Ukranian Crisis

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gazzzwp

Member
There could be a lot of reasons, but there is a most likely reason. That having been said, even if they're dying for other reasons, the new rulers are still crooked. Unrelated to the deaths of Yanukovich's former aids.



Let's keep this civil. It's one thing to be snide (although that's still rude) while making a point. It's another when your post does nothing but personally attack another member.
Cold War 2 is definitely with us as a direct result of the Ukrainian problem.

Apologies for posting this again, but it just demonstrates how seriously the US is taking the latest Russian build up aggressive posturing.

Amid NATO exercises, Russia puts Northern Fleet on 'full alert' - CNN.com
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
As an Asian, I'm not really follow on what will happen to Ukraine simply since many in here already see Western power divided on this. As such we can only see that Ukraine it self will be in the end divided permanently between Russian minority and what's left of Ukraine it self.

As Cold War 2...well with what US stances lately against China..and now Russia..It seems US has guarantee her self cold war adversaries on those 2...The difference between CW1 and now CW2...Those 2 especially China become more importance to World Economies...as such even US can't isolate them anymore from world economies no matter how much the US right still hoped and dream on...

This is going to be different than previous Cold War....
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Quick Update

In the small town of Konstantinovka there was a fatal accident, where a civilian car was run over by a Ukrainian Army BMD. One 8 year old girl was killed, and her elderly aunt taken to the hospital. The four service members involved in the accident are currently under arrest. The result has been a series of violent riots by the locals. It's unlikely that the accident is the sole cause, more like it was the last drop. Ukrainian army barracks in the town were set on fire, and the city administration seized by the locals, who flew a DNR flag from the roof of the building. Military vehicles were pelted with rocks, a couple of MVD vehicles (a bus and a jeep) were lit on fire, and destroyed. The city police was given permission to use lethal force, but so far seems to have refrained from doing so. Given the low reliability of local police forces in towns like this, I wouldn't be surprised if they end up joining the rioters.

This is very VERY important, because the town is very close to the front line. It's just north-west of Gorlovka, and west of Artemovsk. If this town falls to the rebels, on account of the riots, and the weakening of the front line in that area, Artemovsk would be threatened, and the cease-fire would be in tatters.

ÐœÐ¸Ð»Ð¸Ñ†Ð¸Ñ ÑƒÑтановила зачинщика акции протеÑта под Донецком - BBC Russian
КрыÑа из нержавеющей Ñтали - Виновники ДТП в КонÑтантиновке, двое военноÑлужащих, задержаны и переданы в военную прокуратуру
ÌÂÄ Óêðàèíû ãðîçèò íàêàçàòü îðãàíèçàòîðîâ åñïîðÿäêîâ ïîñëå ÄÒÏ â Êîíñòàíòèíîâêå - Ãàçåòà.Ru | Îáùåñòâî
Бунт в КонÑтантиновке: жители атакуют общежитие военных (фото, видео) | podrobnosti.ua
 

gazzzwp

Member
Quick Update

In the small town of Konstantinovka there was a fatal accident, where a civilian car was run over by a Ukrainian Army BMD. One 8 year old girl was killed, and her elderly aunt taken to the hospital. The four service members involved in the accident are currently under arrest. The result has been a series of violent riots by the locals. It's unlikely that the accident is the sole cause, more like it was the last drop. Ukrainian army barracks in the town were set on fire, and the city administration seized by the locals, who flew a DNR flag from the roof of the building. Military vehicles were pelted with rocks, a couple of MVD vehicles (a bus and a jeep) were lit on fire, and destroyed. The city police was given permission to use lethal force, but so far seems to have refrained from doing so. Given the low reliability of local police forces in towns like this, I wouldn't be surprised if they end up joining the rioters.
Feanor I'm wondering if all of this excessive military posturing by Russia is in preparation for phase 2 of the ground war. Take a look:

http://rt.com/news/241441-strategic-bombers-crimea-redeployment/

What on earth could all of this be for?

If the conflict is restarted and NATO attempts to interfere is all of this some sort of pre-warning to make them think again do you think?
 
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Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
I wonder if Abkhazia will be next, South Ossetia is now Russia.
Putin signs treaty integrating South Ossetia into Russia
That's not what the treaty does...

It subordinates the armed forces of S.O. to Russian command, and in exchange guarantees that Russia will step in if S.O. is ever attacked. Russia will also provide financial aid to help S.O. raise salaries for state employees, and free spots in universities for students from S.O. It simplifies border crossing procedures, and sets up a system for exchanging information between Russian and S.O. MVD.

A similar treaty with Abkhazia has already been signed.
 
Quick Update

In the small town of Konstantinovka there was a fatal accident, where a civilian car was run over by a Ukrainian Army BMD. One 8 year old girl was killed, and her elderly aunt taken to the hospital. The four service members involved in the accident are currently under arrest. The result has been a series of violent riots by the locals..
Driver was drunk apparently and a number of suspects have arrested and are in court, for instigating the riots in Konstantinovka.

Seperately, you heard anything concrete of fighting NW of Luhansk, near Stanitsia? Or is this just an isolated flare up?

Cheers
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Driver was drunk apparently and a number of suspects have arrested and are in court, for instigating the riots in Konstantinovka.

Seperately, you heard anything concrete of fighting NW of Luhansk, near Stanitsia? Or is this just an isolated flare up?

Cheers
Haven't heard anything un-concrete either. There were no major troop formations there at any point recently, only some squishy checkpoints. Though I suppose it would be clever for one or the other side to secretly relocate a significant unit over there and push hard and fast. But honestly, I've got no actual info.
 
Haven't heard anything un-concrete either. There were no major troop formations there at any point recently, only some squishy checkpoints. Though I suppose it would be clever for one or the other side to secretly relocate a significant unit over there and push hard and fast. But honestly, I've got no actual info.
Ok, thanks for reply.

Could you also possibly answer a question relating to Ukrianian Airmobile Bgde TO&E compositions? I understand that a Russian Airmobile (IFV) Bgde have approximately ~110 BMD1/2/3/1KSh vehicles. What is Ukraine using for its x3 A/mobile Bgdes (prior to conflict)? I cannot source anything reliable in terms of recent BMD-1/2's figures (all vague and sub 100 vehicles).

They had quite a few BMD-1 in storage I believe, but that was '95..
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Feanor I'm wondering if all of this excessive military posturing by Russia is in preparation for phase 2 of the ground war. Take a look:

http://rt.com/news/241441-strategic-bombers-crimea-redeployment/

What on earth could all of this be for?

If the conflict is restarted and NATO attempts to interfere is all of this some sort of pre-warning to make them think again do you think?
They look like typical Russian strategic exercises. Just really big.

Ok, thanks for reply.

Could you also possibly answer a question relating to Ukrianian Airmobile Bgde TO&E compositions? I understand that a Russian Airmobile (IFV) Bgde have approximately ~110 BMD1/2/3/1KSh vehicles. What is Ukraine using for its x3 A/mobile Bgdes (prior to conflict)? I cannot source anything reliable in terms of recent BMD-1/2's figures (all vague and sub 100 vehicles).

They had quite a few BMD-1 in storage I believe, but that was '95..
Russia doesn't have any airmobile brigades. Russia has para-assault brigades, that don't use IFVs. They use unarmored trucks and jeeps. Actually at least one Ukrainian airmobile brigade also used UAZ jeeps, and little else. Russia has para-drop divisions, that use IFVs. Namely the BMD-1/2/4. Some of the brigades had BMDs, some had trucks and jeeps, and once the fighting started they were given whatever was available, including BTRs, and more trucks.
 
Russia doesn't have any airmobile brigades. Russia has para-assault brigades, that don't use IFVs. They use unarmored trucks and jeeps. Actually at least one Ukrainian airmobile brigade also used UAZ jeeps, and little else. Russia has para-drop divisions, that use IFVs. Namely the BMD-1/2/4. Some of the brigades had BMDs, some had trucks and jeeps, and once the fighting started they were given whatever was available, including BTRs, and more trucks.
Thanks Feanor. Apologies, I should have corrected myself.

The US OPFOR document I have to hand, also clearly state them as RF Airborne Bgdes (IFV-Div). Ukraine has x2 Airborne (1 newly formed) Bgdes - do you know if they're para-drops or para-assault equipment-wise or just like airmobile bgdes, pretty much anything they can get their hands on?

Sorry for the queries and cheers again
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Thanks Feanor. Apologies, I should have corrected myself.

The US OPFOR document I have to hand, also clearly state them as RF Airborne Bgdes (IFV-Div). Ukraine has x2 Airborne (1 newly formed) Bgdes - do you know if they're para-drops or para-assault equipment-wise or just like airmobile bgdes, pretty much anything they can get their hands on?

Sorry for the queries and cheers again
Ukraine does not have para-drop or para-assault bdes. They have airmobile bdes.

As far as equipment goes, pretty much anything they can get their hands on. They've lost so many vehicles since the beginning of this war that they really can't make homogenous formations. And of course they do dumb things like handing out their few new vehicles in small batches to different units, instead of re-equipping a single one. At this point I doubt if there's enough BMDs left in Ukraine to fully equip a single brigade, not to mention there's no reason to use them. Ukraine doesn't really have the desire or ability to perform a brigade level airdrop, and otherwise they're worse then the BMP-1/2 respectively.

Don't get me wrong, they will keep using the BMDs they have because they have them. But don't expect the Airmobile formations to look very different from the regular infantry. Not to mention that none of them actually operate as brigades. From what I've been able to gather, company-plus sized elements are pretty much it, with a few btln sized ones here and there.
 
Ukraine does not have para-drop or para-assault bdes. They have airmobile bdes.

As far as equipment goes, pretty much anything they can get their hands on. They've lost so many vehicles since the beginning of this war that they really can't make homogenous formations. And of course they do dumb things like handing out their few new vehicles in small batches to different units, instead of re-equipping a single one. At this point I doubt if there's enough BMDs left in Ukraine to fully equip a single brigade, not to mention there's no reason to use them. Ukraine doesn't really have the desire or ability to perform a brigade level airdrop, and otherwise they're worse then the BMP-1/2 respectively.
Cheers again

Then why the distinction? Example 25th Airborne (and the recent 81st Airborne) vs. 79th Airmobile?

I think you mentioned the new 81st Bgde, as 'Para-Assault' originally, but your detailed response above, helps me understand a little more :)
Update.

44th Arty Bgde

81st Para-Assault

129th Recon Rgt
Seperately, Looks like Ukraine is upgrading their stock of reserve T-72's (x300), to the Polish PT-91 MBT standard (NATO).

Ukroboronprom ready to modernize 300 T-72 tanks to meet NATO standards

Interesting to see what else Ukroboronprom can actually upgrade & standardise from reserve/ inventory warstocks (if any).
 

dprijadi

New Member
feanor, thanks for continuing the updates..

im curious though, on your opinion , regarding the rumored renewed ukraine military offensive after april.. (from Col Cassad site)!do you find this rumor plausible ?

also just today the col cassad site posted info on ukraine military activities all along the front lines (artilery attacks), is this just harrasing fire to entice the rebels to break the minsk 2 ?
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Cheers again

Then why the distinction? Example 25th Airborne (and the recent 81st Airborne) vs. 79th Airmobile?

I think you mentioned the new 81st Bgde, as 'Para-Assault' originally, but your detailed response above, helps me understand a little more :)
It's getting really weird and the names of units are less and less reflective of their contents and capabilities. I'm honestly doing my best to get some sort of clarity into the situation.

Seperately, Looks like Ukraine is upgrading their stock of reserve T-72's (x300), to the Polish PT-91 MBT standard (NATO).

Ukroboronprom ready to modernize 300 T-72 tanks to meet NATO standards

Interesting to see what else Ukroboronprom can actually upgrade & standardise from reserve/ inventory warstocks (if any).
As far as I can tell this is more of an idea, then a concrete plan. Given the hefty price tag, the large scale proposed, and the awful condition of Ukrainian T-72s, I don't think this is going to happen.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
feanor, thanks for continuing the updates..

im curious though, on your opinion , regarding the rumored renewed ukraine military offensive after april.. (from Col Cassad site)!do you find this rumor plausible ?

also just today the col cassad site posted info on ukraine military activities all along the front lines (artilery attacks), is this just harrasing fire to entice the rebels to break the minsk 2 ?
I don't know if Ukraine is going to resume the offensive, but it's looking more and more like fighting will resume. The Occupied Territories Law the Rada passed is a direct attempt to sabotage Minsk-2, and the list of cities and villages that get self-government under the Special Status law passed doesn't match the actual cities and villages under rebel control. As far as I can tell, they're intentionally keeping the conflict alive, instead of trying to wind it down. It doesn't help that the west seems to have placed the responsibility for maintaining Minsk-2 squarely on Moscow. It's slightly disconcerting that they're unwilling to consider that Kiev might be the one to break the agreement.

Shelling is continuing from mainly the Ukrainian side, as far as I can tell, and it's fairly isolated. Given that arty is in the hands of various irregular formations on both sides, I wouldn't read too much into the occasional exchange of fire. Real attempts at an offensive, like the Azov Rgt drive into Shirokino are one thing, an occasional firefight or arty barrage is another.
 
It's getting really weird and the names of units are less and less reflective of their contents and capabilities. I'm honestly doing my best to get some sort of clarity into the situation.
I know and appreciate all the detail you have provided. I was just doing a paper exercise and looking at capability-variance at the Bgde level.

Do you know if Ukraine actually have any Mi-6/26 in inventory/ warstocks? I can only find vague references to the 7th Army Aviation Bgde putting their Mi-26's into storage quite some time ago, when converting to Mi-8/Mi-24 mix and again with no real figures attached (some 10yr old source's have it at ~8-13 units)

Cheers again for the all clarifications :)

As far as I can tell this is more of an idea, then a concrete plan. Given the hefty price tag, the large scale proposed, and the awful condition of Ukrainian T-72s, I don't think this is going to happen.
Very true, I guess we will have to watch for further developments on this. Its quite possible there is another angle to this story, but that would be me speculating a little further than I want to for the moment.

EDIT; A tad old (~2 months), but I seemed to have missed this (sorry if you posted on this).. KMDB undertaking the development of converting old stock of T-64's to IFV's (previously known as BMPT-64, amongst other names) with a nice array of mounted firepower. No potential numbers mentioned, but it's one platform they should have in abundance and quite an improvement in armour & self-protection, over other older IFV's in use.. I like the look of it, to be honest - Ukraine restarting T-64 IFV development - IHS Janes360

Cost obviously still an issue in undertaking this project
 
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Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Do you know if Ukraine actually have any Mi-6/26 in inventory/ warstocks? I can only find vague references to the 7th Army Aviation Bgde putting their Mi-26's into storage quite some time ago, when converting to Mi-8/Mi-24 mix and again with no real figures attached (some 10yr old source's have it at ~8-13 units)
The last Mi-6 flew in Ukraine 8 years ago. Now they're all retired. There's even a video of the last flight. There are Mi-26s in Ukraine, but how many can fly is unclear. Maybe none, since we haven't seen any used in this conflict. Wikipedia says Ukraine inherited 22 of them, but they're all in storage.

Прощальный полёт вертолёта Ми-6 на Украине! - ЛюбительÑкое видео - AVSIM.su

A tad old (~2 months), but I seemed to have missed this (sorry if you posted on this).. KMDB undertaking the development of converting old stock of T-64's to IFV's (previously known as BMPT-64, amongst other names) with a nice array of mounted firepower. No potential numbers mentioned, but it's one platform they should have in abundance and quite an improvement in armour & self-protection, over other older IFV's in use.. I like the look of it, to be honest - Ukraine restarting T-64 IFV development - IHS Janes360

Cost obviously still an issue in undertaking this project[/I]
Same as the idea of upgrading their T-72 fleet. Expensive, complicated, and rather unrealistic. The T-64 IFV project has been around for a little while. They have a hard time producing small batches of BTR-3/4s. They can't mass upgrade their T-64s under the very simple Bulat program, even though they did manage to upgrade iirc ~90 tanks during the Yanukovich era. How are they going to pull off the much more complicated task of re-manufacturing them into those IFVs?

I'm not saying it's impossible, no way no how, but I think it's fairly unlikely.
 
Thanks Feanor. Appreciate the response. :) Wiki numbers - as I'm sure you do - are always taken with caution.

I fully agree with the cost and the good point on very low historical production output rates, but in my opinion, we will see these IFV's (T-64 chassis) in the field (albeit in small numbers), by year's end.

Just to note, the number of T-64BM Bulats were ~76 (2012) and I believe are close to double that now (~150) from various sources (minus losses). A limiting production factor to be considered, is down to 1st Arm Bgde was the only unit to be equipped with T-64BM Bulat MBT. That production output plan is obviously in the toilet now..

Having said all, production output has changed in the last six months and all the following production & repair plants have adopted a daily three shift policy.

- KMDB Malyshev Plant - T-72, T-64 & BTR-3/4 (& possibly some T-84 Oplot)
- MBTZ Mykolayiv Arms Plant - BTR-70
- Lviv Armored Plant - BTR-60PB, BTR-80 & BDRM
- Zhytomyr Armored Plant* - BMD, BMP & BREM

* I understand Zhytomyr is requesting approval to upgrade/ convert other armoured vehicle-types, but is awaiting for some sort of bureaucratic sign-off.

KMDB in particular, I'm sure is focusing on domestic concerns as of this point going forward. I haven't seen an export order's for quite some time now. I think you mentioned 1-2 deliveries on pending export contracts for BTR-3/4's (or maybe a MBT), were understandably cancelled by the Ukrainian Govt, for the vehicles to be put into Army's somewhat, haphazard vehicle allocation system..

Do you know if the RF have looked into development of this particular chassis as an IFV-variant previously? At 34tons + add-on SP, it looks attractive.

[nomedia]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkO--ktx2jw[/nomedia]


T-64 compares with BMP-64
BMP-64 profile

Looks like the first prototype was in '05 and its uses a BTR-3/4 wheeled suspension. 2-3 crew + 8 dismounts.
 
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