 on it. Check the fighter-bombers

 

[adsH]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

UAE Mirage2000-9 are also going to carry "Black Shahine" Cruise missile a varient of APACHE Cruise missile which Mirage2000-5 carries.
Black Shahin (Shaheen) is said to be based on Pakistani coustomization but its built by the Frenchs.

STORM SHADOW / SCALP EG is essentially the Black shaheen, it was customized as a marketing ploy and has nothing to do with UAE or Pakistan. UAE i think has a hand in its Production that why its called that, but essentially its a variant.

 

[SABRE]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

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STORM SHADOW / SCALP EG is essentially the Black shaheen, it was customized as a marketing ploy and has nothing to do with UAE or Pakistan. UAE i think has a hand in its Production that why its called that, but essentially its a variant.

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1st u say that UAE & Pakistan has nothing to do with it than u say UAE has a hand in its making...make up ur mind.

I have read it on the net...the Shaheen cruise missile is a joint upgrade by of APPACHE by Frecn & UAE. Offcourse UAE was only the financial partner, but since Mirage2000-9 coustomizations were desinged by PAF officials hired by UAE AirForce the entire Shaheen CM upgrade were coutomized by them on behalf of UAE. They were the one to convay the requirments.
These coustomiztions r not based on requirments that of PAF but on the UAE Airforce.

 

[P.A.F]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

in my view PAf should open up a bulk order of 60-80 front-line fighters like india has done with 125 aircraft. that way countries would be more interested. it's noi good just buying 5-10. thats just dumb. if i was given the current funds that PAF have with a possible loan then this is my list:-
F-16 our current ones+ another 20-30.

JF-17 200+

J-10 we'll have to see it perform first:

Gripen or rafale the bulk order we are talking about 60-80.

Mirage 2000-9 SABRE has opened my eyes to this aircraft & i like it. so have a good 30 of them to form a bomber squdron

to top that up have the current f-7's and mirages with big time upgrades .

and link all the aircraft to 4-5 erieye or hawkeyes.

this is my vision of the PAf by 2015-2020

 

[Aussie Digger]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

Here's a run down on the Storm Shadow/Scalp/Black Shaheen standoff missile system... Nothing I've read indicates that Pakistan has ever had anything to do with this missile. I also seriously doubt MBDA would allow it's technology into Pakistan's hands without a significantly large purchase from Pakistan...

Storm Shadow/SCALP

The British Storm Shadow and French SCALP EG air-launched cruise missiles are based on a common design by MBDA Missile Systems. The weapon delivers a combination of long-range, high-accuracy and extreme destructive power that is unmatched in any equivalent in-service system. The arrival into service of the Storm Shadow/SCALP represents a major step forward in warfighting capability for Europe's air forces. A highly sophisticated imaging seeker with target recognition functions is tied to the missile's BROACH warhead, specifically designed to attack buried and hardened targets. The Storm Shadow had its combat debut on RAF Tornado GR.Mk 4s deployed for combat over Iraq in Operation Telic-before the missile had been officially accepted into service.

About 30 Storm Shadows were fired against various targets with crews reportedly extremely impressed at the system's effectiveness. In France, the SCALP EG will enter service on the Mirage 2000D later this year. The Storm Shadow has been sold to Italy, while the SCALP EG has been sold to Greece, and also exported to the UAE as the tailor-made Black Shaheen cruise missile. The Storm Shadow will go on to equip the Eurofighter Typhoon and Rafale in future service. MBDA is now developing a ship-launched version of the SCALP/Storm Shadow, dubbed the 'SCALP Navale'. MBDA is also conducting a UK-backed study into equipping the Airbus A400M airlifter with Storm Shadows as a standoff penetration weapons platform.

As to the plans for fighter jets for the PAF in 5-10 aircraft quantities? WTF what use would 5 aircraft be? The best option for Pakistan would be to REDUCE it's aircraft inventory fleet not INCREASE it... 3 or so fighter aircraft types are going to be far more affordable in the long run than 7 to 8 aircraft types with similar capabilities... F-16, JF-17 and a 4th Gen fighter (Rafale would be my bet) would provide all the capabilities PAF could require. Anything else would be simply wasteful...

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

The best option for Pakistan would be to REDUCE it's aircraft inventory fleet not INCREASE it... 3 or so fighter aircraft types are going to be far more affordable in the long run than 7 to 8 aircraft types with similar capabilities... F-16, JF-17 and a 4th Gen fighter (Rafale would be my bet) would provide all the capabilities PAF could require. Anything else would be simply wasteful...

I agree. It's pointless having different types of fighter that fulfill similar requirements. Much better to concentrate on a few.

By the way, I really like the Storm Shadow. I think it's just what the British (and French) armed forces could do with.

 

[SABRE]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

Here's a run down on the Storm Shadow/Scalp/Black Shaheen standoff missile system... Nothing I've read indicates that Pakistan has ever had anything to do with this missile. I also seriously doubt MBDA would allow it's technology into Pakistan's hands without a significantly large purchase from Pakistan......

AD the Pakistan Airoforce officials who work for UAE & KSA AirForces are not part of Pakistan Airforce at the moment nor they r PAF employees. They were sent to UAE & they were given new contracts & they r paid only by UAE & KSA govt. The weapons team consists of many Pakistanis there & they were the one to coutomize Mirage2000-9 according to the needs of their AirForce that is UAE AirForce. They excepted APPACHE but demanded upgrade versions.
Since these boys r not part of PAF but UAE AirForce, no website tells that the BLACK SHAHEEN was coustomized according to the wishes of Pakistani Officials but UAE.

I do agree with you on that PAF should decrease the number than increase it. But they r not only looking for Fighters but also Bombers.

F-16s r what PAF is good at flying so no point side lining them. Even with the best of upgrades on F-7s & Mirage 3/5 they r doomed to go out in 8 to 10 yrs. It is because of this I had given a long list. The line up with automaticaly decrease once F-7 & Mir3/5 retire. JF-17 is good enough to replace F-7 but it wont be able to perform quick ground attack penetration like Mirage 3/5 as it flies at the max speed of MACH 1.6 (F-16s fly at Mach 1.6 & Mirage 3/5 at MACH 2) so PAF also requires Mirage2000-5/9 for the Mirage 3/5 replacement.
Since Bomber sqdn needs new aircrafts to replace Q5 they should be equiped with better chinese tech & that would be J-10. Chinese have already said that 2 seater J-10B will be tuned to Bombers to replace Q5 also they will be replacing JH-7 & 8.
With ur choice of RAFALE, I definitly agree.

Line up after Mirage 3/5 & F-7 retirement

1. F-16s current A/B upgrade + as many as required (possibly 100+)
2. Mirage2000-5/9/D ............20 (Build on it..buy more as time passes)
3. RAFALE...........................20 ((Build on it..buy more as time passes)
4. J-10 (B only...replace Q5)..20+
5. JF-17.............................as many as needed

Or Tune JF-17B two seater (now approved project) to bombers & erase J-10 from the list. No point keeping two similar jets.
SIMPLE BUILD UP:

1. Rafale
2. Mirage2000-5/9/D (D for nuke penetration)
3. F-16s
4. JF-17

This decreases the PAF line up & makes it better looking.

I eyes r still shut P.A.F. Mirage2000-9 is more capable than u r thinking it is right now. It has alot of technology adopted from RAFALE.

Mirage2000-9 is a strike fighter for both air-to-ground & air-to-air attack. But the actual jet that is tuned for bombing is Mirage-2000D with Nuke penetration capability. It carries out automated bombing using conventional & laser guided munitions. Carries high precision weapons which can be fired from a safe distance. It also carries convention lesar guided weapons, low drag bombs + the APPACHE Cruise missile.
All attacks can be carried out at day or night, at very high speed while flying at low altitude.
So if ur looking for Mirages as bombers Mirage2000N&D r ur choice not Mirage2000-5 or Mirage2000-9.


PAF also discussed its varient of Mirage2000-9 with France but some how it got lost, even though France agreed to it. Hope Musharaf has re-opened the discussions with French President.

 

[Aussie Digger]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

None of the aircraft you hve mentioned Sabre is a bomber. The only true bombers in existence are B-52, B-1B and TU-160 class aircraft. The aircraft you are speaking about are strike fighters, ie: fighter aircraft that have been adapted for the air to ground mission. Again acquiring M2k-9 AND Rafale is duplicating the same capability but using totally different aircraft to do it.

Yes M2k-9 MAY have some elements of the Rafale's avionics. This will save some funds, but you've got 2 completely different airframes, different engines and 2 completely separate logisitical systems required to support each aircraft. Each aircraft is designed for the same basic mission. It's a strike fighter. The difference is the Rafale is the next gen fighter, and M2k-9 is "old" tech... It may be the latest variant of the Mirage 2k series, but the Mirage 2K aircraft is an "old" fighter. It was considered (and found to be lacking due to range, payload and radar performance inadequacies!!!) For the RAAF's Mirage III replacement in the mid to late 70's!!!

From what I have read, there is no mission that the Rafale cannot perform better than the M2K-9. The first gen rafale being issued now is the Tranche 1 version and is equipped for air to air and training missions only. The Tranche 2 is already being built and will possess the full range of capabilities required today. Tranche 3 will provide additional capabilities (AESA radar, Thrust vectoring nozzle engines, conformal fuel tanks, additional weapons capabilities etc). Tranche 2 Rafales with a pre-planned upgrade to Tranche 3 is what the PAF should look at acquiring. M2k-9 would be a waste. The money would be better spent on more Rafales (or F-16's or JF-17's)...

Btw, F-16 is a genuine Mach 2+ class fighter and I'd bet it possesses a far greater strike range than Mirage III/V. In addition it can carry a more useful payload with 11 hardpoints (3 normally used for drop tanks) as opposed to the 7 on Mirage III/V...

The UAE acquired a customised version of the Storm Shadow standoff missile. Apache is a French Airforce designation only. Scalp is what the French Navy calls it. MBDA is the manufacture and IT calls it the Storm Shadow... The upgrade (or "export") version provided to UAE would have been modified by MBDA personnel. There's no way the source codes would have been handed over to the UAE Air force, which would be required for them to undertake their own modifications...

 

[SABRE]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

None of the aircraft you hve mentioned Sabre is a bomber. The only true bombers in existence are B-52, B-1B and TU-160 class aircraft. The aircraft you are speaking about are strike fighters, ie: fighter aircraft that have been adapted for the air to ground mission. Again acquiring M2k-9 AND Rafale is duplicating the same capability but using totally different aircraft to do it.

Yes M2k-9 MAY have some elements of the Rafale's avionics. This will save some funds, but you've got 2 completely different airframes, different engines and 2 completely separate logisitical systems required to support each aircraft. Each aircraft is designed for the same basic mission. It's a strike fighter. The difference is the Rafale is the next gen fighter, and M2k-9 is "old" tech... It may be the latest variant of the Mirage 2k series, but the Mirage 2K aircraft is an "old" fighter. It was considered (and found to be lacking due to range, payload and radar performance inadequacies!!!) For the RAAF's Mirage III replacement in the mid to late 70's!!!

From what I have read, there is no mission that the Rafale cannot perform better than the M2K-9. The first gen rafale being issued now is the Tranche 1 version and is equipped for air to air and training missions only. The Tranche 2 is already being built and will possess the full range of capabilities required today. Tranche 3 will provide additional capabilities (AESA radar, Thrust vectoring nozzle engines, conformal fuel tanks, additional weapons capabilities etc). Tranche 2 Rafales with a pre-planned upgrade to Tranche 3 is what the PAF should look at acquiring. M2k-9 would be a waste. The money would be better spent on more Rafales (or F-16's or JF-17's)...

Btw, F-16 is a genuine Mach 2+ class fighter and I'd bet it possesses a far greater strike range than Mirage III/V. In addition it can carry a more useful payload with 11 hardpoints (3 normally used for drop tanks) as opposed to the 7 on Mirage III/V...

The UAE acquired a customised version of the Storm Shadow standoff missile. Apache is a French Airforce designation only. Scalp is what the French Navy calls it. MBDA is the manufacture and IT calls it the Storm Shadow... The upgrade (or "export") version provided to UAE would have been modified by MBDA personnel. There's no way the source codes would have been handed over to the UAE Air force, which would be required for them to undertake their own modifications...

By bombers we dont mean B-1 Lancer, B-2 Spirit or Tu-22/60 when it comes to PAF. We mean an aircraft totaly orianted or focused on ground strike missions e.g: Q5/A5 or some thing like Anti Tank & Ground strike fighter like A-10 + the strike ACs which can carry out nuke penetration like Mirage-2000N/D. Since the bomber sqdn exists & is looking forward to buying new ACs there is no better choice at this moment available than Mirage2000N/D but since RAFALE can perform all that Mirages r suppose to perform & it can even do it better tham Mirages + it can do more than the list decreases to Rafale. But Rafale can not be made primary stike fighter + a bomber. Bomber sqdn still needs ground penetration ACs. If which I believe will ..Rafale comes out in similar varients to M2k-9 & production of some thing like RAFALE-D starts than PAF can only become Rafale oriented & induct Rafale on all levels.
Hence:

1. Rafale
2. F-16s
3. JF-17

About storm shadow....i dint mean that MNDA gave the lay out of its tech of APPACHE to UAE & asses & upgrade it. M only saying that UAE told them what it wants it to perform & how.

 

[adsH]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

The UAE acquired a customised version of the Storm Shadow standoff missile. Apache is a French Airforce designation only. Scalp is what the French Navy calls it. MBDA is the manufacture and IT calls it the Storm Shadow... The upgrade (or "export") version provided to UAE would have been modified by MBDA personnel. There's no way the source codes would have been handed over to the UAE Air force, which would be required for them to undertake their own modifications...

Aussie i know there is a certain level of cooperation between the UAE air-force and MBDA, but i doudt it extends to R&D, i think the Black Shaheen might be coproduced or actually produced in UAE. UAE has paid Shiet Loads for this Package. $$$$.

 

[P.A.F]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

i was looking at some aircraft and came across this mirage 4000 which i believe the saudi's to have a huge influence in the project. unfortunately they scraped it because there were no potential buyers. maybe pakistan should carry on with it with frances help.
http://parisairshow.free.fr/walkaround/Mirage4000/103.JPGhttp://parisairshow.free.fr/walkaround/Mirage4000/103.JPG
http://www.b-domke.de/AviationImages/Rarebird/Images/0185.jpg
it has two engines instead of 1.

 

[P.A.F]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

another picture of this beauty

 

[A Khan]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

With regards to the whole Mirage 2000-5/9 (D/N etc). If they are that good then why is the UAE not buying more of them, instead of investing (was it 8 billion dollars) on new F-16 E/F's? or is it because each plane performs different type of missions??

If the F-16s are equally capable, then since PAF already has the setup for them ready on the ground, wouldnt requering (if the options is there) F-16s make more sense then spending the money on the mirages?

If F-16 due to some reason is not an option, then wouldnt the J-10 be a good choice? some have pointed out that the JF-17 is to some extent as capable as the J-10, which i find hard to believe... Therefore i still believe if sufficient numbers of F-16s cant be required, and if PAF doesnt have the funds to acquire a large number of Rafales (80+) then J-10 should be bought. Eventhough the first version of the plane might not be that good, i still believe that the chinese will invest a lot of card cash and manpower into making it better.

 

[SABRE]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

i was looking at some aircraft and came across this mirage 4000 which i believe the saudi's to have a huge influence in the project. unfortunately they scraped it because there were no potential buyers. maybe pakistan should carry on with it with frances help.

M4k never hit the production line. Its actualy scaled up Mirage2000 but with Two engines. Only technology demonstrating version was released & French AirForce rejected it. In 1986 it made a came back but only as a chase plan & testbad for RAFALE.
Saudis were previously interested but later rejected it cause of its high price & low value compared to mirage2000-5.

So there is no use & point in aquiring M4k.

 

[SABRE]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

With regards to the whole Mirage 2000-5/9 (D/N etc). If they are that good then why is the UAE not buying more of them, instead of investing (was it 8 billion dollars) on new F-16 E/F's? or is it because each plane performs different type of missions??

If the F-16s are equally capable, then since PAF already has the setup for them ready on the ground, wouldnt requering (if the options is there) F-16s make more sense then spending the money on the mirages?

If F-16 due to some reason is not an option, then wouldnt the J-10 be a good choice? some have pointed out that the JF-17 is to some extent as capable as the J-10, which i find hard to believe... Therefore i still believe if sufficient numbers of F-16s cant be required, and if PAF doesnt have the funds to acquire a large number of Rafales (80+) then J-10 should be bought. Eventhough the first version of the plane might not be that good, i still believe that the chinese will invest a lot of card cash and manpower into making it better.

Q1-UAE prefers F-16s over Mirage2000/5/9/D....The F-16 version Block 60 that UAE has aquired are better than any of these Mirages. Some believe they can even engage with Rafales. So u can say that next Generation F-16s r better than next generation Mirages but these F-16s r also very expensive.
The missions performed by both Jets r same but the way of performing them may differ + Mirage2000-5/9 have never been tested in a real time battle unlike F-16s.

Q2- PAF has got Mirage2000-9 on its list but F-16s top the, so as long as there is chance for F-16s Mirage2000-5/9 are out of question.

Q3- 1st generation J-10 & JF-17 with western avionics can be some what similar but the next genertation J-10 is much better. Its suppose to be in the league of Su-27 & F-18 (3rd gen would be F-18E equalent). Its a good choice unless next Gen JF-17 dnt catch up with it & I doubt it ever will. F-16 50+ C/D r still considered better than J-10.
At this moment J-10 r mostly using Russian avionics & export version has not even hit the production, so there is a long time for them to come out & PAF doesnt have time to waste or wait. Hence the choice again falls to F-16s

The next gen J-10 will be best for PAF when they come out. we can even opt for Export version's ToT. PAC is planning another facility, we can overhaul them there.

Mirages r also good for PAF cause of their knowledge & battle wisdom with previous mirages. Since new mirages perform in similar manner PAF can make a hell of a battle out of them.

 

[A Khan]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

Sabre: thanks very much for the detailed answers to my questions! and i agree with you that Rafale should be PAFs frontline fighter in the next decade, it should give the SU-30 a good challenge! only bad thing about it is that, there can be no chance of a ToT in the near future.

Well now we'll just have to wait for news from PAF. hopefully there will be some in the near future. The Erieye deal should hopefully be concluded soon. By the way, if PAF buys Erieye then what should the number be? and why? read some articles that suggested PAF was buying 7, which sounds like a decent number, because then PAF will be able to keep 2, maybe 3 in the air. wouldn't 3 aircraft, given the range of the Erieye system be required airborne, to give the best possible picture of the (eastern side of ) pakistani airspace?

 

[Pathfinder-X]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

That is a very optimistic view Sabre. As a third world country, Pakistan's defence budget is a mere 3 billion dollars. I do not believe that PAF can afford to purchase and maintain the Rafales with such a budget. Given these restrictions, JF-17 would best suit PAF's needs.

I have to make a little correction on your comment with the J-10s. The current radar package is not Russian but rather the KLJ-3 PD radar developed by Nanjing 14th insititude. It is belived to be based on early AN/APG-66/68 technology, have maximum detection range of 130km and capable of engaging 2 targets simultaneously. Later versions will be fitted with the Type 1475 Phased Array radar.

Also I doubt that J-10 will be entering Pakistani arsenal anytime soon since the second regiment is still being set up. Currently according to sinodefence.com the production rate is around 20 to 30 jets per year.

 

[SABRE]

Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?

That is a very optimistic view Sabre. As a third world country, Pakistan's defence budget is a mere 3 billion dollars. I do not believe that PAF can afford to purchase and maintain the Rafales with such a budget. Given these restrictions, JF-17 would best suit PAF's needs.

I have to make a little correction on your comment with the J-10s. The current radar package is not Russian but rather the KLJ-3 PD radar developed by Nanjing 14th insititude. It is belived to be based on early AN/APG-66/68 technology, have maximum detection range of 130km and capable of engaging 2 targets simultaneously. Later versions will be fitted with the Type 1475 Phased Array radar.

Also I doubt that J-10 will be entering Pakistani arsenal anytime soon since the second regiment is still being set up. Currently according to sinodefence.com the production rate is around 20 to 30 jets per year.

PF-X I posted the reply before we had our chit chat abt J-10 so I dint knw that J-10 is using Chinese Radar but the problem is not radar but engine. Isnt J-10 using russian engine? if it is Pakistan wont opt for it unless the Chinese release their own for J-10.

Abt the Budget PAF is holding its 3+ billion/yr but PAF is suppose to get the extra royalty as they have not been spending all of their funds since 1992 (F-16 ban). So PAF alone will get more than the navy & army. In the long run Rafale is buyable.
The choice goes like this if We buy RAFALE, there is no need to buy any other fighter & if we buy Mirages there is no pint in buying Rafale. It would be better to buy more of Mirages & may be even J-10 with it.