Ukranian Crisis

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Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Feanor, I did state I was alarmed and the truer number - whether they eventually be higher or lower - wil come out in time...

The UN civilian casualties vs. various-sourced, unsubstantiated military loses - I agree, don't stack up. Throughout this conflict, it has been extremely difficult to believe anything.. from both sides.
Yep. But we can certainly say that some numbers are quite unlikely. Like certain Ukrainian social media sources claiming tens of thousands of Russian dead. In my opinion 5000 Russian military is a similarly unlikely figure.

Understand you state its your opinion regarding the article, so going further, what is realistic in your view? Just curious
For what? Total dead? Russian military? Rebel forces as a whole?
 
Yep. But we can certainly say that some numbers are quite unlikely. Like certain Ukrainian social media sources claiming tens of thousands of Russian dead. In my opinion 5000 Russian military is a similarly unlikely figure.

For what? Total dead? Russian military? Rebel forces as a whole?
You provided excellent analytical updates, throughout this conflict and the Georgian conflict back in 08' and I'm curious to your thoughts, on RF military forces KIA in this Ukrainian conflict? Not including ethnic-Russian Ukrainian Rebels, Russian volunteers (not enlisted in the Military) or Int'l volunteers..

I think you're in a better position to comment on this particular subject than most on here, so I value your opinion looking at this further.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
You provided excellent analytical updates, throughout this conflict and the Georgian conflict back in 08' and I'm curious to your thoughts, on RF military forces KIA in this Ukrainian conflict? Not including ethnic-Russian Ukrainian Rebels, Russian volunteers (not enlisted in the Military) or Int'l volunteers..

I think you're in a better position to comment on this particular subject than most on here, so I value your opinion looking at this further.
I think they're low. Very low. Russian forces only get involved in a few key operations, and seem to arrive with what (for this conflict) is overwhelming force. In the case of Logvinovo it appears that a Tank Btln Tactical Group from the Russian 5th Tank Bde was used, with T-72B3 tanks for their standard equipment (the most modern and capable tanks in this conflict so far). Logvinovo was seized relatively quickly, no protracted fighting, and the Ukrainian counter-attacks were very watery. The eventual retreat corridor for Ukrainian forces seems to have bypassed Logvinovo entirely, and the fighting during their withdrawal seems to have been with primarily rebel troops.

Their participation in the destruction of Sector D (Ukrainian deployments along the border last summer) was primarily artillery and UAV. Probably entirely blood-less.

The battle of Ilovaysk is a major grey area. Two T-72B3 tanks were destroyed, and a BTR-82AM also was at the same time, but not in the same location. So during that time it appears that significant numbers of Russian troops got involved in heavy fighting. However the battle was extremely one-sided, ending in the destruction and slaughter of the Ukrainian troops trying to exit the pocket with their heavy equipment intact, even with two tanks down, the casualties would still not have been too high.

The big grey area is the Russian military personnel embedded with the rebels directly. Logistics for the rebels are run by the Russian military, but those don't participate in the fighting directly. Rebel air defense systems (the sophisticates ones like the Tors and Pantsyrs) are Russian-operated, but we have 1 very sketchy report of the loss of one Pantsyr (probably little more then braggery, as no photos, and no substantiating reports surfaced). The UkrAF has no real SEAD/DEAD capabilities, and has essentially stopped participating in this war due to high casualties and low effectiveness. Russian EW and ELINT assets are in play (potentially OsNaz GRU, though regular R.E.B. troops are also possible) but again casualties wouldn't be high, and would be hard to confirm.

My personal estimate (educated guess) is medium double digits (40-50-60ish) for Russian military dead. Not Russian military volunteers who leave their units and join rebel forces, but actual dedicated Russian military deployments.

It's nearly impossible to estimate how many Russian service members on special leave that go to fight for the rebels have died, because there's no way to trace their employment or deployment among rebel formations.

EDIT: A separate thought. A lot of military equipment that must have come from Russia has been found destroyed. In particular this includes BMD-2s and BTR-80s with NVG gear that's clearly post-Soviet of Russian origin. Also recently retired Grad systems that may have come from units that have gotten the Tornado-G replacements. These weapons look like they came from active Russian units, but mostly were used by the rebels. This complicates accurate estimates of Russian military regulars getting involved.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
I'm making this a separate post, but it's related to the query about casualties. It appears that two T-72B3 tanks were destroyed near Logvinovo, when Ukrainian troops counter-attacked in an attempt to re-open the road. What this means for casualties is unclear. There is an interview with allegedly one of the Russian tankers that took part in the battle, but some of details are sketchy, and the whole thing is rather murky.
 
Thanks for your analysis Feanor. :)

The 'special leave' RF service member numbers, I don't think we will ever see the true figures regarding casualties. The definition itself is ambiguous at best.

Note; Ukraine Miliatry state ~1.5k KIA Ukrainian service personnel throughout this conflict (1 year). Not stating this is fact, but I'm sure it's reasonable. I'm not sure this includes the right-sector/ nationalist btln casualties?
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Thanks for your analysis Feanor. :)

The 'special leave' RF service member numbers, I don't think we will ever see the true figures regarding casualties. The definition itself is ambiguous at best.

Note; Ukraine Miliatry state ~1.5k KIA Ukrainian service personnel throughout this conflict (1 year). Not stating this is fact, but I'm sure it's reasonable. I'm not sure this includes the right-sector/ nationalist btln casualties?
Nobody knows what it includes or excludes, but reports of mis-filed deaths, or war dead written off as deserters, are far too numerous to disregard. Honestly I take the Ukrainian sources number of their KIA as the "too low" estimate.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Update.

Casualty list of Ukrainian vehicles lost since 1 Jan 2015. All of it is backed with photos from lostarmor. It's 64 tanks, 122 BMP based vehicles, 40 BTRs, 21 BRDMs, 40 MT-LBs, and bunch of other stuff. If you want the detailed list, I can translate.

bmpd - Громадные потери украинÑкой боевой техники Ñ Ð½Ð°Ñ‡Ð°Ð»Ð° 2015 года

Kiev has halted withdrawals of heavy weapons from the conflict zone. They say they're waiting for OSCE confirmation that the rebels are doing the same.

 ÂÇÃËßÄ / Êèåâ ðåøèë ïðèîñòàíîâèòü îòâîä òÿæåëîãî âîîðóæåíèÿ èç Äîíáàññà

16 more Ukrainian war dead were removed from the Donetsk airport, and handed over to the Ukrainians in the presence of OSCE observers.

Тела еще 16 украинÑких бойцов вывезли из донецкого аÑропорта

Officers councils in Ukrainian combat units are demanding a replacement of all the higher staff due to their incompetence. They describe in detail the events during the retreat from Debal'tsevo, and highlight the general incompetence and lack of presence of higher level staff. They talk about being unable to trust their leadership.

bmpd - УкраинÑкие офицеры требуют Ñмены выÑшего военного руководÑтва
Ð”ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ ÐœÐ¾ÐºÑ€ÑƒÑˆÐ¸Ð½ - Бои за Дебальцево. ВерÑÐ¸Ñ Ð¾Ñ„Ð¸Ñ†ÐµÑ€Ñких Ñобраний бывших окруженцев

A Ukrainian column of the Saxon APCs had an accident, one flipping over and killing the driver, the other crashing into the middle divider on the road.

Берлога Бронемедведа - УкраинÑкие "СакÑоны": первые потери
Andrei-bt - Про "СакÑоны" ч. 2
Ð”ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ ÐœÐ¾ÐºÑ€ÑƒÑˆÐ¸Ð½ - Saxon на пути в ÐТО

Ukraine says the rebels have restored the rail-hub in Debal'tsevo and a train of munitions was unloaded there recently.

Note, Ukraine earlier boasted that they destroyed the hub beyond repair turning it into a "moonscape".

Вахтенный журнал Ñтареющего пирата - ЕÑли нельзÑ, но очень хочетÑÑ, то можно...

Lots of photos of Ukrainian military. Note the considerable improvement in gear from last year.

Вахтенный журнал Ñтареющего пирата - Многоликие ВСУ. 100 Ñ Ð³Ð°ÐºÐ¾Ð¼ фоток...
Вахтенный журнал Ñтареющего пирата - ВСУ ÐТОшит...

A photoset of a Ukrainian army platoon near Volnovakha.

codename_it: Быт украинÑких Ñолдат на примере отдельно взÑтого подразделениÑ.

A Ukrainian army training camp near Chugueva.

codename_it: Тренировочный лагерь ВСУ под Чугуевым. Ð‘Ð¾Ð»ÑŒÑˆÐ°Ñ Ð¿Ð¾Ð´Ð±Ð¾Ñ€ÐºÐ° фотографий.

Rebel photos from Debal'tsevo.

Вахтенный журнал Ñтареющего пирата - ДебальцевÑкий Ðрмагеддон...

Photos.

Вахтенный журнал Ñтареющего пирата - Украина по две Ñтороны прицела...
Вахтенный журнал Ñтареющего пирата - Украина по две Ñтороны прицела...
Вахтенный журнал Ñтареющего пирата - ВСРin action...
Вахтенный журнал Ñтареющего пирата - Украина по две Ñтороны прицела...
Вахтенный журнал Ñтареющего пирата - Украина по две Ñтороны прицела...
Вахтенный журнал Ñтареющего пирата - Украина по две Ñтороны прицела...
Вахтенный журнал Ñтареющего пирата - Украина по две Ñтороны прицела...
Вахтенный журнал Ñтареющего пирата - Украина по две Ñтороны прицела...
Вахтенный журнал Ñтареющего пирата - Украина по две Ñтороны прицела...
Вахтенный журнал Ñтареющего пирата - Украина по две Ñтороны прицела...
Вахтенный журнал Ñтареющего пирата - ВСРin action...
Вахтенный журнал Ñтареющего пирата - Украина по две Ñтороны прицела...
Вахтенный журнал Ñтареющего пирата - ВСУ ÐТОшит...
Вахтенный журнал Ñтареющего пирата - Украина по две Ñтороны прицела...
Вахтенный журнал Ñтареющего пирата - Украина по две Ñтороны прицела...
Вахтенный журнал Ñтареющего пирата - Украина по две Ñтороны прицела...
Ð“Ð°Ð»ÐµÑ€ÐµÑ Ð²Ð¾ÐµÐ½Ð½Ð¾Ð¹ фотографии - СепаратиÑÑ‚Ñ‹ из ДÐР
Вахтенный журнал Ñтареющего пирата - Украина по две Ñтороны прицела...

Photos of the 95th Airmobile Bde passing through Kiev.

Вахтенный журнал Ñтареющего пирата - 95-Ñ Ð¾Ñ‚Ð´ÐµÐ»ÑŒÐ½Ð°Ñ Ð°ÑÑ€Ð¾Ð¼Ð¾Ð±Ð¸Ð»ÑŒÐ½Ð°Ñ Ð±Ñ€Ð¸Ð³Ð°Ð´Ð° Ð’Ñ‹Ñокомобильних деÑантных войÑк Вооруженных Ñил Украины...

A Ukrainian presidential adviser says that part of the draft brings drug addicts, criminals, and idiots into the armed forces. He suggests starting a western style recruiting campaign.

 ÂÇÃËßÄ / Ñîâåòíèê Ïîðîøåíêî:  ðàìêàõ ìîáèëèçàöèè íàáèðàþò íàðêîìàíîâ è èäèîòîâ

Rebels find a Ukrainian Skif ATGM under the ruins in Donetsk airport.

Ð’ Донецке во Ð²Ñ€ÐµÐ¼Ñ Ñ€Ð°Ð·Ð±Ð¾Ñ€Ð° завалов обнаружили украинÑкий ракетный ÐºÐ¾Ð¼Ð¿Ð»ÐµÐºÑ "Скиф"

Production of the Bars-6 armored cars has begun in Ukraine. What this means in practice remains to be seen. Since this year Ukrainian troops have also received 8 BTR-4E APCs, and one overhauled Mi-8. They also got 10 Kraz trucks and 4 Spartan armored cars.

Ðа Украине началоÑÑŒ производÑтво модернизированных бронеавтомобилей БарÑ-6
Сухопутные войÑка Украины получили новые бронемашины и вертолет

Ukrainian volunteers are making improvised tripods for machineguns take off of vehicles.

bmpd - УкраинÑкие волонтеры делают Ñтанки под пулеметы

Trials of the BMP-1 upgrade with the Shkval combat module have begun.

Ðа Украине приÑтупили к иÑпытаниÑм модернизированной верÑии БМП-1

The US has announced a new package of non-lethal aid including UAVs, Humvees, counter-mortar radars, NVG, first aid kits, etc.

bmpd - СШРобъÑвили о новом пакете военной помощи Украине
Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: ÑØÀ ïîîáåùàëè îòïðàâèòü íà Óêðàèíó íîâûè àðìåéñêèå âåçäåõîäû

A big ceremony was held in Yekaterinburg for volunteers heading to Donbass.

Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: Ïðåññà: èç Åêàòåðèíáóðãà íà Äîíáàññ îòïðàâèëèñü äîáðîâîëüöû ïîä íàïóòñòâèå ñâÿùåííèêà "áèòü ôàøèñòñêóþ ñâîëî÷ü"

The EU is blocking Russia's reactor deal with Hungary.

Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: Åâðîñîþç áëîêèðîâàë ÿäåðíóþ ñäåëêó ÐÔ ñ Âåíãðèåé íà 12 ìëðä åâðî

112th Bde of MVD troops has been formed in Crimea, by Russia.

bmpd - Внутренние войÑка МВД РоÑÑии в Крыму

Ukraine says they will send the Russian movie about annexing Crimea to the Hague.

Ð”ÐµÐ½Ð¸Ñ ÐœÐ¾ÐºÑ€ÑƒÑˆÐ¸Ð½ - Как говорил товарищ Бендер...

The US appears to be preparing to supply Ukraine with nuclear fuel. However last time this ended with 175 mln USD in damages, and almost caused a nuclear reactor meltdown.

The US has however decided to delay the program to train Ukrainian national guard.

bmpd - РиÑки и недомолвки ÑотрудничеÑтва Украины и СШРв облаÑти атомной Ñнергетики
Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: Âàøèíãòîí îòëîæèë ðåàëèçàöèþ ïðîãðàììû ïî îáó÷åíèþ áîéöîâ íàöèîíàëüíîé ãâàðäèè Óêðàèíû

Russia has exited the Conventional Forces in Europe treaty, calling it obsolete.

Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com ::  ÍÀÒÎ ðàçî÷àðîâàíû ðåøåíèåì Ðîññèè âûéòè èç "ðåëèêòîâîãî" ÄÎÂÑÅ è åå íàìåðåíèåì íå âîçîáíîâëÿòü ñâîå ó÷àñòèå â äîãîâîðå

The IMF has approved another 17.5 bln dollars in aid to Ukraine.

Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: ÌÂÔ îäîáðèë ïðîãðàììó ïîìîùè Óêðàèíå íà 17,5 ìèëëèàðäà äîëëàðîâ

The US has passed a new round of sanctions against Russia.

Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: ÑØÀ óæåñòî÷èëè ñàíêöèè ïðîòèâ Ðîññèè - â ñïèñêå îêàçàëñÿ ôèëîñîô Àëåêñàíäð Äóãèí

Merkel supports the idea of keeping the sanctions against Russia in place.

Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: Ìåðêåëü âûñêàçàëàñü çà ñîõðàíåíèå ñàíêöèé ïðîòèâ Ðîññèè

The German company RWE is trying to get another discount on Russian gas from Gazprom. However they're part of the plans for reverse deliveries of gas to Ukraine.

 ÂÇÃËßÄ / Íåìöû äàâÿò íà Ãàçïðîì â ïîëüçó Óêðàèíû

A Finnish journalist that reported on government violations of the ceasefire has been beaten in Kiev. The journalist says that although he has only spent 10 days in Ukraine, he has discovered a reality very different from what newspapers in Finland report. He also says that there is a serious problem with freedom of speech in Ukraine. He was present at a court case where an opposition party was being banned, and calls it a circus.

 ÂÇÃËßÄ / Íà Óêðàèíå èçáèò ñîîáùèâøèé î íàðóøåíèè Êèåâîì ïåðåìèðèÿ æóðíàëèñò

The Ukrainian Rada is going to run the project to decentralize power in Ukraine.

Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: Óêðàèíñêàÿ Ðàäà çàéìåòñÿ äåöåíòðàëèçàöèåé

Two Russian volunteers were buried in Tol'yatti, having died in the fighting around Debatl'tsevo.

Íîâîñòè NEWSru.com :: Â Òîëüÿòòè ïîõîðîíèëè "äâîèõ ãåðîåâ Äîíáàññà": îíè íå òî äåñàíòíèêè, íå òî èìåëè îòíîøåíèå ê ïîëèöèè

100-200 judges in Ukraine may be prosecuted, for participating in the prosecution of Maydan protesters under Yanukovich.

 ÂÇÃËßÄ / Âëàñòè Óêðàèíû ðåøèëè ëèøèòü íåïðèêîñíîâåííîñòè 200 ñóäåé çà ïðèãîâîðû ó÷àñòíèêàì Ìàéäàíà

Ukrainian gold reserves have reached a new low.

КрыÑа из нержавеющей Ñтали - Януковича нет, но он продолжает краÑÑ‚ÑŒ: золотовалютные резервы ÐБУ доÑтигли минимума
 

swerve

Super Moderator
How do you know it isn't in-fighting between the ex-Yanukovich lot over the secret overseas accounts? Or members of the public getting their own back for crimes they'd managed to get away with? Or people who know too much about what some of their old cronies did being silenced, lest they blab to those now in charge?

All of those are plausible, but I see you've made up your mind.
 

gazzzwp

Member
I find this interesting

BBC News - Yanukovych ally Peklushenko in new Ukraine mystery death

This is the fifth former Yanukovych aide to die in six weeks.

Ukraine's new rulers are every bit as crooked as those they deposed.
Rob there is a completely different way to look at this. For decades the Ukraine has been under the iron yolk of Soviet corruption and then Russian. It's not surprising that the country has chosen the path of reform and an alliance with the West simply to draw a line under the corruption and begin afresh.

So sorry if it sounds biased but it strikes me that what you are seeing is nothing but the influence of the old days.
 

stojo

Member
Rob there is a completely different way to look at this. For decades the Ukraine has been under the iron yolk of Soviet corruption and then Russian.
Interesting that decades long history of independent Ukraine, has seen pretty much everyone's corruption, except Ukrainian.
 

KiwiRob

Well-Known Member
How do you know it isn't in-fighting between the ex-Yanukovich lot over the secret overseas accounts? Or members of the public getting their own back for crimes they'd managed to get away with? Or people who know too much about what some of their old cronies did being silenced, lest they blab to those now in charge?

All of those are plausible, but I see you've made up your mind.
It looks like you've made your mind up as well. As they say if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck it's probably a duck. It's nothing more than cleaning house, you gotta remember the new leadership in Ukraine are as corrupt as the old leadership, all it is are new faces, same games.

Rob there is a completely different way to look at this. For decades the Ukraine has been under the iron yolk of Soviet corruption and then Russian. It's not surprising that the country has chosen the path of reform and an alliance with the West simply to draw a line under the corruption and begin afresh.
Ukraine likes to blame others for their own incompetence, that's about all there too it as far as I'm concerned.

My question is who is going to foot the bill for fixing Ukraine after this is finished? It's going to make the bailouts after the GFC look tiny, if Ukraine was a house I'd pull it down, it can't be rebuilt, everything needs to start afresh. I don't actually believe Ukraine has enough people with the ability and integrity to actually do this. It's almost like the EU should put in a governor and import civil servants to get the country up and running for a least a couple of decades until the Ukrainians can be trusted to run the place.
 
My question is who is going to foot the bill for fixing Ukraine after this is finished? It's going to make the bailouts after the GFC look tiny, if Ukraine was a house I'd pull it down, it can't be rebuilt, everything needs to start afresh. I don't actually believe Ukraine has enough people with the ability and integrity to actually do this. It's almost like the EU should put in a governor and import civil servants to get the country up and running for a least a couple of decades until the Ukrainians can be trusted to run the place.
Quite a bold biased statement overall.. particularly 'It's going to make the bailouts after the GFC look tiny'. If that is the case - You need a better grip on your economics, if you honestly believe that is true.
 
Quite a bold biased statement overall.. particularly 'It's going to make the bailouts after the GFC look tiny'. If that is the case - You need a better grip on your economics, if you honestly believe that is true.
Well as I understand it, bail outs would probably be a good thing. Their is so much currency in the system a Ukraine bail out would help soak up some of the excess and legacy credit in the markets and maintain some money velocity and avoid any confidence crash in any one currency. Keep the musical chairs going for a bit longer. I don't know what the monies to goods/services ratio is now but I don't know if anyone has any idea now with the amount of currency creation that the world has had in the last 15 years.
 

BlueRose

New Member
My question is who is going to foot the bill for fixing Ukraine after this is finished? It's going to make the bailouts after the GFC look tiny, if Ukraine was a house I'd pull it down, it can't be rebuilt, everything needs to start afresh. I don't actually believe Ukraine has enough people with the ability and integrity to actually do this. It's almost like the EU should put in a governor and import civil servants to get the country up and running for a least a couple of decades until the Ukrainians can be trusted to run the place.
Your points are valid and sound. It's completely obvious Ukraine is in a economic debacle. What we will see is an influx if Turkish immigrants, and immigrants from various parts of Africa and the Middle east flock there. Though, that's assuming if Ukraine won't be under control by Russia in the future. They will just further themselves in debt that way, and become another welfare state that hands out handouts to immigrants after some of the work is done.
 

Preceptor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Please keep discussion focused on the military/defence situation in Ukraine, and away from any pro/anti- commentary about one (or more) side or another.
-Preceptor
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
How do you know it isn't in-fighting between the ex-Yanukovich lot over the secret overseas accounts? Or members of the public getting their own back for crimes they'd managed to get away with? Or people who know too much about what some of their old cronies did being silenced, lest they blab to those now in charge?

All of those are plausible, but I see you've made up your mind.
There could be a lot of reasons, but there is a most likely reason. That having been said, even if they're dying for other reasons, the new rulers are still crooked. Unrelated to the deaths of Yanukovich's former aids.

Yes, Rob, we all know your pro-Russian tendencies because of your business interests. Stop sucking up to Putin for some more brownie points.
Let's keep this civil. It's one thing to be snide (although that's still rude) while making a point. It's another when your post does nothing but personally attack another member.
 
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