Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for? [Recent F-16 deal news, etc]
- Thread starter Mukesh Patel
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ThunderBolt
New Member
The thing is only having good jets wont make up for the good Airforce, what is important is the pilots, If they are higly trained and experienced then they can even take over a bigger example, as an example JF-17 over SU30, i know it may sound dumb but that is another segment that we should look at. Now on the topic, i dont think Pakistan needs to buy any more Uncle F-16's, why wont they try hitting on F-15's or SU's from Russia, we need better releations with russia. Even SU's are more expensive.
omegasigma
New Member
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?
1. When jointly mass produced the cost per unit will be under $14 million.
2. LCA takes only 7 months to make instead of the 11 months for most other aircrafts. This is due to less rivets (2000 numbers less for it's size.) It will realize as cost savings in the manufacturing process.
3. India has built up a private industry around the LCA. Pakistan can do the same and this will benefit the economy tremendously.
4. 70% of the LCA is low-cost and indigenous. This cannot be said about the JF-17 or the J-10. Not even the F-7. Once the Kaveri engine reaches 80% of it's full thrust potential, the local content increases to over 85%. This will translate into low support cost.
Jointly manufacturing is simpler between India and Pakistan because the supply chain can be easily optimized due to the proximity. The supply chain is a major challenge for the Boeing 7E7, Airbus 380 and the X-35 programs due to the vast distances between the joint manufacturing countries. Railway can be used to transport.
The military-industrial complex of both countries can benefit from this. If peace sustains, less money will go to border protection and more into R&D which turns into a good potential.
Here is my reason for recommending the LCA to Pakistan:SABRE said:
1. When jointly mass produced the cost per unit will be under $14 million.
2. LCA takes only 7 months to make instead of the 11 months for most other aircrafts. This is due to less rivets (2000 numbers less for it's size.) It will realize as cost savings in the manufacturing process.
3. India has built up a private industry around the LCA. Pakistan can do the same and this will benefit the economy tremendously.
4. 70% of the LCA is low-cost and indigenous. This cannot be said about the JF-17 or the J-10. Not even the F-7. Once the Kaveri engine reaches 80% of it's full thrust potential, the local content increases to over 85%. This will translate into low support cost.
Jointly manufacturing is simpler between India and Pakistan because the supply chain can be easily optimized due to the proximity. The supply chain is a major challenge for the Boeing 7E7, Airbus 380 and the X-35 programs due to the vast distances between the joint manufacturing countries. Railway can be used to transport.
The military-industrial complex of both countries can benefit from this. If peace sustains, less money will go to border protection and more into R&D which turns into a good potential.
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?
1st, there is no chance of PAF to buy LCA. JF-17 & LCA r off same class & no AF will buy two ACs of same class.
2nd, Pak will never buy any military equipment made by India. On the other hand we have a better neighbouring trader, China.
3rd LCA is considered as a loss of good money amongst some of the IAF officials, how do u expect PAF to go for it.
4th LCA almost costs the same as of Mirage2000, which is faaaaaaaaaar batter than LCA. Why not buy Mirage2000. (Some say LCA falls into a better version of mirage-3 which we already have...its like upgraded mirage3 at the price of Mirage2000, what a rip off)
5th, JF-17 takes less time in production. It took only 4 yrs to hit production & would be ready to come out in 2k6, while LCA hit abt 10 yrs ago & the makers r asking for a bit more time. Just pray it doesnt end up like Arjun Tank.
Also J-10 is a better option, it falls between some where near F-18s league & can become better than F-18 with some good Wester Avionics which Pak can put in when they purchase J-10.
6th, PAK bought the technology of JF-17 from China, which makes JF-17 its own & we can produce it as we want & as many we want.
JOINT PRODUCTION:
1st,Considering the relations of two nations, there is no chance.
2nd, China will not mind any joint venture between Pakistan & India but military joint venture will piss them off, as that AC of what ever we produce can be thread to China in case of any armed conflict with India.
On the other hand if the AC we make comes out to be a world class, Pakistan wont hesitate to pass it on to China which will piss of India.
China doesnt even allow Pak to have any ventures with USA, thats why PAF is looking into French & Italian Avionics market for JF-17.
1st, there is no chance of PAF to buy LCA. JF-17 & LCA r off same class & no AF will buy two ACs of same class.
2nd, Pak will never buy any military equipment made by India. On the other hand we have a better neighbouring trader, China.
3rd LCA is considered as a loss of good money amongst some of the IAF officials, how do u expect PAF to go for it.
4th LCA almost costs the same as of Mirage2000, which is faaaaaaaaaar batter than LCA. Why not buy Mirage2000. (Some say LCA falls into a better version of mirage-3 which we already have...its like upgraded mirage3 at the price of Mirage2000, what a rip off)
5th, JF-17 takes less time in production. It took only 4 yrs to hit production & would be ready to come out in 2k6, while LCA hit abt 10 yrs ago & the makers r asking for a bit more time. Just pray it doesnt end up like Arjun Tank.
Also J-10 is a better option, it falls between some where near F-18s league & can become better than F-18 with some good Wester Avionics which Pak can put in when they purchase J-10.
6th, PAK bought the technology of JF-17 from China, which makes JF-17 its own & we can produce it as we want & as many we want.
JOINT PRODUCTION:
1st,Considering the relations of two nations, there is no chance.
2nd, China will not mind any joint venture between Pakistan & India but military joint venture will piss them off, as that AC of what ever we produce can be thread to China in case of any armed conflict with India.
On the other hand if the AC we make comes out to be a world class, Pakistan wont hesitate to pass it on to China which will piss of India.
China doesnt even allow Pak to have any ventures with USA, thats why PAF is looking into French & Italian Avionics market for JF-17.
omegasigma
New Member
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?
I was only doing a long-term benefits assesment on co-operation between the countries. Well, I think that in the long term Chinese and Indian interests are making these giants work more closely. China has already officialy endorsed a UN Security Council candidature to India. See the following links for more information:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Security_Council
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/FJ26Df01.html
China has done this even in the face of strong opposition from India. China has also recognized Arunachal Pradesh as an integral part of Indian territory. In return India has recognized the Chinese position in Taiwan and Tibet.
I will go as far as hypothesizing the possible collaboration between India and China in the long-term on a comprehensive anti-missile defence for the region.
I was only doing a long-term benefits assesment on co-operation between the countries. Well, I think that in the long term Chinese and Indian interests are making these giants work more closely. China has already officialy endorsed a UN Security Council candidature to India. See the following links for more information:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Security_Council
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/FJ26Df01.html
China has done this even in the face of strong opposition from India. China has also recognized Arunachal Pradesh as an integral part of Indian territory. In return India has recognized the Chinese position in Taiwan and Tibet.
I will go as far as hypothesizing the possible collaboration between India and China in the long-term on a comprehensive anti-missile defence for the region.
mysterious
New Member
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?
My friend, your long-term assessment with all due respect is a bit of a fantasy rather than a practical one. China and Pakistan have more in common than Pakistan and India and/or China and India. Some recent mature moves by the two Asian giants don't really mean that they've become best buddies. Its just them being careful and nothing much. Now as for Sabre's 'rumour' report, I hope that comes to pass as then PAF would have ample enough funds for a nice shopping spree. :smokingc:
My friend, your long-term assessment with all due respect is a bit of a fantasy rather than a practical one. China and Pakistan have more in common than Pakistan and India and/or China and India. Some recent mature moves by the two Asian giants don't really mean that they've become best buddies. Its just them being careful and nothing much. Now as for Sabre's 'rumour' report, I hope that comes to pass as then PAF would have ample enough funds for a nice shopping spree. :smokingc:
omegasigma
New Member
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?
I am not expecting China to change it's cozy military relationaship with Pakistan. I am only saying that the strength of the relationship has become somewhat suspect after China endorsed very strongly India's permanent candidature to the United Nations Security Council, even under strong Pakistani opposition. Also a very durable foundation has been laid to the India China relationship after both resolved some major border disputes.
I am not expecting China to change it's cozy military relationaship with Pakistan. I am only saying that the strength of the relationship has become somewhat suspect after China endorsed very strongly India's permanent candidature to the United Nations Security Council, even under strong Pakistani opposition. Also a very durable foundation has been laid to the India China relationship after both resolved some major border disputes.
Now that's a first I've heard. Sindh has lot in common with Gujarat; Punjab (Pak) has a lot common with Punjab(India), PoK (Azad Kashmir) has a lot in common with J&K; Northerm Areas are very similar to Ladakh and Himachal.
Like it or not India and Pak have too much in common for you to deny. Infact Northen India has more in common with Pak than South India and East. But all of these are bought together by democracy and secularism.
Now let's compare India an China:
(1) Large population, mostly in rural areas;
(2) Emerging middle class
(3) Complimentry economies
(4) Regional powers
(5) Economical reach
(6) Advanced Space programs
(7) Troubled with islamic extremism
.. and a lot more that don't come to my mind this morning. I'm not saying India and China are friends/allies; but they will have a mutually benefitial relationship once the border issue is settled.
omegasigma
New Member
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?
I will extend Sri's list of commanalities between India and China:
8. #1 and #2 fastest growing economies of the world.
9. Good higher education system.
10. High agricultural output.
11. One is the manufacturing hub of the world while the other is the back-office and information technology hub.
12. Common trade interests (see India-China WTO partnership info at: http://www.rediff.com/money/2003/jun/27wto.htm)
Here is a policy direction by the Chinese Embassy in India: http://www.chinaembassy.org.in/eng/sgxw/t174131.htm
Also see: http://www.siis.org.cn/english/journal/2004/2/Zhao Gancheng.htm[/quote]
I will extend Sri's list of commanalities between India and China:
8. #1 and #2 fastest growing economies of the world.
9. Good higher education system.
10. High agricultural output.
11. One is the manufacturing hub of the world while the other is the back-office and information technology hub.
12. Common trade interests (see India-China WTO partnership info at: http://www.rediff.com/money/2003/jun/27wto.htm)
Here is a policy direction by the Chinese Embassy in India: http://www.chinaembassy.org.in/eng/sgxw/t174131.htm
Also see: http://www.siis.org.cn/english/journal/2004/2/Zhao Gancheng.htm[/quote]
mysterious
New Member
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?
My bad for not clarifying that I was only pointing out to the political scenario betweeon the trio. You guys really get stuck at the face-value of some comments. :smokingc:
My bad for not clarifying that I was only pointing out to the political scenario betweeon the trio. You guys really get stuck at the face-value of some comments. :smokingc:
omegasigma
New Member
Coming back to the topic, I don't think Pakistan has enough buying power to get a credible strength of the state-of-the-art in fighter technology. It will have to purchase second/third hand aircrafts or some third generation makes.
mysterious
New Member
Some would call $4b (plus what the Senate might give) a good enough amount to go shopping for a state-of-the-art fighter jet. :smokingc:omegasigma said:
omegasigma
New Member
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?
Is the $4 billion for just procurement, or also support and infrastructure? Please would you post a link to a press release regarding this?
Thank you.
Is the $4 billion for just procurement, or also support and infrastructure? Please would you post a link to a press release regarding this?
Thank you.
omegasigma
New Member
Re: Which Aircraft Should PAF opt for?
According to the CIA factbook (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/pk.html) the Pakistani GDP based on PPP is $318 billion in 2003. The military expenditure is 3.9% of GDP. The actual military expenditure for 2003 was $2.7 billion.
Are you saying that just for the PAF aquisition of new fighter aircrafts, the total expenditure will be quarupled?
According to the CIA factbook (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/pk.html) the Pakistani GDP based on PPP is $318 billion in 2003. The military expenditure is 3.9% of GDP. The actual military expenditure for 2003 was $2.7 billion.
Are you saying that just for the PAF aquisition of new fighter aircrafts, the total expenditure will be quarupled?